Fast & Furious

Assuredcw · May 19, 2012

Quoting from this link, this is what the Attorney General had to say to Rep. Raul Labrador, R-Idaho at one of the hearings:

Attorney General Eric Holder Disgusted by Personal Attacks at Fast and Furious Hearing - ABC News

"...There [are] a whole bunch of things that I could say about what you just did, and maybe this is the way you do things, you know, in Idaho or wherever you’re from. But understand something. What I’ve done — I’m proud of the work that I’ve done as attorney general of the United States. And looked at fairly– I think that I’ve done, you know, a pretty good job. Have I been perfect? No. Have I made mistakes? Yes. Do I treat the members of this committee with respect? I always hope that I do. And what you have just done is, if nothing else, disrespectful. And if you don’t like me, that’s one thing, but you should respect the fact that I hold an office that is deserving of respect. And, you know, maybe you’re new to this committee. I don’t know. I don’t know how long you’ve been here. But my hope would be that, you know, we can get beyond that kind of interaction, that kind of treatment of a witness, whether it’s me or somebody else, because I think in some ways what you did was fundamentally unfair, just not right.”

That's telling him! AG Holder has been around for a long time, and perhaps Rep. Raul Labrador, R-Idaho hasn't been around long enough to understand how things are supposed to work. I'm not sure why Congressman Issa doesn't know, though...

Assuredcw · May 24, 2012

I still can't find the story I read on Christmas about Eric Holder being cleared. But here is a link dated January that gives this same story with more detail (the story I read was very short):

In new 'Fast and Furious' report, Democrats clear Justice appointees of wrongdoing | Fox News

Quoting from it:

Democrats investigating the failed gun-running probe known as "Operation Fast and Furious" are laying the blame at the feet of officials in Arizona, saying in a new report that lawmakers from both sides of the aisle have "obtained no evidence" implicating high-level political appointees in Washington.
At the same time, the report reveals that two top Justice Department officials, in previously undisclosed interviews, insisted they would have taken action if they had the relevant details, and said it is "absurd" and unfair to suggest they knew early-on about the tactics of Fast and Furious.
Titled "Fatally Flawed: Five Years of Gunwalking in Arizona," much of the report is a historical overview of "gunwalking operations" dating back to 2006, and in a letter to Republicans accompanying the report, the ranking member of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, Rep. Elijah Cummings, D-Md., said he told his staff "to focus on the facts we have discovered rather than the heated and sometimes inaccurate rhetoric."
"It is clear that ATF agents in Phoenix and prosecutors in the Arizona U.S. Attorney's Office embarked on a deliberate strategy not to arrest suspected straw purchasers while they attempted to make larger cases against higher-level targets," the report reads.
"Although these officials claimed they had no probable cause to arrest any straw purchasers at the time, allowing hundreds of illegally purchased military-grade assault weapons to fall into the hands of violent drug cartels over the course of five years created an obvious and inexcusable threat to public safety on both sides of the border."
The report adds that problems arose during investigations even under the Bush administration, as hundreds of weapons were lost in Mexico, but "rather than halting operations after flaws became evident, (ATF agents in Arizona) launched several similarly reckless operations over the course of several years, also with tragic results."....

I am still not finished reading this article. It is very, very long...

Rion · May 24, 2012

Am I wrong, or was Nixon not directly involved with Watergate, but was undone because he tried to cover it up? Wouldn't that be the same here?

Assuredcw · May 25, 2012

Uh, no, because unlike Nixon, Eric Holder is the top member of Federal law enforcement and he does have secrets to keep from the public, if he is to perform his job at all.

This would include providing documentation to people without the appropriate security clearances, because too many people would know the identities of Federal witnesses. I am only a member of the public, and I was able to figure this out. So I really don't know what Issa's problem is.

He doesn't trust Holder, but he needs to familiarize himself with precedent. You don't go on a fishing expedition with the Justice Dept. You either produce your smoking gun and get rid of Holder, or you let him do his job.

Billnew · May 25, 2012

The Justice Department, the memo asserted, has issued false denials, given answers intended to misdirect investigators, sought to intimidate witnesses, unlawfully withheld subpoenaed documents, and waited to be confronted with indisputable evidence before acknowledging uncomfortable facts.

