False gospels do not require you to overcome sin

[Kenny'sID]

No i didn't claim you had to be perfect at all, just meeting the minimum, which is not do serious sin frequently. Because the HS cannot live with you if you wallow in dirt.

You mean like living in sin, as in a practicing homosexual, practicing liar, thief, a generally mean/hateful person, and so forth. We only need to strive to be good, something so basic we generally knew how to from childhood. Yet people want to complicate it for their own reasons, and the only reason I can think of is they want to sin, nothing else explains why they defend it as that do, even when they can see it doesn't hold water.

Planning to sin is a dead give away of being in a bad place sin wise, or always being up for sin if the opportunity arises. Then there is sin of temptation, we didn't plan to do it, and are against it, but it happened, then we repent and try again to do it no more, something that isn't good but repentance makes right with God.

Just a few of my thoughts

 

[A_Thinker]

No i didn't claim you had to be perfect at all, just meeting the minimum, which is not do serious sin frequently. Because the HS cannot live with you if you wallow in dirt.

Do you offer any scripture to support your view ?

 

[A_Thinker]

I need you to point me to the exact line in that post because I honestly didn't see it, or anything close...thanks

Insisting on being spoon-fed, eh ??

It's the last line in post #171 ...

 

[A_Thinker]

Planning to sin is a dead give away of being in a bad place sin wise, or always being up for sin if the opportunity arises. Then there is sin of temptation, we didn't plan to do it, and are against it, but it happened, then we repent and try again to do it no more, something that isn't good but repentance makes right with God.

So ... David's grievous sin (i.e. lust, adultery, and murder) meant that he was always up for sin ?

 

[A_Thinker]

@A_Thinker believes sanctification is "being freed from the power of sin." What is your definition? I believe it is being set apart unto God after being cleansed of all sin, which to me happens at the same time as justification, so is back to back.

One need not be living a life of perfection to be separated unto God for service.

Witness David, Jonah, Peter, etc. ...

 

[SkyWriting]

False gospels do not require you to overcome sin, but they sure are popular!

Will a full page of 10 proof verses be enough, or do you require 5 pages of 50 verses?

“If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed,
rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched” (Mark 9:43)
Do you think Jesus is deadly serious about getting rid of sin?

“… you are that one’s slaves whom you obey,
whether (slaves) of sin leading to (eternal) death,
or (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness …
For when you were slaves of sin … the end of those things is (eternal) death.
… For the wages of sin is (eternal) death …” (Romans 6:16-23)

“For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things
of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.” (Romans 8:5-6)

“For if you live by its dictates, you will die (spiritually). But if through the power of the Spirit
you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live (eternally).
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.” (Romans 8:13-14)

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,
nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners
will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

“Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness,
lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outburst of wrath, selfish
ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like;
of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those
who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21)

“Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
For he who sows to his flesh (sins) will of the flesh reap corruption,
but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.” (Galatians 6:7-8)

“But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you,
as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting …
For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater,
has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words,
for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.” (Ephesians 5:3-6)

“Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved,
he will receive the crown of (eternal) life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him
… But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown,
brings forth (eternal) death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.” (James 1:12-16)

“God’s will is for you to be holy … live in holiness and honor …
God has called us to live holy lives, not impure lives.
So, anyone who refuses to live by these rules is rejecting God.” (1 Thessalonians 4:3-8)

Paul loved to point fingers at others. People have that problem even now.

 

[Curtis.Hilliker]

False gospels do not require you to overcome sin, but they sure are popular!

Will a full page of 10 proof verses be enough, or do you require 5 pages of 50 verses?

“If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed,
rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched” (Mark 9:43)
Do you think Jesus is deadly serious about getting rid of sin?

“… you are that one’s slaves whom you obey,
whether (slaves) of sin leading to (eternal) death,
or (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness …
For when you were slaves of sin … the end of those things is (eternal) death.
… For the wages of sin is (eternal) death …” (Romans 6:16-23)

“For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things
of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.” (Romans 8:5-6)

“For if you live by its dictates, you will die (spiritually). But if through the power of the Spirit
you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live (eternally).
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.” (Romans 8:13-14)

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,
nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners
will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

“Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness,
lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outburst of wrath, selfish
ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like;
of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those
who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21)

“Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
For he who sows to his flesh (sins) will of the flesh reap corruption,
but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.” (Galatians 6:7-8)

“But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you,
as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting …
For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater,
has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words,
for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.” (Ephesians 5:3-6)

“Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved,
he will receive the crown of (eternal) life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him
… But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown,
brings forth (eternal) death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.” (James 1:12-16)

“God’s will is for you to be holy … live in holiness and honor …
God has called us to live holy lives, not impure lives.
So, anyone who refuses to live by these rules is rejecting God.” (1 Thessalonians 4:3-8)

May I ask who in general is preaching a false gospel of not having to overcome sin?

