Fast & Furious

Assuredcw · Jun 24, 2012

Rion said:
...so Vylo and TerranceL are both closet-conservatives because they disagree with you?

There's no reason to involve Vylo. My point with TerranceL was that when he said that the problem with politicians is that they do the expedient thing rather than the right thing, I pointed out that that's politics. Politics is how you navigate the differing viewpoints in the electorate. You don't just do what you may WANT to do - you do what is expedient. A Republican commentator was discussing what might be expedient here, and TerranceL expressed disgust. You can't fault the commentator though - that's how politics works in a democracy.

Nobody agrees with me - that's already been established.

Assuredcw · Jun 24, 2012

RETS said:
And the hits just keep on coming.

Let me lay out the organizational structure of the ATF for you, okay?

The problem with your scenario is that there are about 8 other agencies that have this same structure, with the Deputy AG and the AG at the top.

So we are full circle - Attorney General Holder is several layers removed from whatever is happening in the field, and this is true in each of those agencies including ATF. We need to wait for the Homeland Inspector General investigation in November.

freezerman2000 · Jun 24, 2012

Assuredcw said:
RETS said:

And the hits just keep on coming.

Let me lay out the organizational structure of the ATF for you, okay?

The problem with your scenario is that there are about 8 other agencies that have this same structure, with the Deputy AG and the AG at the top.

So we are full circle - Attorney General Holder is several layers removed from whatever is happening in the field, and this is true in each of those agencies including ATF. We need to wait for the Homeland Inspector General investigation in November.

Click to expand...

What we need is an impartial investigator (independent). And we don't need to wait till November, we need the investigation ASAP to put this whole sorid mess behind us, no matter which way the ball bounces.

Assuredcw · Jun 24, 2012

Congressman McCaul (R-TX) already ordered the independent investigation you are speaking of. It is the Homeland Security Inspector General's investigation, and we are told that this is expected to take until November. Here's that link again:

Homeland Security IG Investigates Fast and Furious - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

freezerman2000 · Jun 24, 2012

Assuredcw said:
Congressman McCaul (R-TX) already ordered the independent investigation you are speaking of. It is the Homeland Security Inspector General's investigation, and we are told that this is expected to take until November. Here's that link again:

Homeland Security IG Investigates Fast and Furious - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

What I'm referring to is an ivestigator from OUTSIDE of the government.
There are quite a few that are quite capable.
That way, the findings will be impartial.

HerbieHeadley · Jun 24, 2012

Assuredcw said:
The problem with your scenario is that there are about 8 other agencies that have this same structure, with the Deputy AG and the AG at the top.

So we are full circle - Attorney General Holder is several layers removed from whatever is happening in the field, and this is true in each of those agencies including ATF. We need to wait for the Homeland Inspector General investigation in November.

We shouldn't have to wait till November and neither should Terry's family.
Holder knew everything and Issa and others have the evidence to prove that the DOJ knew about the treasonous tactics long before Terry's murder. This wantonly hideous scam against the American public was fully supported by this administration all the way to the top.

"Now lets consider some of the information chairman Darrell Issas House investigating committee has gathered much of it from whistleblowers, not Holders stonewallers.

Fast and Furious began in the fall of 2009, when agents in ATFs Phoenix office developed their strategy including the fateful gunwalking tactic with the U.S. attorney. But things really got going in January 2010. It was then that the case became an OCDETF investigation. This does not just happen in the blink of an eye. It is a deliberate process. ATF and the U.S. attorney had to apply to Main Justice for OCDETF status. A case gets approval for funding which can run well into the millions of dollars only if senior Justice Department officials, after studying the formally submitted proposal, determine that the investigation has great promise.

The Obama Justice Department made exactly that determination."

Fast and Furious and OCDETF - Andrew C. McCarthy - National Review Online#

MachZer0 · Jun 24, 2012

freezerman2000 said:
What I'm referring to is an ivestigator from OUTSIDE of the government.
There are quite a few that are quite capable.
That way, the findings will be impartial.

How about Patrick Fitzgerald. Our liberal friends seemed to love him during the Bush administration

freezerman2000 · Jun 24, 2012

MachZer0 said:
How about Patrick Fitzgerald. Our liberal friends seemed to love him during the Bush administration

Or Ken Starr, if he is still around.

MachZer0 · Jun 24, 2012

freezerman2000 said:
Or Ken Starr, if he is still around.

Starr would be my choice, especially since he's out of government

Assuredcw · Jun 24, 2012

freezerman2000 said:
What I'm referring to is an ivestigator from OUTSIDE of the government.
There are quite a few that are quite capable.
That way, the findings will be impartial.

People outside of the government aren't held to the strict conflict of interest rules that civil servants (IOW government officials) have to be held to, in a case in which those very outside interests of which you speak, might have a vested interest in the outcome.

Conflict of interest would absolutely be the norm in the private sector. That is why they are not involved in government functions. We went through this as a country already:

U.S. Civil Service Reform - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Going outside the government is no good, and was a problem before. You need someone who is bound by those very important civil service rules, including conflicts of interest, and who will be subject to the resulting extreme penalties of violating those rules. If a government official did something like this deliberately (for a bribe) they could die for it. Holder is the one who would decide that. But everything is structured so that the decider isn't the one who is directly involved in operations - he is there to insure that criminal penalties are applied to all of the situations he is investigating, including those of government officials who have conflicts of interest.