I believe they have enough evidence to charge him, it doesn't mean he will be found guilty.
I agree, F&F started before AG took over, but I believe the majority of illegal actions took place while he was in charge. He may or may not be covering up, but if there is doubt, better to have it sorted out in court, rather then let it fester in the court of public oppinion.

If someone accuses someone of hiding something, better to have someone to review it, then to just dismiss it as a political attack, exspecially when people have died because of this action.

Who knew what when? How high up did it go? Who could have prevented this and didn't?

Not saying its true, but:
Obama might have known, Biden might have known, Any high ranking person in power could have known,

When goverment offiicals decide they can break the law to defend the law, it sets a very dangerous precidence.
Firearms laws are there for a reason, and these goverment officials dismissed them without regard, which cost the lives of several people and armed many criminals.

Assuredcw · May 25, 2012

Billnew said:

I believe the majority of illegal actions took place while he was in charge.

That flies in the face of the detailed information Fox News came out with in January. I posted the link, and I believe it is on this same page.

Assuredcw · May 25, 2012

I think someone on the Republican side of the aisle in the House has figured out how to put this whole issue to rest:

Homeland Security IG Investigates Fast and Furious - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

Quoting from the link:

CBS News has learned a second Inspector General (IG) is investigating Operation Fast and Furious: Homeland Security.

As CBS News previously reported, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) had special agents from Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) assigned to Fast and Furious, which was run by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) out of Phoenix, Ariz. During that case and similar weapons trafficking operations, ATF allowed thousands of weapons to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. The idea was to capture the "big fish" in a cartel. The strategy was called to an abrupt halt after it was publicly exposed. Two weapons from Fast and Furious were used in the murder of Border Patrol agent Brian Terry in December 2010.

Investigative sources say ICE became involved in Fast and Furious in late 2009 when the agency began its own weapons smuggling probe and discovered the suspects were also being investigated by ATF. An ICE special agent was then put on the ATF case, and later replaced by a second special agent. That agent worked on Fast and Furious through February 2011, serving as a liaison between ATF and DHS. Law enforcement and investigative sources say the ICE special agent was also involved in investigation and surveillance activities.

Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano testified to Congress on Sept. 13, 2011, that she was unaware of Fast and Furious while it was under way. Napolitano said she could not recall when she first learned that Fast and Furious weapons were linked to Border Patrol Agent Terry's death.

Congressman Michael McCaul (R-TX) sits on the House Homeland Security Committee and requested the DHS IG investigation. The DHS IG has told Congressional staffers it expects to have a final report ready to deliver to Congress in early October.

I don't like that this issue would potentially be hanging over our heads until just before the election. But the information obtained by Fox News relating to the Democratic House investigation has convinced me that Holder was not involved, and furthermore that the people who were involved are potentially very dangerous if they are not removed immediately. Holder will be free to continue to investigate and prosecute in the meantime, without further interference. And that is good news for all of us!

Rion · May 25, 2012

Assuredcw said:
Uh, no, because unlike Nixon, Eric Holder is the top member of Federal law enforcement and he does have secrets to keep from the public, if he is to perform his job at all.

This would include providing documentation to people without the appropriate security clearances, because too many people would know the identities of Federal witnesses. I am only a member of the public, and I was able to figure this out. So I really don't know what Issa's problem is.

He doesn't trust Holder, but he needs to familiarize himself with precedent. You don't go on a fishing expedition with the Justice Dept. You either produce your smoking gun and get rid of Holder, or you let him do his job.

Picard's Epic Double Facepalm - YouTube

Assuredcw · May 25, 2012

Quoting again from the CBS link above:

Congressman Michael McCaul (R-TX) sits on the House Homeland Security Committee and requested [an additional] Department of Homeland Security Inspector General investigation. The DHS IG has told Congressional staffers it expects to have a final report ready to deliver to Congress in early October.

There is nothing more for any of us to do at this point, but wait, and in the meantime Attorney General Holder is going to keep doing his job. Sounds like a win-win to me.

