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I stopped following Tim Gordon a while ago, he used to be my favorite podcaster and author/apologist but first his tone grew wearisome and then I started feeling like his positions were just meant to be antagonistic and perhaps even cruel but not rooted in truth or charity, despite the intricate linguistic defenses he can mount thanks to his training as a lawyer. Like bullying apologetics ("Disagree? Debate me bro!")
So that's all to say I'd really unplugged from his content and wasn't aware of what he was up to lately (I recently saw a really dumb thing he and his machismo lads that form some kind of Catholic manosphere group came up with called the "Dump Her!" list which was really stupid - a list of reasons why a guy should dump his girlfriend, like she has a job or is a single mom).
Apparently Tim and his wife Steph just released a ghastly joint video called "Why Your Annulment is Almost Certainly Invalid". Tim's made comments about this in the past and it's always been a stumbling block for me because, as you all know, the Church determined my first marriage was invalid while I was going through RCIA in 2016. I was married as a 22 year old evangelical to a woman I knew for nine months, we were together four years and then she asked for a divorce when she realized my pursuit of Rome wasn't just some temporary phase I was going through (also, she cheated on me and wanted to be with the other guy).
So Kale Zelden, a guy I don't know much about but started following after I read some compelling conversation between him and the currently drifting Steve Skojec put together a thread on Twitter (here) directly confronting the Gordon's terrible take on annulments, it reads as follows:
The annulment “discourse” by Tim and Steph is a grave and serious matter. Telling scrupulous Catholics that their annulment is “probably not” valid for reasons of a one-off comment from Fr. Gerald Murray as quoted by Bai McFarland’s outfit is irresponsible. What gives?
https://twitter.com/kalezelden/status/1729547076780818527
There’s a pretense for concern that masks a weird vindictive spirit. I’ll let a canon lawyer handle the intricacies of the Roman Rota, and which cases actually get appealed and why. But extrapolated conclusions from noisy data is scandalous & scandal inducing. But worse,
Tim’s performance betrays a lack of appreciation for the complexity of marriage & it’s peculiar character amongst the rest of the sacraments. It strikes me as unique because the matter of this particular sacrament is not a thing but a person. So with the Eucharist, the matter
are things—bread & wine. As long as they are properly made, the matter WILL “work”. With a priest using the proper form, the bread & wine become the body & blood. No question. But in marriage, the man & the woman are not things, but fallible beings. A man can lie, or be unfree
in such a way as bread or wine or water or oil can not. And further, a priest witnesses a marriage. He does not “marry” them despite our colloquial language. So when a party submits to the annulment process, one or both are saying that this exchange of vows was not true.
If you have any sense of the complexity of the human person, we know that persons can lie “on purpose” or they can lie because they are not fully in control of their selves. Tim pretending that people only get divorced so that they can go shag someone else is low-res, and…
purposefully throwing bombs to get a reaction. I watched the live stream & could see first hand the kind of scandal taking place in real time. Steph said to those who are annulled: “don’t get married…live a chaste life” as if she has any clue about actual living people…
Teaching his audience that they must distrust EVEN an official ruling by the church on something as intimate and important as a failed marriage is scandalous. As in, lead another to sin. In this case, despair & damage to their faith. So, to what end? To score internet cred?
To be “more based than thou?” The posturing comes across as monstrous. Malicious, even. I worry that annulments are given out too blithely, but this is not how you rectify things. Telling them to “stop sleeping with your concubine” or “go back to your real husband” is gross.
This kind of legalism is a dead letter. I truly hope that people will not listen to what Tim and Steph said on this livestream. It is a “kingdom destroyer” and not a builder of the body of Christ. Taking delight in the pain of others in such a way should give everyone pause.
If you have ever participated in the process, as I have as a witness for someone else, you know that it is thorough and harrowing. It is unsparing & truly gut-wrenching to go through. Scoring points on a show & tormenting tormented souls is unnecessary & mean.
I will tag Tim here
@timotheeology
because I’m not trying to hide. This discourse should be engaged and refuted publicly. I have enjoyed his content in the past, but this one goes over the line. If the church has pronounced your annulment valid, then it is. If you have been
…sincere, then you should have a clear conscience. If the church is lying to you about given testimony, then why bother with the church at all? This is not a personal attack, and I really hope this is about wayward counsel, and on the substance. Godspeed you all.
