False or misleading comments from the pulpit

[Godsunworthyservant]

If there's one thing that really bothers me more than lies and misleading statements from politicians it's when those statements are made by preachers. It's almost summer and that reminds me of one in particular that is repeated nearly every July 4th since it appeared in a tweet from Pastor Rick Warren on August 13 2012. The tweet reads; "Of the 56 Founding Fathers who signed Declaration of Independence, 29 had ministry degrees from seminary or Bible college!" I've heard several preachers repeat it in their sermons around the 4th of July, but it's inherently false.

Let's look at the truth of the matter. Here's the complete list of the signers and their education.

George Read of Delaware: Studied Law at Philadelphia College.

Caesar Rodney and Thomas McKean of Delaware: did not attend college.

George Clymer, Benjamin Franklin, Robert Morris, John Morton, George Ross, James Smith and George Taylor of Pennsylvania: No college

Benjamin Rush of Pennsylvania: Studied medicine at the University of Edinburgh and was a physician.

James Wilson of Pennsylvania: Studied law at the Universities of St. Andrews, Glasgow, and Edinburgh; College of Philadelphia. was a lawyer

John Adams of Massachusetts: Studied law at Harvard, was a lawyer.

Samuel Adams of Massachusetts: Studied Political Science at Harvard.

John Hancock of Massachusetts: Studied Business at Harvard and was a merchant.

Robert Treat Paine of Massachusetts: Studied law at Harvard and was a judge.

Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts: Studied business at Harvard and was a merchant.

Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, and Matthew Thornton of New Hampshire: No college.

Stephen Hopkins of Rhode Island: No college.

William Ellery of Rhose Island: Studied law at Harvard: was a lawyer and a judge.

Lewis Morris of New York: Graduated from Yale and returned to his family farm.

Philip Livingston of New York: Studied business at Yale: Merchant

Francis Lewis of New York: Attended Westminster College in England, no mention of degree: Merchant

William Floyd of New York: no college

Button Gwinnett and George Walton of Georgia: No college

Lyman Hall of Georgia: Studied medicine at Yale; Physician

Richard Henry Lee, Francis Lightfoot Lee and George Wythe of Virginia: No college

Carter Braxton of Virginia: General studies at William and Mary: Farmer

Benjamin Harrison of Virginia: Attended William and Mary College: no degree: farmer

Thomas Jefferson of Virginia: Studied law at William and Mary:Lawyer

Thomas Nelson Jr of Virginia: Graduated from Cambridge University: Farmer

William Hooper of North Carolina: Studied law at Harvard: Lawyer

John Penn of North Carolina: No college

Joseph Hewes of North Carolina: Attended Princeton: no degree: Merchant

Edward Rutledge of South Carolina: Studied law at Oxford: Lawyer

Arthur Middleton of South Carolina: studied political science at Cambridge: Politician

Thomas Lynch Jr. of South Carolina: Studied law at Cambridge: Lawyer

Thomas Heyward Jr. of South Carolina: No college

Abraham Clark and John Hart of New Jersey: No college

Francis Hopkinson of New Jersey: Studied law at the College of Philadelphia: Lawyer

Richard Stockton of New Jersey: Studied law at the College of New Jersey (Princeton): Lawyer

John Witherspoon of New Jersey: Studied theology at College of Edinburgh, Dr of divinity at St. Andrews: only signer who was a clergyman

Samuel Huntington and Roger Sherman of Connecticut: No college

William Williams of Connec0ticut: Graduate of Harvard: Merchant

Oliver Wolcott of Connecticut: Studied law at Yale: Judge

Charles Carroll of Maryland: Jesuits' College at St. Omar, France; seminary in Rheims; Graduate, College of Louis the Grande; Studied law: lawyer

Samuel Chase and Thomas Stone of Maryland: No college

William Paca of Maryland: Studied political science at Philadelphia College and law at Annapolis: judge

There you have it. Only two attended seminary. John Witherspoon who was a clergyman and Charles Carroll, who attended seminary for a short time but didn't graduate. So, where did this idea that 29 of the signers "had ministry degrees from seminary or Bible college" originate? It's absolutely false. The bigger question is why would preachers spread such false rhetoric without researching to see if it's true? (or maybe repeat it knowing it's false?) This is why many non-believers may question the church based on the false rhetoric of a few. What's your take?

 

[Richard T]

If there's one thing that really bothers me more than lies and misleading statements from politicians it's when those statements are made by preachers. It's almost summer and that reminds me of one in particular that is repeated nearly every July 4th since it appeared in a tweet from Pastor Rick Warren on August 13 2012. The tweet reads; "Of the 56 Founding Fathers who signed Declaration of Independence, 29 had ministry degrees from seminary or Bible college!" I've heard several preachers repeat it in their sermons around the 4th of July, but it's inherently false.