RETS · May 28, 2012

Assured- Are you really so naive?

Quoting from your quoting of the link:

Assuredcw said:
Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano testified to Congress on Sept. 13, 2011, that she was unaware of Fast and Furious while it was under way. Napolitano said she could not recall when she first learned that Fast and Furious weapons were linked to Border Patrol Agent Terry's death.

Are you aware that, of all people, Napolitano would be MOST aware of F&F, because it was taking place, not just in her state, but in places SHE LIVED AND WORKED IN?!

Assuredcw said:
I don't like that this issue would potentially be hanging over our heads until just before the election. But the information obtained by Fox News relating to the Democratic House investigation has convinced me that Holder was not involved, and furthermore that the people who were involved are potentially very dangerous if they are not removed immediately. Holder will be free to continue to investigate and prosecute in the meantime, without further interference. And that is good news for all of us!

Rion- We need to find a quadruple facepalm. The double ain't gonna cut it anymore.

Assuredcw · May 28, 2012

RETS said:
Assured- Are you really so naive?

Quoting from your quoting of the link:

Are you aware that, of all people, Napolitano would be MOST aware of F&F, because it was taking place, not just in her state, but in places SHE LIVED AND WORKED IN?!

It's happening at a lower level. I don't suspect Janet Napolitano either.

People who are at a high level, such as Eric Holder and Janet Napolitano, are really good at seeing the big picture and thinking things through. They have a vision and they know what they are trying to achieve and how to get there. They give direction to people, each one of them pieces of the puzzle that will achieve the big picture. That is why it is so important for employees to do EXACTLY what the boss tells them to do, and if they want to change it even a little bit they had better check first. What can mess this up is insubordination or corruption on the part of the people who REPORT to them. I know (even if you do not) that this kind of thing begins at a lower level, sometimes because the people at that level think they are smarter than the boss. It's a recipe for disaster and it keeps happening. Look at Walmart's recent violation of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act - this didn't happen at the very top, because the people at the top would not have chosen to be associated with bribing their way into a new market. But I think the person who dreamed this up and used his or her discretionary budget money for bribes, didn't choose to CHECK with the higher-ups first (who would have said, "Heck no!" had they simply been consulted). Now Walmart is embarrassed. So is Holder and so is Napolitano. People who don't do what they are told, and don't check with the boss when they get a bright idea, can have a radioactive effect on any organization, and their half-baked antics usually result in embarrassment for their employers. Holder, just like Walmart, needs to just get rid of the people who DID this, and tell everyone else, "Do exactly what I tell you, or you will lose your job and be subject to criminal prosecution."

RETS · May 28, 2012

Oi boomin' vey.

Markusanthem · May 28, 2012

Assuredcw said:
It's happening at a lower level. I don't suspect Janet Napolitano either.

People who are at a high level, such as Eric Holder and Janet Napolitano, are really good at seeing the big picture and thinking things through. They have a vision and they know what they are trying to achieve and how to get there. They give direction to people, each one of them pieces of the puzzle that will achieve the big picture. That is why it is so important for employees to do EXACTLY what the boss tells them to do, and if they want to change it even a little bit they had better check first. What can mess this up is insubordination or corruption on the part of the people who REPORT to them. I know (even if you do not) that this kind of thing begins at a lower level, sometimes because the people at that level think they are smarter than the boss. It's a recipe for disaster and it keeps happening. Look at Walmart's recent violation of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act - this didn't happen at the very top, because the people at the top would not have chosen to be associated with bribing their way into a new market. But I think the person who dreamed this up and used his or her discretionary budget money for bribes, didn't choose to CHECK with the higher-ups first (who would have said, "Heck no!" had they simply been consulted). Now Walmart is embarrassed. So is Holder and so is Napolitano. People who don't do what they are told, and don't check with the boss when they get a bright idea, can have a radioactive effect on any organization, and their half-baked antics usually result in embarrassment for their employers. Holder, just like Walmart, needs to just get rid of the people who DID this, and tell everyone else, "Do exactly what I tell you, or you will lose your job and be subject to criminal prosecution."

They did follow orders.

