False gospels do not require you to overcome sin

[Neogaia777]

So saying you did miracles in the name of Jesus Christ is a sin?
That was all that was cited by Jesus.
Any sin would be counted in "iniquity".


I agree, as any sin is iniquity.


Then you should edit the last paragraph wherein you said "Look it was in general about those who come using His name..."
Jesus said "ye workers of iniquity".
How does that not include adulterers, liars, and thieves too?


I refer you to the last paragraphs.

God doesn't "know" sinners, doesn't hear their prayers, and doesn't recognize their good works.

I refer you to the passages I already said and quoted and stated, and the entire context of the whole chapter.

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

@Phil W.

You "want it to say or be talking about all sin and all sinners in general in that passage so you can condemn all sinners in general, etc" which is a whole other kind of sin, and twisting God's word to do it! Yeah, anyway...

Anyway, but that is not who or what the passage says and/or is referring to or who He is talking about in that passage at all, and that should be very clear to you by now, and your wrong and you sinned and your sinning and are even sinning some more even right now.

God Bless!

 

[Phil W]

@Phil W , you are clearly wrong, and denial isn't just a river in Egypt, but you go on and keep sinning, and compound that sin and that lie with even more lying and deceiving and twisting of the truth so you can only think you are right and are not sinning ok?

Even though it is a gross sin.

It is not talking about all sin and all sinners in that passage but a specific kind of sin and sinners, (of which you are being one of even right now), and you are very wrong and are sinning to say it does, end of story. And your only doing it in order to say you were not wrong or were not sinning when you clearly were and are right now, which is so very wrong on so many levels I do not even know where to begin, end of story.

Your POV is that the iniquity spoken of by Jesus is the "wonderful works" done "in Jesus' name".
My POV is that the iniquity spoken of is all sin.
Am I right so far?

 

[Neogaia777]

@Phil W

OK, I'll try to make it very, very simple for you, what part of a clear reading of these two passages do you not understand...?

Matthew 7:23- "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matthew 7:24- "And then will I profess "unto them", I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What part of a clear reading of those do you not understand...?

It is not referring to all kinds of sin and all kinds and types or all sinners in general, etc, but a specific kind of sin... And to say that it is referring to all sin and all sinners in general when it is clearly not, is a wicked twisting of scripture, for some kind of bad evil and wicked sick and twisted evil agenda to just wanting to condemn all in sin and all sinners in general in you heart, which is a very evil and sick and twisted, evil wicked "sin" (on your part), etc...

Bottom line your wrong OK...? And you sinned OK...? And please don't compound that sin with even more wicked sin now, OK...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Your POV is that the iniquity spoken of by Jesus is the "wonderful works" done "in Jesus' name".
My POV is that the iniquity spoken of is all sin.
Am I right so far?

Yes, and I am right and you are wrong, from a simple and clear reading of those passages of scripture...

And in a broader more general sense He is talking about those coming and doing anything in His name, or claiming to be His in His name, that are actually not, starting in Matthew 7:15 before it, etc...

But He is not talking about all sin and general sinners in general in these passages, and your twisting it very, very much so to say it is or think it does or He is, etc...

And I am very, very much against that kind of thing, and say it is "sin", sorry...

God Bless!

 

[Phil W]

I refer you to the passages I already said and quoted and stated, and the entire context of the whole chapter.
God Bless!

Quite frankly, I don't see any other sins written on in Matt 7.
There are however exhortations about judging others, wasting time on the "dogs", doing unto others, being wary of, and how to judge false prophets.
What sins do you refer to?

 

[Neogaia777]

Quite frankly, I don't see any other sins written on in Matt 7.

Exactly, now were getting somewhere, cause the only ones there are the ones He is referring to, ones who would commit the sin or coming and or professing to be coming and or doing things in His name that are actually not, but are false, etc...

There are however exhortations about judging others, wasting time on the "dogs", doing unto others, being wary of, and how to judge false prophets.

Yes, and...?

What sins do you refer to?

Just what it says, the ones who would commit the sin or coming and or professing to be coming and or doing things in His name that are actually not, but are false, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Phil W]

@Phil W.
You "want it to say or be talking about all sin and all sinners in general in that passage so you can condemn all sinners in general, etc" which is a whole other kind of sin, and twisting God's word to do it! Yeah, anyway...

What difference does it make of who is condemned by the verses of Matt 7?
I don't really care if our POVs are different.
The crux of the verses is that those committing iniquity "were never known" by Jesus.
Whether the sin was lying, thieving, or adultery, or, doing works in Jesus' name (which I can hardly condemn), iniquity clearly will keep some out of heaven.

Anyway, but that is not who or what the passage says and/or is referring to or who He is talking about in that passage at all, and that should be very clear to you by now, and your wrong and you sinned and your sinning and are even sinning some more even right now.
God Bless!

As the chapter started with "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:", I hope your judgements will be well thought out.

 

[Phil W]

@Phil W

OK, I'll try to make it very, very simple for you, what part of a clear reading of these two passages do you not understand...?