Let's look at the truth of the matter. Here's the complete list of the signers and their education.

George Read of Delaware: Studied Law at Philadelphia College.

Caesar Rodney and Thomas McKean of Delaware: did not attend college.

George Clymer, Benjamin Franklin, Robert Morris, John Morton, George Ross, James Smith and George Taylor of Pennsylvania: No college

Benjamin Rush of Pennsylvania: Studied medicine at the University of Edinburgh and was a physician.

James Wilson of Pennsylvania: Studied law at the Universities of St. Andrews, Glasgow, and Edinburgh; College of Philadelphia. was a lawyer

John Adams of Massachusetts: Studied law at Harvard, was a lawyer.

Samuel Adams of Massachusetts: Studied Political Science at Harvard.

John Hancock of Massachusetts: Studied Business at Harvard and was a merchant.

Robert Treat Paine of Massachusetts: Studied law at Harvard and was a judge.

Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts: Studied business at Harvard and was a merchant.

Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, and Matthew Thornton of New Hampshire: No college.

Stephen Hopkins of Rhode Island: No college.

William Ellery of Rhose Island: Studied law at Harvard: was a lawyer and a judge.

Lewis Morris of New York: Graduated from Yale and returned to his family farm.

Philip Livingston of New York: Studied business at Yale: Merchant

Francis Lewis of New York: Attended Westminster College in England, no mention of degree: Merchant

William Floyd of New York: no college

Button Gwinnett and George Walton of Georgia: No college

Lyman Hall of Georgia: Studied medicine at Yale; Physician

Richard Henry Lee, Francis Lightfoot Lee and George Wythe of Virginia: No college

Carter Braxton of Virginia: General studies at William and Mary: Farmer

Benjamin Harrison of Virginia: Attended William and Mary College: no degree: farmer

Thomas Jefferson of Virginia: Studied law at William and Mary:Lawyer

Thomas Nelson Jr of Virginia: Graduated from Cambridge University: Farmer

William Hooper of North Carolina: Studied law at Harvard: Lawyer

John Penn of North Carolina: No college

Joseph Hewes of North Carolina: Attended Princeton: no degree: Merchant

Edward Rutledge of South Carolina: Studied law at Oxford: Lawyer

Arthur Middleton of South Carolina: studied political science at Cambridge: Politician

Thomas Lynch Jr. of South Carolina: Studied law at Cambridge: Lawyer

Thomas Heyward Jr. of South Carolina: No college

Abraham Clark and John Hart of New Jersey: No college

Francis Hopkinson of New Jersey: Studied law at the College of Philadelphia: Lawyer

Richard Stockton of New Jersey: Studied law at the College of New Jersey (Princeton): Lawyer

John Witherspoon of New Jersey: Studied theology at College of Edinburgh, Dr of divinity at St. Andrews: only signer who was a clergyman

Samuel Huntington and Roger Sherman of Connecticut: No college

William Williams of Connec0ticut: Graduate of Harvard: Merchant

Oliver Wolcott of Connecticut: Studied law at Yale: Judge

Charles Carroll of Maryland: Jesuits' College at St. Omar, France; seminary in Rheims; Graduate, College of Louis the Grande; Studied law: lawyer

Samuel Chase and Thomas Stone of Maryland: No college

William Paca of Maryland: Studied political science at Philadelphia College and law at Annapolis: judge

There you have it. Only two attended seminary. John Witherspoon who was a clergyman and Charles Carroll, who attended seminary for a short time but didn't graduate. So, where did this idea that 29 of the signers "had ministry degrees from seminary or Bible college" originate? It's absolutely false. The bigger question is why would preachers spread such false rhetoric without researching to see if it's true? (or maybe repeat it knowing it's false?) This is why many non-believers may question the church based on the false rhetoric of a few. What's your take?

