Fasting with the shrimps?

~Anastasia~ said:

That’s basically where I am. I could technically be allowed to have shrimp, crab, and lobster during the fast. (If I could afford it lol)

But I can guarantee it would defeat the entire purpose of fasting for me. It would be a treat and a delicacy.

On the other hand, eating a blander version of what I eat 365 days a year, while not technically “allowed” ... is much more in keeping with the spirit of the fast for me.

LOL, if I could have a feast of bread, fruit, pasta, potatoes, beans, rice, and honey - I’d feel like I was eating a special holiday meal! And those are all Lenten foods.

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yep, and that's where the spiritual father comes in. one of my godsisters has a stomach issue where she can't digest plant protein properly, so she has to eat meat. she just keeps it really simple.

daydreameranastasia said:

Could you please explain further? Is it because of the price of shrimp?
Oh and there’s this joke: Hamburger helper without the hamburger is just called helper lol!

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Right, meat was a luxury item or at best it was salted for preservation. Ideally during the fast, a person might skip a meal or have fish or well worse, shellfish. When I was living in Boston, there was a story about prisoners in the 18th century complaining that they were only given lobster for their meals. They would give the money they might have spent on a luxury food to the poor. In today's terms, with modern storage methods, we can have seafood even if we live a thousand miles from the nearest ocean. We can even make jokes about avocado toast being fast-friendly but in all honesty, avocados are not native in my area, but oysters, crabs and clams are! So in a practical sense, we should have a burger and donate the money we would have spent on our fast-friendly shrimp to the poor.

Andrei D said:

Well I keep ALL my meals "really simple". My way of eating excludes almost everything people call "treats". Well, a few days a week I have blueberries and once in a while home made chocolate mousse with nuts My meals are almost always meat or fish and a side of salad or sauteed veggies. On a normal day, eat a small meal (eggs) and a large meal (meat and veggies) within a 4-5 hours "window" and nothing for the rest of the 24.

I also occasionally water fast (no food at all) for 30-36 hours. For me, occasional no-food-at-all days are important to maintain insulin sensitivity and stay off insulin (I was on >100 units / day injections, now I'm on zero). I was on 3 other diabetes pills, now I'm on half of one of them. I try to do that Wednesdays and Fridays because frankly it's easier than eating fasting foods.

That's why I'm wondering how I should define Fasting (in terms of food, obviously there is far more to Fasting than food choices) from this starting point?

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talk to your priest, then talk to your doctor

interesting point about the avocado toast and eating seafood when one is landlocked.

As someone living by the coast, I have thought about trying to eat more locally, perhaps taking it to the extreme and literally eating from the coast. Seen videos of people catching cockles, mussels, and razor clams. A local dish is laverbread (seaweed)...can't say I've tried it myself, but I can imagine that engaging with food immediately within one's locality surely accentuates one's link with their forebears.

Fortunately for me I also live near a lot of delicious lamb but they have the pesky habit of having backbones

Dewi Sant said:

interesting point about the avocado toast and eating seafood when one is landlocked.

As someone living by the coast, I have thought about trying to eat more locally, perhaps taking it to the extreme and literally eating from the coast. Seen videos of people catching cockles, mussels, and razor clams. A local dish is laverbread (seaweed)...can't say I've tried it myself, but I can imagine that engaging with food immediately within one's locality surely accentuates one's link with their forebears.

Fortunately for me I also live near a lot of delicious lamb but they have the pesky habit of having backbones

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Even the local stores sell baskets for catching crabs where I live. You just have to get a license similar to fishing or hunting.

Does boneless leg of lamb count?

Personally, I usually have shrimp and fish during some fasts. I try to avoid it more during Lent, but if I'm going to give in (it happens) than I'd rather succumb to fish or shrimp than meat.

Best thing to do with fasting and dietary restrictions is to speak with your spiritual father if you have one, or your local priest.

gurneyhalleck1 said:

That was gentle!

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I thought after all these years here you'd have a little more familiarity with the Scots

gurneyhalleck1 said:

It always cracked me up that God forbade shellfish to the Chosen in the OT. Jews talk about how God was choosing those types of seafood to prohibit as they are bottom-feeders, not healthy….fast forward to Orthodoxy——bottom feeders are the ONLY choice over the healthy stuff!

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Having that fulfilled covenant does have its perks, don't it?

praise God!

Your issue is resolved, but for the "casual Orthodox" who see this thread, I offer these thoughts, although I am not an expert.
If one has a health condition that limits your ability to consume certain foods - particularly those I mention below - then speak with a priest to tailor an approach to fasting for you.