The hair-brained objective was to stir up sentiment against the 2nd amendment.

The people at the top, including the POTUS, are responsible for the deaths and chaos their illegal gun-running scheme caused.

Assuredcw · May 28, 2012

You only have to read the newspaper (or scan the Internet) to make a similar observation, and it will be an empirical one. The numbers bear this pattern of behavior out. The people at the top have too much to lose, and the one thing they seem to have in common is dedication (evidenced by the hard work it took to get to where they are). The other people have less to lose, they don't care as much, and are too stupid to actually realize that they ARE stupid - LOL!

Markusanthem · May 28, 2012

Assuredcw said:
You only have to read the newspaper (or scan the Internet) to make a similar observation, and it will be an empirical one. The numbers bear this pattern of behavior out. The people at the top have too much to lose, and the one thing they seem to have in common is dedication (evidenced by the hard work it took to get to where they are). The other people have less to lose, they don't care as much, and are too stupid to actually realize that they ARE stupid - LOL!

And yet it was those whom you call "too stupid" who blew the whistle on the people at the top who were actually killing people by their policies for political gain.

You throw around the word "stupid" too loosely. It was stupid to devise a political strategy that killed people and now they are trying to cover it up. The people in the field had the moral courage to blow the whistle, knowing it wasn't right.

Rion · May 28, 2012

Holder, just like Walmart, needs to just get rid of the people who DID this, and tell everyone else, "Do exactly what I tell you, or you will lose your job and be subject to criminal prosecution."

I think that is what got him in this mess to begin with.

Congress: When did you know about this? Also, send us the docs on it, k?

Holder: Um.. yeah, I um.. didn't know about this until a while ago. I-I'll send you the docs, sure thing.

Holder: *sends only some*

Congress: What the...? It says you knew way before you told us! And... where are the rest of the docs we wanted?

Holder: Um... well, you see... *Grabs ATF supervisor* It's all his fault!

ATF Super: Wait, what?!

Holder: I'm your boss, take the fall for me.

ATF Super: Dangit, why---

Congress: Well?

ATF Super: Yeah, he's trying to pin it all on me; I'm not taking that.

Holder: *tightens hold on ATF Super's shoulder* Want to go fishing with Neri later? I hear Lake Tahoe is nice this time of year.

ATF Super: ...I plead the fifth!

Congress: ...

MachZer0 · May 28, 2012

Assuredcw said:
It's happening at a lower level. I don't suspect Janet Napolitano either.

People who are at a high level, such as Eric Holder and Janet Napolitano, are really good at seeing the big picture and thinking things through...

If they're so good at seeing the big picture, how did they manage to let Fast and Furious get so outof control?

Assuredcw · May 28, 2012

Markusanthem said:
They did follow orders.

The hair-brained objective was to stir up sentiment against the 2nd amendment.

The people at the top, including the POTUS, are responsible for the deaths and chaos their illegal gun-running scheme caused.

Well, we'll see, because I am sure that the Homeland Security Inspector General is quite as eager to get to the bottom of this, as anyone. I would put money on it's not being Eric Holder or Janet Napolitano, but someone several salary grades below them doing an unauthorized tweak.

If Eric Holder wanted to wage war against the 2nd Amendment, there are easier ways to do it than to spend years as a Federal judge, get appointed as US Attorney General, and then agree to a kamikaze mission that will force you to resign in disgrace. Please. This man is not crazy, and he is not stupid. If that's what President Obama wants, he isn't going to get Eric Holder to do it. Eric Holder would tell that young whippersnapper exactly what he could do with that idea, if he had been approached with something as crazy as that. And if it is so hard for you to see that a 60 plus year old man such as Holder has already established a very responsible pattern of behavior showing respect for established Federal law, then nothing is going to convince you of anything. You would be beyond common sense.

RETS · May 28, 2012

Assuredcw said:
If Eric Holder wanted to wage war against the 2nd Amendment, there are easier ways to do it than to spend years as a Federal judge, get appointed as US Attorney General, and then agree to a kamikaze mission that will force you to resign in disgrace.