I looked at the names and degrees and figured you too might have some error because the last degree such as law, might be preceded by another seminary type of degree. So I sampled two names.
John Adams. - "At age sixteen, Adams entered Harvard College in 1751, studying under Joseph Mayhew.[10] As an adult, Adams was a keen scholar, studying the works of ancient writers such as Thucydides, Plato, Cicero, and Tacitus in their original languages.[11] Though his father expected him to be a minister,[12] after his 1755 graduation with an A.B. degree, he taught school temporarily in Worcester, while pondering his permanent vocation." John Adams - Wikipedia. So his father expected him to be a minister. So let;s look at who Adams studied under, Joseph Mayhew. Mayhew's "career included being a tutor of John Adams at Harvard and a Preacher." Joseph Mayhew - Wikipedia
In a letter saved by Harvard, Adams wrote this. "I perceived very clearly, as I thought, that the Study of Theology and the pursuit of it as a Profession would involve me in endless Altercations and make my Life miserable, without any prospect of doing any good to my fellow Men." Founders Online: [Harvard College, 1751–1755] Here it appears he is ditching theology and thinking of alternatives. So it would seem to indicate that his earlier education in Harvard was directed at theology. Harvard and other Ivy League schools in the early days were religious institutions.
"Almost all Ivy League institutions had similar beginnings. They were established by conservative Connecticut Congregationalists (Yale), pro-Awakening New Jersey Presbyterians (Princeton), devout Rhode Island Baptists (Brown), and mission-minded New Hampshire evangelicals (Dartmouth). These schools shared common commitments to the authority of the Word of God, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the need for a Christian influence in society." Journal | Christianity and the American University | Liberty Journal From the previous source. "Puritans established Harvard College in 1636, shortly after arriving in Massachusetts Bay. Harvard’s mission statement, given in 1642, was clearly evangelical: “Everyone shall consider as the main end of his life and studies, to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life. John 17:3.”
So was Adams in seminary? I would lean to saying yes, he was looking at being a preacher and receiving training in that. His first degree was an A.B. a Bachelor of Arts. Wikipedia is short on what the major was because with only 100 students, but it was basically a theological school. Curriculum included Greek and Hebrew (Latin too) so to me it looks like a seminary with some classical studies as well. Thankfully, Adams found his gift elsewhere.

The second one I looked at was George Read. He was admitted to the bar at age 19. So technically he was not in seminary unless you consider his younger years. "As a young boy, he completed his studies as the Academy of Reverend Francis Alison." George Read
So if one is a lawyer at age 19 could you be a preacher at 15?

The problem with these comparisons is that schooling was so different. Law school was not three years and a J.D. it was more practical. You graduated when they thought you were ready. The training was far less formal and more based on who you studied under. So a apples to apples comparison is impossible. Of course I welcome if someone wants to dig into the educational history of some of the others. The question though is if these Ivy League schools are basically religious does it equal a seminary education? I think that answer is probably yes for the undergraduate years.

The bigger problem as I see it was if the churches and schools of the Founders were Holy Spirit led, or just pretty dead in a mainly religious pursuit? I am guessing probably these guys broke both ways, that some are legitimate born again Christians doing their best for God while others were nominal Christians or even unbelievers using the name of God and the bible in an intellectual way. I am sure that someone has researched this. As to the claim of Pastor Warren I'm guessing that if he used a broad definition of seminary, then his number might be true.

 

[timf]

To determine why anyone says anything that is false, one can consider the possibilities.

1. The intentional lie intended to deceive for the purposes of gain, avoiding consequences, pride, or even amusement.
2. Ignorance. A person can be wrong and even sincere if they don't know any better.

To actively seek truth and learn, mature, and grow, one needs real humility. Satan (the father of lies) wants to keep us from truth and humility.

 

[Godsunworthyservant]

I looked at the names and degrees and figured you too might have some error because the last degree such as law, might be preceded by another seminary type of degree. So I sampled two names.
John Adams. - "At age sixteen, Adams entered Harvard College in 1751, studying under Joseph Mayhew.[10] As an adult, Adams was a keen scholar, studying the works of ancient writers such as Thucydides, Plato, Cicero, and Tacitus in their original languages.[11] Though his father expected him to be a minister,[12] after his 1755 graduation with an A.B. degree, he taught school temporarily in Worcester, while pondering his permanent vocation." John Adams - Wikipedia. So his father expected him to be a minister. So let;s look at who Adams studied under, Joseph Mayhew. Mayhew's "career included being a tutor of John Adams at Harvard and a Preacher." Joseph Mayhew - Wikipedia
In a letter saved by Harvard, Adams wrote this. "I perceived very clearly, as I thought, that the Study of Theology and the pursuit of it as a Profession would involve me in endless Altercations and make my Life miserable, without any prospect of doing any good to my fellow Men." Founders Online: [Harvard College, 1751–1755] Here it appears he is ditching theology and thinking of alternatives. So it would seem to indicate that his earlier education in Harvard was directed at theology. Harvard and other Ivy League schools in the early days were religious institutions.
"Almost all Ivy League institutions had similar beginnings. They were established by conservative Connecticut Congregationalists (Yale), pro-Awakening New Jersey Presbyterians (Princeton), devout Rhode Island Baptists (Brown), and mission-minded New Hampshire evangelicals (Dartmouth). These schools shared common commitments to the authority of the Word of God, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the need for a Christian influence in society." Journal | Christianity and the American University | Liberty Journal From the previous source. "Puritans established Harvard College in 1636, shortly after arriving in Massachusetts Bay. Harvard’s mission statement, given in 1642, was clearly evangelical: “Everyone shall consider as the main end of his life and studies, to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life. John 17:3.”
So was Adams in seminary? I would lean to saying yes, he was looking at being a preacher and receiving training in that. His first degree was an A.B. a Bachelor of Arts. Wikipedia is short on what the major was because with only 100 students, but it was basically a theological school. Curriculum included Greek and Hebrew (Latin too) so to me it looks like a seminary with some classical studies as well. Thankfully, Adams found his gift elsewhere.

