Fast & Furious

Assuredcw · Jun 23, 2012

Here's a little comic relief - an opinion piece from The Atlantic, featuring a funny video from The Colbert Report:

Politics - Andrew Cohen - The Real Scandal of Fast and Furious - The Atlantic

MachZer0 · Jun 23, 2012

Assuredcw said:
They'll only be successful when they "lie to defeat the liberals" if the electorate is in fact as ignorant as they think they are. (You do yourselves no favors by ONLY watching Fox News, folks! Pick up a local paper occasionally, and read it.)

Defeating the liberals doesn't do Republican voters any good, if THEY are being lied to, ALSO.

Speaking of lying, how many statements to Congress has Holder now had to retract because it turned he wasn't telling the truth?

Assuredcw · Jun 23, 2012

The ATF is several layers BELOW him and he had to investigate what happened. That is ample explanation for any discrepancies.

MachZer0 · Jun 23, 2012

Assuredcw said:
The ATF is several layers BELOW him and he had to investigate what happened. That is ample explanation for any discrepancies.

In addition, The Atlantic opinion piece suggests that the Obama Administration continued the program. I disagree with that theory, because I do not believe the ATF bothered to solicit the Attorney General's input on whether the program should be continued. I have been in many work situations in which people did not bother to keep the boss informed. People can be very stupid and downright evil.

They weren't discrepancies, they were lies. Lies to Congress I might add

Assuredcw · Jun 23, 2012

In addition, The Atlantic opinion piece suggests that the Obama Administration continued the program. I disagree with that theory, because I do not believe the ATF bothered to solicit the Attorney General's input on whether the program should be continued. I have been in many work situations in which people did not bother to keep the boss informed, or worse, actively saught to shield their activities from oversight and supervision. People can be very stupid and downright evil.

Vylo · Jun 23, 2012

MachZer0 said:
Speaking of lying, how many statements to Congress has Holder now had to retract because it turned he wasn't telling the truth?

Perhaps you should tell us when you are making the claim.

Blackguard_ · Jun 23, 2012

NightHawkeye said:
Thing is ... this is an asymmetrical battle. Each side plays by a different set of rules. One side has a religious base which fervently believes in morality and the difference between good and evil. The other side, not so much. Personal behavior matters to one side, but on the other ... morals are relative, even flexible, LOL.

Just the way it is ...

The way to defeat this arrogant administration is to again crush them at the polls ... just as happened in 2010.

I mostly agree, but the thing is, they don't have to play this as a partisan issue, and this shouldn't be a partisan issue. It's kind of baffling a scandal like does seem to be something of a partisan issue.

Like I said, Democrats/liberals are just as guilty of making this a partisan issue as any Republicans are, by "circling the wagons" as MachZero put it.

Republicans, whether taking the actual high road or cynically playing at it, should be talking about how this scandal is really non-partisan issue and ask why more Democrats and liberals aren't supporting the investigation of this crime.

Also, part of crushing Obama at the polls would be showing just how corrupt he and/or his administration is, but I also do not want to see people simply be voted out of office or replaced by a new administration for this. This isn't lying about getting some action in the Oval Office ,this is 300 odd counts of "accessory to murder" at least.

The democrats are just as bad, you want to cut waste from the social security program? Democrats put out ads saying that you want grandma eating dogfood.

And violating international arms smuggling treaties to arm Mexican drug cartels and leaving over 300 Mexicans and a couple Americans dead is A-OK so long as it can be used to push for more gun control.

TerranceL · Jun 23, 2012

Assuredcw said:
The ATF is several layers BELOW him and he had to investigate what happened. That is ample explanation for any discrepancies.

I know you know this because it's been pointed out to you multiple times.

The DOJ is to provide oversight for ther ATF. It is Holders job to know what they are doing.

And no when you give testimony before court or congress and you are sworn in and give false information that's perjury.

If he didn't know then he was apparently too stupid to say he didn't know.

TerranceL · Jun 23, 2012

Assuredcw said:
Uh, TerranceL? Let's stick to Fast & Furious on my thread, OK?

Thanks!

I see... so it's ok to respond to off topic posts.. when YOU do it.