Matthew 7:23- "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matthew 7:24- "And then will I profess "unto them", I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What part of a clear reading of those do you not understand...?

It is not referring to all kinds of sin and all kinds and types or all sinners in general, etc, but a specific kind of sin... And to say that it is referring to all sin and all sinners in general when it is clearly not, is a wicked twisting of scripture, for some kind of bad evil and wicked sick and twisted evil agenda to just wanting to condemn all in sin and all sinners in general in you heart, which is a very evil and sick and twisted, evil wicked "sin" (on your part), etc...

Bottom line your wrong OK...? And you sinned OK...? And please don't compound that sin with even more wicked sin now, OK...
God Bless!

So, in your mind, prophesying in Jesus name is a sin?
I really can't agree.

 

[Neogaia777]

What difference does it make of who is condemned by the verses of Matt 7?
I don't really care if our POVs are different.
The crux of the verses is that those committing iniquity "were never known" by Jesus.
Whether the sin was lying, thieving, or adultery, or, doing works in Jesus' name (which I can hardly condemn), iniquity clearly will keep some out of heaven.


As the chapter started with "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:", I hope your judgements will be well thought out.

He is talking about a specific kind of inequity in those passages, or in that chapter of scripture, not "all sin and all sinners" there, etc, is all I'm trying to point out or am trying to say...

And that you and others are wrong to say that, in those passages or in that/those chapter(s) or scripture, it is saying otherwise, etc...

And that "that" is a "sin", etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

So, in your mind, prophesying in Jesus name is a sin?
I really can't agree.

Apparently Jesus is saying it is possible to be saying or doing things in His name, or to come saying and/or professing to be doing/saying things in His name, and really not be, etc...?

And that, yes, it or that is sin, or a sin, etc, to be doing that falsely, etc...

And a pretty serious one as He is going to say to them that He "never knew them", etc...

But Jesus said it not me, so take the issue up with Him if you must, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Phil W]

Apparently Jesus is saying it is possible to be saying or doing things in His name, or to come saying and/or professing to be doing/saying things in His name, and really not be, etc...?

And that, yes, it or that is sin, or a sin, etc, to be doing that falsely, etc...

And a pretty serious one as He is going to say to them that He "never knew them", etc...

But Jesus said it not me, so take the issue up with Him if you must, etc...

God Bless!

As those claiming to do miracles in Jesus' name...falsely...must also have other sins to be judged for, it really makes no difference.
Their iniquities will keep them out of heaven.

Do you think the final judgement for falsely claiming miracles in Jesus' name is any worse than for murder or adultery?
They are all going to end up in the same lake of fire.

 

[Neogaia777]

As those claiming to do miracles in Jesus' name...falsely...must also have other sins to be judged for, it really makes no difference.
Their iniquities will keep them out of heaven.

Do you think the final judgement for falsely claiming miracles in Jesus' name is any worse than for murder or adultery?
They are all going to end up in the same lake of fire.

My point was about those passages of that chapter of scripture only, that you were wrong about it/them being about all sin and all kinds of sin or sinners, etc, which I think is or was a sin, etc...

And that I don't think God takes lightly speaking (teaching, preaching, etc) His Word wrongly, etc.

Anyway,

Peace,

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

As those claiming to do miracles in Jesus' name...falsely...must also have other sins to be judged for, it really makes no difference.
Their iniquities will keep them out of heaven.

Do you think the final judgement for falsely claiming miracles in Jesus' name is any worse than for murder or adultery?
They are all going to end up in the same lake of fire.

And I don't claim to know how God judges, etc, but it seem to be more a matter of the heart, and sin (inequity) in the heart, more than anything...

Man judges by outward appearance and outward things, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[Phil W]

My point was about those passages of that chapter of scripture only, that you were wrong about it/them being about all sin and all kinds of sin or sinners, etc, which I think is or was a sin, etc...

And that I don't think God takes lightly speaking (teaching, preaching, etc) His Word wrongly, etc.

Anyway,
Peace,
God Bless!

I forgive you for accusing me of sin just because I have a different POV than you.

 

[Neogaia777]

I forgive you for accusing me of sin just because I have a different POV than you.

I prefer God's or Jesus POV, but whatever, and it's not just an accusation if it's true...

You were speaking God's Word wrongly, and not in truth, and that's also called a "lie", now, is that a "sin", yes or no...?

Anyway, I'll leave that up to you and between you and God from here on out, OK...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I forgive you for accusing me of sin just because I have a different POV than you.

And I forgive you, but only wish you to be honest and admit the truth, etc...

If you/me/we can do that, we'll get very much more farther and make a lot more progress, etc...

Anyway, I leave it between you and God, K...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I forgive you for accusing me of sin just because I have a different POV than you.

And, I actually Love you, even though it may not seem like it right now, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[Greengardener]

There's nothing wrong with overcoming sin, but it is not the gospel.

This is the gospel:
1Corinthians 15:1-5: Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

None of it is anything he teaches in his false gospel threads. Abstaining from sin is a good thing, but it will not save anyone initially, or maintain their salvation over time. His teaching adds to the gospel, making it false.

