Fantastic Adventist Today Article!

[sentipente]

I vehemently disagree.

Disagree all you want. That's what it is and it is what it is.

 

[sentipente]

I vehemently disagree.

Disagree all you want. That's what it is and it is what it is.

 

[Mankin]

I'm sickened by indoctrination and tradtional services being inforced on Adventist youth.

 

[Mankin]

Adventist youth don't want to start speaking in tongues or anything like that.

 

[NightEternal]

Once again, many of the references in this article are to 'emotion's'. I think that the 'disillusionment' among the youth of the SDA church is coming from all the 'hype' and ecstatic hoopla of the evangelical churches. They FEEL as though they are missing out on all the ‘fun’.

This is one of the dangers warned about in the great deception of these last days. “Emotionalism is confused with the true Spirit’. Coming from a Pentecostal background, I am well aware of its appeal to the feelings of the young whose emotions are of immense importance to them.

They also want to desperately ‘fit in’ with the rest of the world. Youth just HATE FEELING different. This too is behind the power of the evangelical movement. It’s really not about becoming more holy—but FEELING more holy irregardless of ones behavior.
The proof of this statement is confirmed with this article itself…

[FONT=&quot]Many of the features of evangelical Christianity were baptized into Adventism in 1957, when the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Adventist[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Church[/FONT][FONT=&quot] published Seventh- day Adventists Answer Questions on Doctrine. It was written in response to questions posed by [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Walter[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Martin[/FONT][FONT=&quot], author of the well known book Kingdom of the Cults (original printing 1965).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Martin, a Southern Baptist who made a career out of judging who was a cult and who was not, met with a group of Adventist scholars in order to ascertain whether Adventism should remain classified as a Christian cult or if it belonged to the sisterhood of Protestant churches. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Adventists who worked with [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Martin[/FONT][FONT=&quot] answered enough of his questions correctly to receive a passing score by his reckoning, [/FONT][FONT=&quot](and who made him judge over our church?)[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and on that basis, Adventists were thereafter no longer classified as a Christian cult. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Evangelical Adventism had been born[/FONT][FONT=&quot], though some influential traditional Adventists were not shy in questioning its paternity.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It’s not hard for the discerning eye to see that those who’s emotions and feelings lead and guide them would favor distancing themselves from an organization where calm, quiet FAITH is preferred and practiced.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I also find it extremely disturbing that the SDA people would cower to the likes of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Walter[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Martin[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and his tacky attempts to villinize a movement that God Himself raised up. [/FONT]

Are you still here? Of course you are. Is your area so boring that you have to come here and dump your refuse of views on us?

Your hateful attitude towards celebration worship is not wanted nor desired in here. Get out and stay out.

As for Walter Martin (R.I.P.), your arrogant disrespect towards a brilliant scholar of the Word does not suprise me one bit. The truth is, you would not have a hope in Hades if he would corner you in a discussion. You are a novice, at best. He would make mincemeat out of your weak Trad views. You would be defeated in the worst way, your TSDA dogma chewed up and spit out right beside you on the stage. Just like Johnsson, you wouldn't stand a chance.

And boy, would I pay to see that.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

What an amazing assessment. The study and documentation from Martin and Barnhouse and Eternity Magazine, the scholarship of some of the best in the Adventist church is equated with emotionalism by Honor.

No wonder the Traditional SDA church is in such trouble.

 

[Bourbaki]

Fantastic Adventist Today Article!

Yes, if you love lies from propagandists.

They’re Adventists, but rather than Adventist distinctives, their focus is the cross of Christ. Where do evangelical Adventists fit in?

That article is whining about Adventist distinctives, not exalting the cross. That's proof positive to me that the Subversives' main focus is to whine about Ellen G. White!

 

[tall73]

While many of Romero’s charges against the Adventist pioneers appear to be historically accurate, Romero’s claim that the central truth of the gospel (justification by faith) was missing from Adventism for the first 40 years is almost certainly unsupportable.

He probably bases it on the 1888 controversies, etc.


But what is less debatable, even now by EGW defenders, is that the early beliefs were formed during the shut-door period in the late 1840's and early 50's. The result is that the gospel, seen as a past commission, was de-emphasized and the distinctives became the testing truths for a primarily Christian audience. That legacy has been hard to shake.

Comparisons to budhist practices are a bit strange however.

 

[honorthesabbath]

What an amazing assessment. The study and documentation from Martin and Barnhouse and Eternity Magazine, the scholarship of some of the best in the Adventist church is equated with emotionalism by Honor.

No wonder the Traditional SDA church is in such trouble.

RC-the trad church is not 'in trouble' as you put it. We will stand our ground while the rebels fall around us.

God had established this movement decades before your birth and He will take it/us to the second coming just as He began--by His strong arm. You can stay out of the ark if you wish.

 

[tall73]

It's like reading the same issue over, and over, and over again.

I have gone over basically three issues. I found two articles interesting.. One testimonial was particularly fascinating for me. The theology ones don't seem terribly well done at times. But perhaps I have not looked at a big enough sample.