I really appreciate how well Zelden articulates his point, which really resonates with me and seems to be resonating with others as well. And piggy-backing on that I would say I certainly need to be more discerning in who I choose to listen to as commentators on the Church going forward. The internet especially is full of charlatans and phonies who don't know as much as they think they do.
So that's all to say I'd really unplugged from his content and wasn't aware of what he was up to lately (I recently saw a really dumb thing he and his machismo lads that form some kind of Catholic manosphere group came up with called the "Dump Her!" list which was really stupid - a list of reasons why a guy should dump his girlfriend, like she has a job or is a single mom).
Apparently Tim and his wife Steph just released a ghastly joint video called "Why Your Annulment is Almost Certainly Invalid". Tim's made comments about this in the past and it's always been a stumbling block for me because, as you all know, the Church determined my first marriage was invalid while I was going through RCIA in 2016. I was married as a 22 year old evangelical to a woman I knew for nine months, we were together four years and then she asked for a divorce when she realized my pursuit of Rome wasn't just some temporary phase I was going through (also, she cheated on me and wanted to be with the other guy).
So Kale Zelden, a guy I don't know much about but started following after I read some compelling conversation between him and the currently drifting Steve Skojec put together a thread on Twitter (here) directly confronting the Gordon's terrible take on annulments, it reads as follows:
The annulment “discourse” by Tim and Steph is a grave and serious matter. Telling scrupulous Catholics that their annulment is “probably not” valid for reasons of a one-off comment from Fr. Gerald Murray as quoted by Bai McFarland’s outfit is irresponsible. What gives?
https://twitter.com/kalezelden/status/1729547076780818527
There’s a pretense for concern that masks a weird vindictive spirit. I’ll let a canon lawyer handle the intricacies of the Roman Rota, and which cases actually get appealed and why. But extrapolated conclusions from noisy data is scandalous & scandal inducing. But worse,
Tim’s performance betrays a lack of appreciation for the complexity of marriage & it’s peculiar character amongst the rest of the sacraments. It strikes me as unique because the matter of this particular sacrament is not a thing but a person. So with the Eucharist, the matter
are things—bread & wine. As long as they are properly made, the matter WILL “work”. With a priest using the proper form, the bread & wine become the body & blood. No question. But in marriage, the man & the woman are not things, but fallible beings. A man can lie, or be unfree
in such a way as bread or wine or water or oil can not. And further, a priest witnesses a marriage. He does not “marry” them despite our colloquial language. So when a party submits to the annulment process, one or both are saying that this exchange of vows was not true.
If you have any sense of the complexity of the human person, we know that persons can lie “on purpose” or they can lie because they are not fully in control of their selves. Tim pretending that people only get divorced so that they can go shag someone else is low-res, and…
purposefully throwing bombs to get a reaction. I watched the live stream & could see first hand the kind of scandal taking place in real time. Steph said to those who are annulled: “don’t get married…live a chaste life” as if she has any clue about actual living people…
Teaching his audience that they must distrust EVEN an official ruling by the church on something as intimate and important as a failed marriage is scandalous. As in, lead another to sin. In this case, despair & damage to their faith. So, to what end? To score internet cred?
To be “more based than thou?” The posturing comes across as monstrous. Malicious, even. I worry that annulments are given out too blithely, but this is not how you rectify things. Telling them to “stop sleeping with your concubine” or “go back to your real husband” is gross.
This kind of legalism is a dead letter. I truly hope that people will not listen to what Tim and Steph said on this livestream. It is a “kingdom destroyer” and not a builder of the body of Christ. Taking delight in the pain of others in such a way should give everyone pause.
If you have ever participated in the process, as I have as a witness for someone else, you know that it is thorough and harrowing. It is unsparing & truly gut-wrenching to go through. Scoring points on a show & tormenting tormented souls is unnecessary & mean.
I will tag Tim here
@timotheeology
because I’m not trying to hide. This discourse should be engaged and refuted publicly. I have enjoyed his content in the past, but this one goes over the line. If the church has pronounced your annulment valid, then it is. If you have been
…sincere, then you should have a clear conscience. If the church is lying to you about given testimony, then why bother with the church at all? This is not a personal attack, and I really hope this is about wayward counsel, and on the substance. Godspeed you all.
I really appreciate how well Zelden articulates his point, which really resonates with me and seems to be resonating with others as well. And piggy-backing on that I would say I certainly need to be more discerning in who I choose to listen to as commentators on the Church going forward. The internet especially is full of charlatans and phonies who don't know as much as they think they do.