The second one I looked at was George Read. He was admitted to the bar at age 19. So technically he was not in seminary unless you consider his younger years. "As a young boy, he completed his studies as the Academy of Reverend Francis Alison." George Read
So if one is a lawyer at age 19 could you be a preacher at 15?

The problem with these comparisons is that schooling was so different. Law school was not three years and a J.D. it was more practical. You graduated when they thought you were ready. The training was far less formal and more based on who you studied under. So a apples to apples comparison is impossible. Of course I welcome if someone wants to dig into the educational history of some of the others. The question though is if these Ivy League schools are basically religious does it equal a seminary education? I think that answer is probably yes for the undergraduate years.

The bigger problem as I see it was if the churches and schools of the Founders were Holy Spirit led, or just pretty dead in a mainly religious pursuit? I am guessing probably these guys broke both ways, that some are legitimate born again Christians doing their best for God while others were nominal Christians or even unbelievers using the name of God and the bible in an intellectual way. I am sure that someone has researched this. As to the claim of Pastor Warren I'm guessing that if he used a broad definition of seminary, then his number might be true.

What Mr. Warren and all those who have repeated him said is, "29 had ministry degrees from seminary or Bible college"! The key here is "had ministry degrees". That's what's false. I never got into nor questioned any of the things you mention as they are irrelevant to the actual quote. Of course most of them probably had some classes in Theology as that was a common thing in colleges of the day. And of course many of them were believers in some form of Christian theology.

You say "if these Ivy Schools are basically religious does it equal a seminary education? I think the answer is yes for the undergraduate years." Granted several of the schools were established as "religious" but the quote doesn't say they attended a college that was "religious", it says "29 had 'ministry degrees'. That is what is false. I don't disagree with any of the facts you quote, but none of them support the idea that "29 had ministry degrees". They didn't! Then you conclude with "As to the claim of Pastor Warren I'm guessing that if he used a broad definition of seminary, then his number might be true." I don't care how broad a definition you use for "seminary", it's still not true that they had "ministry degrees". That is unless you have a broad definition for "degree".

 

[Godsunworthyservant]

2. Ignorance. A person can be wrong and even sincere if they don't know any better.

I feel that there's no excuse for ignorance when the information is readily available. So, the only way one could be ignorant of this fact is willful ignorance. In other words, why would a pastor quote such things concerning the ministry without checking the accuracy of the quote? If they don't know any better than what? Are you suggesting that Mr. Warren or any of the other pastors who have quoted this don't know any better than to fact check such claims?

 

[com7fy8]

In a letter saved by Harvard, Adams wrote this. "I perceived very clearly, as I thought, that the Study of Theology and the pursuit of it as a Profession would involve me in endless Altercations and make my Life miserable, without any prospect of doing any good to my fellow Men." Founders Online: [Harvard College, 1751–1755]

lolololololololol

Because I have a prejudice toward organized religious people not necessarily being Christian, but scheduled often Sunday-only copy-cat worship Christians . . . I can tend to load things to mean we did not have so many really Christian men founding the nation.

And my prejudice is helped by how ones claiming to be Christians invaded the sovereign lands of Native American peoples. And yet now TV Christians are making a major stink about how people are crossing the southern border of the United States, into land which was taken by means of bloodshed from Mexicans and Native groups.

If you see what I am saying . . . Bible-claiming Europeans killed Indians, in order to enter and settle in Indian lands. And yet now, Christians are so upset if people cross the border into the land now occupied by Christians and others.

even unbelievers using the name of God and the bible in an intellectual way.

Ones used the Bible to justify what they did. But coveting someone else's land is not Biblical and killing for it is not Biblical. And Jesus made it clear to Pilate that Jesus' kingdom is not of this world and therefore His disciples would not fight for Him . . . not even for Jesus Himself.