Assuredcw said:
They'll only be successful when they "lie to defeat the liberals" if the electorate is in fact as ignorant as they think they are. (You do yourselves no favors by ONLY watching Fox News, folks! Pick up a local paper occasionally, and read it.)

Defeating the liberals doesn't do Republican voters any good, if THEY are being lied to, ALSO.

But when I respond to the exact same post it's off topic?

Please.

Blackguard_ · Jun 23, 2012

In addition, The Atlantic opinion piece suggests that the Obama Administration continued the program. I disagree with that theory, because I do not believe the ATF bothered to solicit the Attorney General's input on whether the program should be continued. I have been in many work situations in which people did not bother to keep the boss informed, or worse, actively saught to shield their activities from oversight and supervision. People can be very stupid and downright evil.

Bush era "Wide Receiver" is NOT Obmaa era "Fast and Furious".

Wide Reciever was canceled in 2007. It also had the cooperation of Mexican authorities and made a real, if failed, attempt to track the guns with RFID tags.

Fast and Furious was started under Obama, it was not a continuation of any Bush-era program by anybody at any level, Mexican authorities were not even told about it, and NO, I say again, NO, effort or plan was made to track the guns post-sale to cartel straw buyers.

Here's a little comic relief - an opinion piece from The Atlantic, featuring a funny video from The Colbert Report:

Yeah, that was a pretty silly op-ed. .

I see it falls hook line and sinker for the Mexican Gun Canard "Fast and Furious" was meant to support.

The guns from the US in cartel hands are really mostly from US military aid to Mexico and other countries by way of corruption and defection. That's how the cartels have access to heavier weapons such as grenades and RPGs you simply can't get at an Arizona gun show or store (or do they sell out before I can get there?).

As shown by Fast and Furious, gun stores are generally pretty good about refusing to sell to suspect buyers, not wanting to face charges and lose their license and all from an agency known for being heavy handed, besides having a conscience.

Assuredcw · Jun 23, 2012

Holder's input was not saught. I would put money on it. I would be willing to bet (and I would win, too) that the ATF employees said to themselves, "So Bush is gone now, and it's Obama and Holder. Screw 'em!" and then they just did exactly as they pleased. That is what I think. Furthermore, this kind of thing happens all the time, when someone "new" gets put in charge, and that person is either a woman or a minority. This happens all the time.

It is an uphill battle to supervise employees with an "attitude," because they don't want you to know what they are doing. You aren't supposed to know.

Edited: Holder is going to nail those miscreants to the wall!!!!!!!

RETS · Jun 23, 2012

Assuredcw said:
Holder's input was not saught. I would put money on it. I would be willing to bet (and I would win, too) that the ATF employees said to themselves, "So Bush is gone now, and it's Obama and Holder. Screw 'em!" and then they just did exactly as they pleased. That is what I think. Furthermore, this kind of thing happens all the time, when someone "new" gets put in charge, and that person is either a woman or a minority. This happens all the time.

It is an uphill battle to supervise employees with an "attitude," because they don't want you to know what they are doing. You aren't supposed to know.

Edited: Holder is going to nail those miscreants to the wall!!!!!!!

1) Holder is the miscreant at this point. Look up the definition of the word. Right now, we who you arguing with are the ones who fit the first definition, in the loosest sense; whereas Holder fits the second definition to a T at this point.

2) I believe you mean "sought." "Saught" is an archaic word meaning "peace, quiet, ease," and doesn't make sense in this regard. In the modern world, Saught is a humanitarian organization that uses unexploded ordinance and landmines to create products that support the sustainability of post-conflict countries.

3) Holder was sought- That's why they called him in the first place. He chose this path from the beginning by lying to Congress BEFORE THEY EVER DEMANDED DOCUMENTS.

4) You have been, are, and would be wrong on that count in this situation, because you repeatedly demonstrate an inability to comprehend the authority structure of those agencies and the office of the U.S.A.G.

5) If they had done exactly as they pleased, there would be no issue. Remember that the whistleblowers on this deal have stated that they were ordered to observe only, and their superiors have since stated that they felt tied by orders coming from even higher. At that point, you are now out of the Arizona state branch of ATF and into the national administration of the agency.

