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Performing "good works" to be saved shows a stark resemblance to living under law; to live under the law is to deny the work of Christ, who fulfilled the law. We who are in Christ live by grace.
It amazes me how the gift is "by grace", yet so many attempt to make it a meritorious system. Why???Why ruin the greatness of it!?!
If righteousness is obtained by works, then Romans 8:1 is a false and misleading statement. End of story.
Why???
[3] To defend the Great Command, "Thou shall not mess with free will."
I am puzzled that you would take a simple rebuttal and read into it far more than I have said
Where does Paul ever deny that good works are the basis for ultimate salvation. Certainly not in Eph 2:9, since the "works" whose salvific power Paul denies are clearly not "good works" but the works, or practices of the Jewish Law - the Torah. And certainly not at the end of Romans 3 where Paul, again, denies the salvific power of the works of the Torah, not good works.You appear to be making Paul contradict himself. Good works, the kind that are acceptable to God, are the result of Salvation, not its basis.
You are not reading the phrase "according to" as I read it. If one is given X according to Y, then Y is the basis, the grounds for which one is given X.Those in Romans 2, who persist in doing good, etc., are acceptable to God, not on the basis of those deeds, but rather, those deeds show the condition of their heart before Him. Likewise for those doing evil.
it has to do with context. One, your quote, dealt with Isreal not individual sinners.your missing the point!
The issue is not about the circumstances of God's DELIGHTING to destroy sinners , but over the blatant proof texting of those who say "God wants everyone saved because he doesn't delight in the death of anyone" , such is clearly false .
It is not a matter of will. It is a completed historicial event that He did in fact save every human being from destruction of death. He willed it through Christ and Christ accomplished that event by His Resurrection. All men will stand in judgement, none, not a single human being was lost to death and destruction. But many will perish spiritually at that judgement, which can ONLY occur because He had saved all men from death, or annihilation through the condemnation of Adam. Saved them so that all men might have the free choice to believe and be in communion and fulfill man's created purpose.There are thousands of persons who God himself ordered to be wiped off the face of this earth , again circumstances aren't being debated , just the presumption that God wills to save every person , which is clearly error.
It aligns well with scripture if one understands it as it has always been understood without overriding scripture with a reformed theology that cannot be found in scripture.Furthermore your argument doesn't work , it cannot work ............... unless you believe in second "chance" salvation after physical destruction !
But that Grace saved all of mankind. That is why it is ALL GRACE, because man cannot effect nor affect anything Christ did on the Cross. Man is powerless to save Himself which is why Christ needed to save man.God doesn't reject a covenant of Good works and replace it with another covenant of good works , instead He removes all grounds of boasting , good works of any kind cannot save , otherwise Grace is no longer Grace .
the FREE GIFT is LIFE TO THE WORLD. He is the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD.One needs to carefully distinguish between REWARD and FREE GIFT , all reward is works related , Salvation is NEVER our "reward" , it is the exact opposite of reward , it is sheer Grace , that is , God's ACTIVE good favour towards us saves us.
Cygnusx1,
it has to do with context. One, your quote, dealt with Isreal not individual sinners.
It is not a proof text to say that God does not delight in the destruction of the sinner. If he had no compunction, He would not have saved His creation since we were all already condemned to destruction.
It is not a matter of will. It is a completed historicial event that He did in fact save every human being from destruction of death. He willed it through Christ and Christ accomplished that event by His Resurrection. All men will stand in judgement, none, not a single human being was lost to death and destruction. But many will perish spiritually at that judgement, which can ONLY occur because He had saved all men from death, or annihilation through the condemnation of Adam. Saved them so that all men might have the free choice to believe and be in communion and fulfill man's created purpose.
Since Christ redeemed all mankind, He seeks to save their souls as well. He desires that ALL men believe, He does not delight in the fact that many will reject Him and He will pass judgement on those individuals. The circumstances are ALWAYS the same, for those who reject Him, and sustain that rejection in this life will be eternally spiritually separated from Him.
It aligns well with scripture if one understands it as it has always been understood without overriding scripture with a reformed theology that cannot be found in scripture.
It was considered relevant to Paul:This text from Romans 7 has nothing to do with the experience of the Christian and therefore is entirely irrelevant to any discussion of what is fundamentally going on when the Christian sins -as we all know s/he does.
So um, he's telling Gentiles "not of works" but really meaning "not of Law".Where does Paul ever deny that good works are the basis for ultimate salvation. Certainly not in Eph 2:9, since the "works" whose salvific power Paul denies are clearly not "good works" but the works, or practices of the Jewish Law - the Torah. And certainly not at the end of Romans 3 where Paul, again, denies the salvific power of the works of the Torah, not good works.
the salvation of our souls, individually is by and through faith. If Christ had not saved mankind, no one could believe, no one would exist beyond this temporal life. Everyone of NECESSITY must be saved from death in order to even be able to believe.salvation is through faith not all men have faith , therefore not everyone is saved ..thus is the teaching of scripture from the beginning ..