 

[honorthesabbath]

Are you still here? Of course you are. Is your area so boring that you have to come here and dump your refuse of views on us?

Your hateful attitude towards celebration worship is not wanted nor desired in here. Get out and stay out.

As for Walter Martin (R.I.P.), your arrogant disrespect towards a brilliant scholar of the Word does not suprise me one bit. The truth is, you would not have a hope in Hades if he would corner you in a discussion. You are a novice, at best. He would make mincemeat out of your weak Trad views. You would be defeated in the worst way, your TSDA dogma chewed up and spit out right beside you on the stage. Just like Johnsson, you wouldn't stand a chance.

And boy, would I pay to see that.

Ec 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. Yep--who's alive and who's dead?

 

[tall73]

Adventist youth don't want to start speaking in tongues or anything like that.

Perhaps honor could spell out precisely what worship style she has an issue with.

 

[honorthesabbath]

Perhaps honor could spell out precisely what worship style she has an issue with.

http://www.stepstolife.org/php/view_article.php?article_id=1167

 

[Bourbaki]

Hopelessly Unchristian?

That is correct. That magazine is a fulfillment of prophecy.

The Prophecy:

"There will be a hatred kindled against the testimonies which is satanic. The workings of Satan will be to unsettle the faith of the churches in them, for this reason: Satan cannot have so clear a track to bring in his deceptions and bind up souls in his delusions if the warnings and reproofs and counsels of the Spirit of God are heeded."--1SM 48. (See 5T 675, 676.)

The fulfillment:

This is the start of a discussion that I did not want to have, especially on this forum, but due to the events over the last 6 months since Greg and I were suspended without warning from FAF Online, I now must speak out about my experience in more detail than I have done so in the past.

Dale Ratzlaff, the chairman of the board and founder of “Life Assurance Ministries” wrote an excellent book called ‘Cultic Doctrine of Seventh Day Adventists’ in which he and the writer of the forward, Ken Samples, did a great job objectively detailing the cultic aspects of Adventism, and especially the Investigative Judgment.

In that book Dale was very clear that Adventists are not in the same category as Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons in that at least SDA is orthodox on the Trinity and the person of Christ. Just over one year ago, I emailed Dale, and he affirmed that he stood by his book.

Over the past year or so, it has become increasingly evident that those who are publishing Dale Ratzlaff’s magazine, “Proclamation!” clearly disagree with the conclusions of their chairman and founder articulated in his book, “Cultic Doctrine”, yet the book is still being advertised and sold.

FAF online, moderated by Dale Ratzlaff’s publishers, Colleen and Richard Tinker, continuously encourages statements that affirm the following:

1. The SDA Jesus is a Demon

http://64.226.233.122/discus/messages/11/5462.html?1177938150

2. The SDA church is a Satanic Cult (This statement can be found on multiple threads)

3. Ellen White was a Satan Worshipper and a Satanist, and demon possessed, and is currently burning in Hades

http://64.226.233.122/discus/messages/11/5806.html?1184877336

4. Doug Batchelor is demon possessed

The above statements have been made multiple times, and NEVER has the moderator or administrator of that discussion forum stepped in and moderated these statements. In fact, when some of us have challenged these statements, stern warning letters have been issued warning that those who protest this are being divisive, and if the challenges continue, then expulsion has been the promised result.

The above statements are so far outside the pale of credibility, that I see the FAF group in danger of becoming a cult-like group. There are many other reasons why I fear this is happening.

I am very reluctant to speak out on this, since I had the privilege of having wonderful fellowship for over one year with the Tinkers, and many of the Bible study fellowship group. I was a member of their Bible study group for 18 months. I was blessed and grew spiritually as a result of the Bible study and the wonderful fellowship, having dinner on many Friday nights after the Bible study was over. I wrote about my experience with the FAF Bible study group here:

http://64.226.233.122/discus/messages/5370/3195.html?1119994327

The Tinkers were very interested in my story of how my Dad and I left Adventism, and I agreed to publish my story in Proclamation, and you can find it linked here (you will have to scroll down to find it):

http://rtinker.powweb.com/Proclamation2005_JulAug.pdf

As my involvement continued with this group, I saw some warning signs that were disturbing, but I ignored these warning signs for a long time. I remained very dedicated to the support of FAF and Proclamation. I made over 2000 posts on FAF.

Greg and I were suspended from FAF without warning, after we challenged Colleen’s contention that “there is no Adventist who knows the true Jesus”. Instead of dealing with our arguments, they chose to suspend us, but they offered to meet with Greg and me initially, and when we took them up on their offer with a specific time and place, it was like we called their bluff, and they then refused to meet with us, with no specific reason given.

Recently, a well thought out and highly credible post by our good friend Gabriel (aka Jackob on FAF) was quickly deleted because it challenged some of the assertions that the most vocal person over there made, and questioned the “groupthink” mentality that FAF has seemed to have fallen in to. And when others on FAF directly questioned the moderators on this with a separate thread, then one of their posts was deleted, and the thread asking where Jackob was, was immediately closed to replies.