6) So glad to see you finally getting to the root of your issue, which we all were pretty much guessing was the case. It's simply too bad, however, that someone with your intelligence; whom I have admired in discussions elsewhere; ends up having to play the "race" and "sexism" cards, simply because there is NO OTHER DEFENSE!!

Grow. Up.

Assuredcw · Jun 23, 2012

RETS:

If they had done exactly as they pleased, there would be no issue. Remember that the whistleblowers on this deal have stated that they were ordered to observe only, and their superiors have since stated that they felt tied by orders coming from even higher. At that point, you are now out of the Arizona state branch of ATF and into the national administration of the agency.

Congress needs a whistleblower who reports to Holder. They don't have one (ATF employees don't report to Holder). Next!

Holder is the miscreant at this point.

OK. We'll see if things pan out the way you think they will, or if this is in fact another Shirley Sherrod situation. Except, when the person you are trying to get rid of, is the ONLY member of Federal law enforcement who can impose the death penalty, you kind of shoot yourself in the foot if you're wrong, you know? Just a thought.

Let's let the investigators investigate. The Inspector General reports are both going to be back by November.

In the meantime, wouldn't it be nice to see some ATF employees on death row? I would like to see that. And Holder (God forbid) won't escape accountability either, because there are TWO Inspector General investigations pending - one from Justice and one from Homeland.

MachZer0 · Jun 23, 2012

Vylo said:
Perhaps you should tell us when you are making the claim.

I know it's at least 2, so far. Maybe more

Rion · Jun 23, 2012

Assuredcw said:
Politics is what we are discussing, here. I know you want conservatives to rule the world, but that's not the reality they operate under. Sorry.

...so Vylo and TerranceL are both closet-conservatives because they disagree with you?

Vylo · Jun 23, 2012

MachZer0 said:
I know it's at least 2, so far. Maybe more

Im willing to bet you are right, but It would be good if you could actually present those statements and retractions.

RETS · Jun 23, 2012

Assuredcw said:
Congress needs a whistleblower who reports to Holder. They don't have one (ATF employees don't report to Holder). Next!

And the hits just keep on coming.

Let me lay out the organizational structure of the ATF for you, okay?

You want to see it in legalize? Check it out. Also included in there: The fact that the ATF is also to release information to local, state and federal agencies involved in the enforcement and institution of law. (That would include Congress.) The testimony of ATF agents "...in response to subpoenas or demands of courts or other authorities as governed by subpart B of part 16..." (Which would also be Congress, btw).

Now: Every field office send their reports to the Office of Field Operations. The Director of Field Operations compiles them all, in their entirety, and sends them to the Chief Operating Officer. The COO sends them to the Director of the ATF with his own comments on the package, along with any recommendations they may have. The Director of the ATF adds his own preface to the total package, and that is sent to... The Attorney General for review and approval.

It doesn't matter that the individual ATF agents don't answer directly to the AG, because everyone above them does. What's more, while every operation within the ATF must be approved by the AG, an order from the AG is followed to the letter.

In other words...

No ATF agent would stop placing tracking devices within the guns unless ordered because it is a life endangering move.

This went on from shortly after Holder took office until he made a big show of shutting down the whole program.

Any order affecting the procedures of any operation must have the approval of the AG.

All changes to SOP are reported on. All unreported changes are routinely caught within a month's time by their version of IA, the OPRSO- And these guys are very good at their jobs.

Unreported changes are sent to the Director of the ATF by the OPRSO, and disciplinary measures are taken within two weeks on average. This can include suspension, termination and federal criminal charges.

No suspensions, terminations or federal charges were filed until after this blew wide open.

So, in all honesty, tell me which is more likely?

A field agent, or field office director makes a decision based entirely on racism to put his/her agents in harms way by allowing weapons to be sold to gunrunners without a means of tracking. Then, they pay every single superior officer, and investigating member of the OPRSO, out of his/her own pocket. (The money for the gun sales is accounted for, so it couldn't have been used for bribes.) These bribes are solely to keep the AG unaware of what was transpiring, for the sole purpose of... What? Having a laugh?

OR...

The AG, continuing his fanatical pursuit of gun control, issued an order to cease tracking all weapons but allow the program to continue, thus giving rise to the issue we see before us today with that one order?