Yours is an interesting post, SeventyOne, but if I were a novice, as I once was, I would be left with abundant questions and no place to go with it. It reminds me of seeing signs that read, "Jesus saves." I wanted to be saved, but reading the sign didn't give me anywhere to go: I was still lost. Yes, I believed that Jesus saves even then, but I didn't know what He saved me from, how He saved me, or what He saved me to (insert object of preposition here, since we all hate dangling preps - like save to DO something, saved to BE something, saved to LOCATION, like heaven.) I simply didn't know and the words didn't make any of it make sense.

Because of that, I suggest that there is more to the gospel than that.

In looking in the Scriptures for most of half a century, I found that prepositional object. And it makes the good news of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, His post-resurrection interactions with the apostles and others, and the resulting spread of the good news make sense and also ties it in with what God has intended from the beginning (Genesis) in desiring a relationship with the people He created. And honestly, in reading almost everywhere, that believing, that faith, that trust, that confidence, is expressed in actions probably more than it is in statements regarding philosophy. I won't site every one of them, but in reading the last few days in Peter, James, and John, it almost looks like they are quite content to discuss what we DO as proof of what we BELIEVE. I'm reading in Psalms this morning and noticed that David does the same thing in the Psalms (generally reading around 110-115). And Luke described that Elizabeth and Zacharias were righteous before God pre-Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, but in fact, we do realize that they also still needed that sacrifice for their sins, their righteousness being in fact a description of their obedience to what God told us to do (and be), a life of holiness. David in the Psalms also manages to express the same struggles between walking uprightly and needing to be saved from our own willfulness. Over the years I've realized that's just the balance of human life, and the Scriptures encourage us to walk uprightly, to repent when we don't, to get back on track, and to keep going - all in the strong confidence that Jesus died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and abides our High Priest forever.

I don't tend to take a proof text out here and there, because it's been a source of division between those of us who desire to know the whole counsel of God. What I find is that when we take one part and insist on whatever that one part says as the whole, we miss the mark and blind ourselves to what the rest is saying. God speaks to our whole life, with the goal of having us HIS. The book of the Revelation as well as many other places in Scripture reminds me that He indeed has a judgement reserved for all of us, we do need to answer to the deeds done in the body, Jesus did tell us that some would be left out (like the virgins without the extra oil, like the person who takes what was entrusted to him by His master and fails to work with it to increase what the Master wanted, like the vines trimmed off that aren't producing fruit), Peter reminds us to add all diligence to make our calling and election sure. In writing this reply to you, my heart's goal is to encourage others as well as myself to keep looking, keep seeking, keep reading, and keep growing in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. How blessed we are to have the Scriptures to read for ourselves! Keep reading all of it - we can live by His words!

 

[Greengardener]

No one thinks the laws saves today? Of course they do. Most all religions are built on this, being good enough, doing enough good works to merit some kind of paradise. And lots of Christians are guilty of it. Although scripture tells us we are saved by grace through faith, so that we have nothing worth boasting about, man's default desire is to win his way into glory. Yes, it's a different law than the Mosaic law. It might include wearing certain clothes, refraining from style of music, refraining from movies, T.V., dancing or bacon, but it's still a bunch of rules that people genuinely believe retain their salvation for them. Never mind that scripture tells us it's all by Christ's righteousness, not our own. It's a prison people insist on building for themselves, even though one can never know if they've done enough good works to make up for their sins. Let's get real. No amount of doing good or keeping laws can merit heaven. It's all about dependence on Christ, otherwise you are just trying to offer your righteousness to God and it's like handing him used tampons, and expecting eternal life in return, according to the Word.

I would tend to agree with you except that Paul himself seemed to indicate his own concern for "having done enough" when he talked about "lest I had run in vain," or saying that he beats his own body into subjection, and the other comments he makes. And of course, Peter, James and John clearly talk about diligence. But honestly, that's not actually a works-based philosophy. It's more a "study to show yourself approved to God" and "if you abide in Me you'll bear much fruit" response. I agree with you that our own righteous is as filthy rags (and your descriptions is apt), because apart from Christ, apart from faith in Him and in the Eternal I AM, we could never work our way to His kingdom. Didn't we know Who Jesus was and is by what He did? Isn't it understood that the Holy Spirit would lead us to walk as Jesus walked? I think that's why some of us here have a hard time denying the importance of obedience that is demonstrated by behaviors and actions not for something I'll call initial acceptance but as a natural outcome of being His.

Not to you particularly, friend, bot to every reader I'll say, as I've said before, I don't tend to take proof texts to try to push my own point. The other side of the coin is also important to bring out the whole picture. Each of the writers was contributing to a larger picture, and we would do well to not fixate on one point to the exclusion of all the other valid sections of scripture, and we would especially do well not to divide brethren since it's something that God hates. Discussing, as you have, is a much better response, and I appreciate your post. I offer my view back for your consideration and that of other readers with the encouragement that we all dig into the Scriptures and live there in the good news given to us!