The Tinkers have made the claim many times that FAF is an open forum, and that they are not responsible for the extreme posting, yet why are the extreme posts allowed to stand, without moderation, and those who write well reasoned, and intellectually stimulating posts, censored, and those challenging them banned?

This is similar to the way SDA forums are conducted.

Isn’t it inteesting, that those who claim to have the truth, and have it all figured out, somehow won’t defend their positions on an open forum? Instead, it is necessary to remove posts, and ban those who disagree with them?

Isn’t this what Ellen and James White did in their day? Ballenger openly challenged Ellen’s position on the sanctuary, and it wasn’t long before he was accused of being divisive, and doing the work of Satan, and therefore he was effectively removed from the church. I see a similar spirit at work today on SDA forums, as well as former SDA forums.

This FAF group, none of them who have any formal training in theology or apologetics, are completely at odds with the responsible apologetic community. Even those who may regard SDA as a cult, would not agree with their conclusions as stated in the last Proclamation regarding SDA’s belief in the person of Jesus. They always claim that the evangelical community just doesn’t understand them, and they openly declare that their own pastor doesn’t understand why SDA should be labeled a cult, just like Mormons.

They diminish the research of Walter Martin, Kenneth Samples, and Craig Hawkins, all who are or were trained in formal apologetics.

Don’t get me wrong, I have deep theological problems with the SDA church, and so do the above apologists. But, what is gained by name-calling and making accusations against the SDA church and Ellen White, that cannot be proven or substantiated?

The result of all this, is that former Adventists as a group get categorized by SDA apologists as being extreme and hateful, especially when the extreme positions are so frequently stated and left to stand without comment?

There is so much good that the FAF online group has accomplished, and they do provide needed support for those who have been badly bruised by the legalism of SDA doctrines.

The purpose of this post is to call our friends on FAF about what I believe to be the seriousness of this situation. The only reason I am writing on this forum, is because I no longer have a voice on their forum, where I would like to post the above.

The leadership of FAF and LAM, as well as those who disagree with what I have posted, have the freedom to come on here and answer my concerns. This is not meant to be an FAF bashing opportunity, but is meant as constructive criticism, and to help in bringing the former SDA community into a responsible position.

May the Lord be with us all when we are discussing the great doctrines of the gospel, and may we ever be charitable to those who disagree with us. There are many fine Christian people in Adventism, who do need to know the blessed freedom that a walk with the Lord Jesus can mean, and what freedom a better understanding of the gospel of grace can mean.

Stan

 

[honorthesabbath]

Adventist youth don't want to start speaking in tongues or anything like that.

Speaking in tongues. Adventists commonly believe that speaking in tongues refers to speaking in earthly languages not known to the user, not to a personal prayer language or similar as practiced by many charismatic and Pentecostal Christians. The 1991 National Church Life Survey in Australia found that approximately 5% of Australian Adventists approve of and/or speak in tongues, whereas 11% have no opinion and approximately 85% disapprove. This was the highest disapproval rating amongst all denominations surveyed.[35]
An Adventist with an appreciation for charismatic experiences could be considered progressive in one sense, particularly because traditional and moderate Adventist views are suspicious of the Pentecostal and charismatic movements. More charismatic Adventists tend to be more progressive in their theology and have increased respect for and interaction with other Christian groups. For example, Jon Paulien suspects the charismatic movement could be the unifying force between Christian groups which will persecute God's people at the end time.[citation needed]
See the Spiritual Discernment Conference Papers (including Arthur Patrick's papers on worship and the Holy Spirit in early and later Adventism) and Spiritual Warfare papers from SDAnet AtIssue. Other articles online[36] and offline.[37]

 

[NightEternal]

http://www.stepstolife.org/php/view_article.php?article_id=1167

HA!! What a pathetic pile of garbage that article was! It almost made Bacchiocchi's book seem credible!

I don't know what is sadder-that you actually back that CCM hate-rhetoric tripe or that it was even formulated to begin with!

 

[NightEternal]

RC-the trad church is not 'in trouble' as you put it. We will stand our ground while the rebels fall around us.

God had established this movement decades before your birth and He will take it/us to the second coming just as He began--by His strong arm. You can stay out of the ark if you wish.

Oh gag.

 

[moicherie]

Adventist youth don't want to start speaking in tongues or anything like that.

why not how else you going to communicate? All humans speak tongues or else they use some kind of sign language.....

 

[moicherie]

RC-the trad church is not 'in trouble' as you put it. We will stand our ground while the rebels fall around us.

God had established this movement decades before your birth and He will take it/us to the second coming just as He began--by His strong arm. You can stay out of the ark if you wish.

Its seems its more important to you to be a Trad than to be in Christ.... that's a shame.

 

[Mankin]

Typical trad response. More proud to be an Adventist than a Christian.