But not nearly as many that would allow such a push to be lent credible, "factual" backing. Moreover, any other attempt by one less qualified would be looked at as the work of a nut.

I'm not saying such a push is taking place, forwarded by Holder- I'm saying you have your process wrong.

Assuredcw said:
This man is not crazy, and he is not stupid.

Look back at the now nearly twenty pages of this thread, and see if anyone is accusing him of being stupid. He's not- But a brilliant mind bent on the destruction of the Second Amendment would know that trying to wage war on it would not be possibly won by any other means.

Assuredcw said:
If that's what President Obama wants, he isn't going to get Eric Holder to do it. Eric Holder would tell that young whippersnapper exactly what he could do with that idea, if he had been approached with something as crazy as that.

Hmmm. How does that hold up with the actual facts of reality?

fmr. US dep. AG Eric Holder said:
"[the ruling that the DC ban on handguns in the home is unconstitutional] ...opens the door to more people having more access to guns and putting guns on the streets."

SOURCE

You can also find the full amicus brief here.

Then, of course, there's the 1995 statement Holder made regarding making guns "uncool." There is an alternate source for this video, but I want it known that I'm supplying only for the sake of an alternate source- I do not really appreciate nor agree with much of the content written about the video itself. That source is HERE. There's another video on YouTube that has the bit I'm talking about, but again, one should dismiss the rest of the message, as I'm only discussing his exact words and not someone else's opinion on it. That can be found HERE.
In short, Holder states that there ought to be "anti-gun" ads much like the anti-smoking ads we see on TV now. His exact quote is:

Eric Holder said:
We have to be repetitive about this ...and just really brainwash people into thinking about guns in a vastly different way.

Perhaps you remember, in 1999, there was legislation before Congress to ban gun shows? If you remember that, then you remember that Eric Holder was a special guest of Congress, called in (while he worked for Janet Reno), to advise them on the issue. His statement was that those who support gun ownership, (such as, but not limited to, the NRA), were little more than special interest groups that were cold and unfeeling- He then urged them to pass the bill. Here's the quote, which you can find on file in the Congressional archives:

"...special interest that value the cold hard steel of guns more than the lives of children, neighbors and police officers..."

Let's also not forget his op-ed, where he laid out a plan to virtually cripple the Second Amendment.

Eric Holder said:
In the wake of the horrific terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, the nation is eager for ways to increase security at home... Some citizens believe that they need to purchase firearms for self-protection. If the recent increase in firearms sales is attributable to people who may lawfully purchase firearms, that is the decision of the individual and not a matter that should be the subject of government oversight. ...We can no longer allow the purchase of firearms through the Internet or a newspaper ad, at a gun show or a flea market, or in any other type of sale... The stakes are simply too high. ...Unfortunately, the gaping holes in our current law have likely allowed thousands of undetected firearm purchases by criminals and terrorists.

SOURCE: Op-Ed, Washington Times (currently available only through archival membership)

Finally, there are his own statements during the Zimmerman/Travon case, but I digress. Quite honestly, there is more than enough material out there, in his own words, no less, to support the concern being shown here in this thread.

Assuredcw said:
And if it is so hard for you to see that a 60 plus year old man such as Holder has already established a very responsible pattern of behavior showing respect for established Federal law, then nothing is going to convince you of anything. You would be beyond common sense.

If you cannot see a man's full record for what it is, you are more so.

Assuredcw · May 28, 2012

He isn't going to resign in disgrace for ANYONE - he's past 60 years old and when he retires he is going to want his Federal pension.

It's ludicrous (I don't think RETS said it) to suggest that Obama and Holder are waging some sort of "War against the 2nd Amendment." Holder wouldn't do that, even if Obama would, but let me be clear - to suggest that either one of them would do this is crazy talk.

But RETS, you shouldn't be defending people who accuse them of such things, because there is even less evidence of that, than of the simple coverup you accuse Holder of perpetrating. No, I don't lack common sense by not buying the "2nd Amendment" claptrap. That's...nuts!

Fast & Furious

Should Attorney General Holder be held in contempt?

Yes, he should be held in contempt (explain)

No, he should not be held in contempt (explain)

I am not sure.

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