So-o-o > it is tempting for me to get self-righteously huffing and puffing at ones who say what may not be true. But I think my attention will be guided by God elsewhere.

 

[Richard T]

lolololololololol

Because I have a prejudice toward organized religious people not necessarily being Christian, but scheduled often Sunday-only copy-cat worship Christians . . . I can tend to load things to mean we did not have so many really Christian men founding the nation.

And my prejudice is helped by how ones claiming to be Christians invaded the sovereign lands of Native American peoples. And yet now TV Christians are making a major stink about how people are crossing the southern border of the United States, into land which was taken by means of bloodshed from Mexicans and Native groups.

If you see what I am saying . . . Bible-claiming Europeans killed Indians, in order to enter and settle in Indian lands. And yet now, Christians are so upset if people cross the border into the land now occupied by Christians and others.


Ones used the Bible to justify what they did. But coveting someone else's land is not Biblical and killing for it is not Biblical. And Jesus made it clear to Pilate that Jesus' kingdom is not of this world and therefore His disciples would not fight for Him . . . not even for Jesus Himself.

So-o-o > it is tempting for me to get self-righteously huffing and puffing at ones who say what may not be true. But I think my attention will be guided by God elsewhere.

I can understand your prejudice. Lots of people do things in the name of God, but they follow themselves rather than God. As I said elsewhere though I guess one would have to look at their writings and conduct individually. You might enjoy some of my views on immigration in the thread below. I am far more generous in sharing land than most and I can only try and understand the history and plight of the Native American communities.

Wife of US Coast Guard member arrested on base over expired visa after security check for military housing

...yes, that was the case with my Canadian mother....(married my American Father in '52). She did not have to return to Canada to obtain her permenant residence status. My brother got Canadian birthright citizenship because our American parents lived there when he was born. He retained dual...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Richard T]

What Mr. Warren and all those who have repeated him said is, "29 had ministry degrees from seminary or Bible college"! The key here is "had ministry degrees". That's what's false. I never got into nor questioned any of the things you mention as they are irrelevant to the actual quote. Of course most of them probably had some classes in Theology as that was a common thing in colleges of the day. And of course many of them were believers in some form of Christian theology.

You say "if these Ivy Schools are basically religious does it equal a seminary education? I think the answer is yes for the undergraduate years." Granted several of the schools were established as "religious" but the quote doesn't say they attended a college that was "religious", it says "29 had 'ministry degrees'. That is what is false. I don't disagree with any of the facts you quote, but none of them support the idea that "29 had ministry degrees". They didn't! Then you conclude with "As to the claim of Pastor Warren I'm guessing that if he used a broad definition of seminary, then his number might be true." I don't care how broad a definition you use for "seminary", it's still not true that they had "ministry degrees". That is unless you have a broad definition for "degree".

Yes, you are right, the

What Mr. Warren and all those who have repeated him said is, "29 had ministry degrees from seminary or Bible college"! The key here is "had ministry degrees". That's what's false. I never got into nor questioned any of the things you mention as they are irrelevant to the actual quote. Of course most of them probably had some classes in Theology as that was a common thing in colleges of the day. And of course many of them were believers in some form of Christian theology.

You say "if these Ivy Schools are basically religious does it equal a seminary education? I think the answer is yes for the undergraduate years." Granted several of the schools were established as "religious" but the quote doesn't say they attended a college that was "religious", it says "29 had 'ministry degrees'. That is what is false. I don't disagree with any of the facts you quote, but none of them support the idea that "29 had ministry degrees". They didn't! Then you conclude with "As to the claim of Pastor Warren I'm guessing that if he used a broad definition of seminary, then his number might be true." I don't care how broad a definition you use for "seminary", it's still not true that they had "ministry degrees". That is unless you have a broad definition for "degree".

I think Harvard was as close to a seminary as you could find in the USA but the curriculum was so different. I do not think there were specific titles on their degrees like we have today so if one says ministry degrees, just being a religious school may not qualify. Examining the lives and written work probably are more telling than education about the Christianity of the Founders. Still, a good thread to try and gain some understanding on the founders background.
As you shared an irritation, the one criticism that I have with many Christian ministers is their use of Dr. when many of these so-called Dr. titles are from unaccredited institutions. In looking it up just now, it is interesting that Warren typically omits the Dr. Title though it is fully legitimate. I do not see it on his books on Amazon, His doctorate is in ministry from "Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, California. He also holds a Bachelor of Arts degree from California Baptist University and a Master of Divinity from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary." I do not know much else about his ministry though. Seems he would not be likely to intentionally mislead.