MachZer0 · Jun 23, 2012

Vylo said:
Im willing to bet you are right, but It would be good if you could actually present those statements and retractions.

Sure, no problem

One was when Eric Holder's Assistant Attorney General told Congress that the DOJ and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives never allowed guns to walk and the other was when Holder tried to blame the Bush Administration (surprise, surprise) claiming that Bush's AG, Michael Mukasey was aware of gunrunning during the Bush Administration.

TerranceL · Jun 23, 2012

Assuredcw said:
Congress needs a whistleblower who reports to Holder. They don't have one (ATF employees don't report to Holder). Next!

Who exactly do you think they report to?

Of course they report to Holder he's the head of the DOJ.

HerbieHeadley · Jun 24, 2012

Katie Pavalich interview on C-Span afterwords from June 6, 2012

Fast and Furious: Barack Obama's Bloodiest Scandal and the Shameless Cover-Up

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/Kati

This is the most corrupt administration in US history.
I had forgot that Brian Terry was only armed with bean bags as standard operating procedure under the Hussein administrations homeland security policy by big Nappy.

"In a second bombshell revelation, Vanderboegh reports that murdered ICE agent Jaime Zapata was investigating Fast and Furious weapons—despite Department of Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano’s sworn testimony that there was no connection."

Read more at Ammoland.com: http://www.ammoland.com/2012/06/15/ice-agent-jaime-zapata-murdered-while-investigating-fast-furious-weapons/#ixzz1yh3eEtb5

"Two of the weapons found at the murder scene were later traced back to Texas — One was purchased in August 2010 near Houston on behalf of accused drug dealer Manuel Gomez Barba, and the other in October 2010 by a Dallas trafficking ring that included Otilio Osorio and his brother Ranferi. Much like Fast and Furious, both groups had been under ATF surveillance for many months, although ATF officials in Texas later denied that any gunwalking happened in their state. United State Senator John Cornyn has pressed Eric Holder and DOJ for details on any gunwalking in Texas. So far, he has been met with denials or silence.

The Department of Homeland Security, ICE and the Department of Justice have long denied that the case of Jaime Zapata had anything to do with Fast and Furious. The discovery of this ROI by Zapata, "puts the lie to that (expletives deleted) by Napolitano and Holder," according on source who spoke with this reporter on conditions of absolute anonymity.

Multiple sources including current and former employees of the Department of Justice and the Department of Homeland Security have confirmed this explosive new revelation in the Fast & Furious investigation. Said one source, "I think (DHS) is covering up something big." He added, "I feel betrayed.""

http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2012/06/sipsey-street-exclusive-investigators.html

"Today, however, new evidence has surfaced indicating that not only was Hillary deeply involved in the scandal but was one of the masterminds behind it.

Hillary was obsessed with gun statistics that would prove that '90% of the firearms used by Mexican criminals come from the United States.' As previouly reported, that meme, repeated incessantly by Democratic Senators, Barack Obama, certan members of the ATF, Janet Napolitano, and Hillary Clinton was patently and blatantly false. The fact that they all knew it was false is borne out by the lengths to which each of the above named co-conspirators went to attempt to 'prove' that the 90% figure was true."

http://www.examiner.com/article/breaking-new-evidence-shows-hillary-a-mastermind-behind-gunwalker

Afterburner with Bill Whittle: Follow the Ideology - YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L54gOgJxIRQ

Fast & Furious

Should Attorney General Holder be held in contempt?

Yes, he should be held in contempt (explain)

No, he should not be held in contempt (explain)

I am not sure.

Citizen for Civil Public Discourse

Caught Between Barack and a Hard Place

Citizen for Civil Public Discourse

Caught Between Barack and a Hard Place

Citizen for Civil Public Discourse

Stick with the King!

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.

Sarcasm is kind of an art isn't it?

Sarcasm is kind of an art isn't it?

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.

Citizen for Civil Public Discourse

Telling it like it is

Citizen for Civil Public Discourse

Caught Between Barack and a Hard Place

Annuit Cœptis

Stick with the King!

Telling it like it is

Caught Between Barack and a Hard Place

Sarcasm is kind of an art isn't it?

North American Energy Independence Now!

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