To my knowledge, the types of foods one should fast from is standard among the Orthodox. To what extent one fasts can vary by tradition (Greek, Russian, Serbian, etc.) My view, and I believe I heard this said by a priest, is that no one is worthy of the Holy Gifts. So, there is nothing any of us can do as preparation to receive Them. It is important therefore to shape our attitude on what we are about to do - that is more important than what we to in particular. And the other important element is that denial of food is only one component of preparation to receive the Gifts. There is charity, and prayer, and good works, and more generally trying to be the nicest version of yourself in a God-pleasing manner.

So, as to the foods, generally no animal products - no hamburgers, no bone-in or boneless leg of lamb, none of that - but there are exceptions. One exception is what you identified, that is seafood that does not have a backbone. So, shrimp and squid and octopus and clams and mussels- these are NOT "bottom feeders" - and crabs, etc. Treats or not, they are valid ways to get protein.

No milk or dairy products as they are animal products.

No olive oil. This was a denial element in the fasting as it was the standard liquid oil of the early Church. (There may be a more Scriptural basis for olive oil being denied.) Today there are all sorts of liquid vegetable oils, so by canon there is no great sacrifice. You can be creative and limit your oil to special occasions.

No wine or other alcohol. Another denial element.

Certain Lenten days fish and wine and olive oil (I think olive oil) can be consumed. It is fairly intricate if one wants to closely follow the fasting rules during Lent or year round. And one needs to read the ingredients of prepared food. Bread can contain milk as the last ingredient, meaning (in the US) that it is the smallest ingredient by weight.

Today there are many foods that substitute for animal protein, not counting the "veggie meats" - I forget the term. Peanut butter and other nut/legume/seed butters come to mind. That is all the more reason to emphasize the spiritual and charity aspect of the fast. One priest said that one fasts to give the money saved to charity. It also reduces stress on the animal world, and gives a lot of work to fishermen!

You may want to intently fast - following the Orthodox rules - for certain aspects of Lent, such as the week before Lazarus Saturday or of course Holy Week. Then have a more relaxed fast for the remainder. But such talk are fighting words in some traditions. Just kidding, but not really.

cradleGO said:

No olive oil. This was a denial element in the fasting as it was the standard liquid oil of the early Church. (There may be a more Scriptural basis for olive oil being denied.) Today there are all sorts of liquid vegetable oils, so by canon there is no great sacrifice. You can be creative and limit your oil to special occasions.

No wine or other alcohol. Another denial element

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I believe the olive oil and wine were fasted from primarily because they were traditionally contained in animal skins, not as an element of denial.

prodromos said:

I believe the olive oil and wine were fasted from primarily because they were traditionally contained in animal skins, not as an element of denial.

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I heard that as well

prodromos said:

I believe the olive oil and wine were fasted from primarily because they were traditionally contained in animal skins, not as an element of denial.

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Okay. I can see wine falling into the "touched by animal" category, but not olive oil. I would like to read something authoritative.

gurneyhalleck1 said:

Low carb here as well. I’m allergic to shrimp and lobster, etc. I eat a bit of salmon in their place…with approval.

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If sea insects don't work, you can always try Locusts.

Lain Iwakura said:

If sea insects don't work, you can always try Locusts.

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I remember some of the monks on Mt Athos having a chuckle over the fact that pretty much all Bible translations translate "ακρίδες" as "locusts", when it also has the less known meaning of "young shoots", being the tips of new growth. The root of the word is "ακρη", which means "pinnacle" or "end or extent" of something.

prodromos said:

I remember some of the monks on Mt Athos having a chuckle over the fact that pretty much all Bible translations translate "ακρίδες" as "locusts", when it also has the less known meaning of "young shoots", being the tips of new growth. The root of the word is "ακρη", which means "pinnacle" or "end or extent" of something.

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that's what I learned in Seminary

I mostly get my fasting tips from Nirvana.

"It's okay to eat fish
Cause they don't have any feelings
Mmm-mmm"

Andrei D said:

Wow, really??? I can see how we get "acronym" from there... and a bunch of medical terms like acromegaly and acrocyanosis and acral paresthesias. Love it


But... thinking of this Sunday, so is St. John the Baptizer here eating "young shoots and honey" or "locusts and honey"...
Matthew 3:4
τροφὴ ἦν αὐτοῦ ἀκρίδες καὶ μέλι
Seriously tell me if you guys are joking Not that it makes a profound difference...

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Young shoots and honey. not unlike the pottage eaten by the sons of the prophets in the Old Testament except that theirs was cooked.

prodromos said:

Young shoots and honey. not unlike the pottage eaten by the sons of the prophets in the Old Testament except that theirs was cooked.

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yeah, if it was the bug, I suspect most of the time he would have been on the hunt and not preaching and baptizing.