Unless the Homeland Security Inspector General finds something to the contrary, you need to go with the structure here. It just isn't set up for him to be directly involved in ALL of the activities of the FBI, DEA, ATF, etc. They just bring their evidence to him when they are done investigating, so he can pursue criminal penalties against people. He is the top "District Attorney" and the agencies are his "cops."

Anyway, it is important to not "mess up" the potential criminal cases against the people responsible for this. If Darrell Issa finds something out and Eric Holder is obstructed from being the first to discover it, then that could jeopardize the court case and the criminal penalties. The investigation needs to be conducted by the true investigator, or you won't have a case against the perpetrators. We shouldn't be willing to risk that.

freezerman2000 · Jun 24, 2012

An investigator from outside the gov. would have no conflicts of interest, which is why one is needed for this investigation.

Assuredcw · Jun 24, 2012

I know you don't necessarily "buy" it, but the Civil Service code was established for the simple reason that conflict of interest is the norm in the private sector. You need people who are subject to Civil Service rules to be involved in this. Going outside the government in a potentially criminal matter wouldn't be the thing to do.

freezerman2000 · Jun 24, 2012

Since when do Civil Service rules mean that they will be followed? Bureaucrats will always find a way to skirt the rules..

Assuredcw · Jun 24, 2012

That's where the penalties you would be subject to, would come in. You wouldn't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Bring in someone from the outside, and there will be NO RESTRAINTS on conflicts of interest. None whatsoever. It would be open sesame, and outside people would find out things they shouldn't know.

freezerman2000 · Jun 24, 2012

If you are old enough to remember Watergate, the hearings were on National TV(soaps did not play for months). THAT'S the kind of disclosure we need to have..The people of the US and Mexico have a right to know.
SOMEONE is covering something up, and we deserve no less than full disclosure

RETS · Jun 24, 2012

Assuredcw said:
The problem with your scenario is that there are about 8 other agencies that have this same structure, with the Deputy AG and the AG at the top.

So we are full circle - Attorney General Holder is several layers removed from whatever is happening in the field, and this is true in each of those agencies including ATF. We need to wait for the Homeland Inspector General investigation in November.

WHAT?!

If that's honestly what you got from all of that, then... Wow. Lord help you.

And God help anyone who ever again suggests in all seriousness "waiting till November." It needs to be done NOW, so we can find out who was involved THEN, and if they are elected politicians, make sure they DO NOT GET BACK INTO OFFICE IN NOVEMBER.

freezerman2000 said:
If you are old enough to remember Watergate, the hearings were on National TV(soaps did not play for months). THAT'S the kind of disclosure we need to have..The people of the US and Mexico have a right to know.
SOMEONE is covering something up, and we deserve no less.

I'm glad there's someone else in this thread who can appreciate the almost spooky similarities between what's going on now and what went on then.

Assuredcw · Jun 24, 2012

Originally Posted by freezerman2000

If you are old enough to remember Watergate, the hearings were on National TV(soaps did not play for months). THAT'S the kind of disclosure we need to have..The people of the US and Mexico have a right to know.
SOMEONE is covering something up, and we deserve no less.

No, I don't remember Watergate. But commentators have all referenced it, so my knowledge boils down to the following: "Just because Nixon used Executive Privilege, doesn't mean President Obama isn't allowed to."

He certainly waited long enough. But the Attorney General must have finally come to the same conclusion that I came to awhile ago - Darrell Issa is crazy. So he asked (he did ASK) the President to invoke Executive Privilege. Someone had to do something. But there is sufficient precedent from the Reagan Administration (read the OP), which is probably why President Obama took so long. He should NOT have had to do that.

HerbieHeadley · Jun 24, 2012

Assuredcw said:
That's where the penalties you would be subject to, would come in. .

You wouldn't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Bring in someone from the outside, and there will be NO RESTRAINTS

on conflicts of interest.

None whatsoever.

It would be open sesame,

and outside people would find out things they shouldn't know.

Vylo · Jun 24, 2012

HerbieHeadley said:
and outside people would find out things they shouldn't know.

Well, the death of several undercover agents would pretty bad. Holder should do full disclosure to the house committee. They will assume any responiblity for leaks, and should be tried for treason if anything he reveals leaves their confidence.

Assuredcw · Jun 24, 2012

This is Eric Holder's baby. It is going to be very hard to take it from him. People are accusing him of something, that the DOJ has been set up to prevent - he is separated from the "suspect operations" of the ATF by several bureaucratic layers that were designed to do just that. He doesn't get involved in day-to-day operations, SO THAT his ability to investigate and prosecute criminal misconduct in those operations is not compromised. He doesn't direct day-to-day ATF operations, but he is the one who HAS to get to the bottom of this, if criminal penalties are going to result. Issa cannot do this for him. Pretty soon, everyone is going to see that.

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