If all humanity is saved , then Paul's Prayer is pointless ;
don't hold your breath. I already know that there is very little that we will agree on if anything. Calvinism and reformed theology just does not align with the Gospel once given.apart from that we might agree on some things , but I will not hold my breathe
Cygnus,
..............
All men have faith. All men are created in God's Image, all men have a link to the divine by virture of possessing a rational soul. .......
I have no trouble with believing scripture either, just your opinion. Another great proof text thinking it supports the concept that ALL men don't have faith. Here as elsewhere those that disbelieve, those that reject, those that are wicked do not have faith. When we do not use the gift we have, when we reject that faith, that knowledge of God, it is taken from us. Read the parable of the lost talent. Understand that those that reject God eventually are left to their unbelief. Rom 1:26. In order to become an unbeliever one must deny the faith and knowledge given, also in Rom 1:18-24.for all the huff and puff of infallibility , I don't trust your words only scripture is without error.
Cygnus,
I have no trouble with believing scripture either, just your opinion. Another great proof text thinking it supports the concept that ALL men don't have faith. Here as elsewhere those that disbelieve, those that reject, those that are wicked do not have faith. When we do not use the gift we have, when we reject that faith, that knowledge of God, it is taken from us. Read the parable of the lost talent. Understand that those that reject God eventually are left to their unbelief. Rom 1:26. In order to become an unbeliever one must deny the faith and knowledge given, also in Rom 1:18-24.
Cygnus,
I have no trouble with believing scripture either, just your opinion. Another great proof text thinking it supports the concept that ALL men don't have faith. Here as elsewhere those that disbelieve, those that reject, those that are wicked do not have faith. When we do not use the gift we have, when we reject that faith, that knowledge of God, it is taken from us. Read the parable of the lost talent. Understand that those that reject God eventually are left to their unbelief. Rom 1:26. In order to become an unbeliever one must deny the faith and knowledge given, also in Rom 1:18-24.
Cygnus,
I recognize that it would be quite difficult to see scripture as it is when such a view as Calvinism, "reformed faith" is superimposed over it. A very harsh god who embodies both love, hate, sin and evil. Deconstructs man into a mere beast to be manipulated by an sovereign god that has determined all events and actions of those creatures. Makes Christ's work as mere theater for which the effect has already been preordained from the foundations of the earth.
To actually think that God created man for a purpose and that man is a responsible being in aligning his actions with that of the will of God for which revelation is actually necessary is void in a reformed philosophy. After 400 years of this ever increasing humanistic, secularistic, individualized religion all moral absolutes have been dissolved since none are essential for the salvation of a human being's soul.
Why would faith be given any greater weight than the will of man as God has created Him In His Image to be an interactive, responsible creature in communion with God in a reformed view.
For most it has truly become, whatever will be will be. I can do what I desire since it is irrelevant to the final end. God is relegated to a fatalistic evil force of nature.
When Luther was asked why he changed words in his german Bible, his answer was because I said so. And why he wanted to get rid of several NT books because they so clearly opposed his own dogmas.
Because in Calvin's view God did not allow free will, Calvin saw no reason either. He became the authority unto himself in Geneva and established strict rules of conduct to offset the absence of man's free will.
This is why you and I will never agree on anything respective of historical Christianity.
Cygnus,
I recognize that it would be quite difficult to see scripture as it is when such a view as Calvinism, "reformed faith" is superimposed over it. A very harsh god who embodies both love, hate, sin and evil. Deconstructs man into a mere beast to be manipulated by an sovereign god that has determined all events and actions of those creatures. Makes Christ's work as mere theater for which the effect has already been preordained from the foundations of the earth.
To actually think that God created man for a purpose and that man is a responsible being in aligning his actions with that of the will of God for which revelation is actually necessary is void in a reformed philosophy. After 400 years of this ever increasing humanistic, secularistic, individualized religion all moral absolutes have been dissolved since none are essential for the salvation of a human being's soul.
Why would faith be given any greater weight than the will of man as God has created Him In His Image to be an interactive, responsible creature in communion with God in a reformed view.
For most it has truly become, whatever will be will be. I can do what I desire since it is irrelevant to the final end. God is relegated to a fatalistic evil force of nature.
When Luther was asked why he changed words in his german Bible, his answer was because I said so. And why he wanted to get rid of several NT books because they so clearly opposed his own dogmas.
Because in Calvin's view God did not allow free will, Calvin saw no reason either. He became the authority unto himself in Geneva and established strict rules of conduct to offset the absence of man's free will.
This is why you and I will never agree on anything respective of historical Christianity.
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