 

[NBB]

Do you offer any scripture to support your view ?

There is various verses about the seriousness of sinning, that you get death if you sow to the flesh and life if to the spirit. But it doesn't say specifically that you will lose the filling of the HS if you sin frequently, but is true, the HS just can't stay if you sin, by sin i mean serious sin and not letting get cleaned up enough because you sin again. Because the Holy Spirit can't stay like that.
We are a temple for the HS, and we need to take care of it.

You have David that said after realizing he was in sin: 'don't take your spirit from me'

Also, there is scripture supporting my view: 'don't quench the spirit' and quenching is driving the Holy spirit away with your offenses.

 

[CharismaticLady]

One need not be living a life of perfection to be separated unto God for service.

Witness David, Jonah, Peter, etc. ...

There is a difference between sinlessness and perfection. When your sins are forgiven, you are sinless. That is a daily status of making sure you hold no unforgiveness in your heart towards anyone. Then while walking in the Spirit every day, any unknown sin you may have committed unwittingly is forgiven by God through our Advocate, Jesus Christ.

What you all may call the process of sanctification throughout your life, I call glorification, thay you may believe doesn't happen until heaven. I do not see 2 Peter 1 as overcoming sins, but becoming like Christ and towards perfection.

2 Peter 1:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

cc: @friend of

 

[Kenny'sID]

Insisting on being spoon-fed, eh ??

It's the last line in post #171 ...

Spoon fed? Funny how the attitude starts rolling in just about the time one begins to lose ground.

Then you are saying the following line from post 171 is saying we must be perfect in order to get to heaven?

You can't force the HS to live with your sins, he will go away.

Really?

 

[Kenny'sID]

So ... David's grievous sin (i.e. lust, adultery, and murder) meant that he was always up for sin ?

Not that I know of....you?

What is the point of the question?

 

[A_Thinker]

You have David that said after realizing he was in sin: 'don't take your spirit from me'

You realize that you are advocating the scenario of the Holy Spirit coming and going in us ... as we fall into sin, and subsequently, repent. This is analogous to the Catholic view where believers flutter between salvation and condemnation based upon the degree of sin in their lives ... and whether they confess to a priest and do penance.

I would counter that the believer has a true relationship with God, similar to the relationship I have with my wife and family. We don't LEAVE because some one of us sins, ... our relationship is "for better or for worse". Certainly that is the relationship most parents have with their children ... and God claims to be a better Father than any of us.

If we can hang in there during the rough spots, ... certainly God can. He did for David and any number of Bible saints (Solomon, Peter, Samson, etc.). God sent His Son (and, ultimately, the Holy Spirit) into a sinful world to SAVE US ... FROM OUR SIN. Obviously, He's willing to jump into the fray and get His hands dirty. The Holy Spirit is given to believers at our rebirths ... to help to lead and mold us into the children God desires. That takes conviction of sin, chastening, at times, and forgiveness ... all things which God has committed Himself to do.

When I married my wife, we took vows which stated "for better or for worse, ... for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, till DEATH do us part ... ".

Certainly God is no less committed to His relationship with us, His adopted children ...

 

[A_Thinker]

No i didn't claim you had to be perfect at all, just meeting the minimum, which is not do serious sin frequently. Because the HS cannot live with you if you wallow in dirt.

Do you realize how vague and inexact that is ?

What is the minimum ?

What frequency of sin is permissible ?

What is "serious" sin ? Do David's sin qualify ? Samson's ?

How serious was the sin of the priest and the Levite ... who walked past the injured man on the road to Jericho ?

According to the scriptures, God made it very plain. Sin ... is missing the mark ... of God's calling to perfection. Sin ... is the violation ... of God's Law.

Romans 3:23 For ALL have sinned, ... and come short of the glory of God.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever commits sin transgresses the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And, according to Jesus, ... ALL of God's Law is based upon (2) commands ... that we LOVE GOD with all that we have, ... and that we LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR, ... even as we love ourselves. Upon these two ... is ALL of God's Law based.

Matthew 22

34 And when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they themselves gathered together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested Him with a question: 36 “Teacher, which commandment is the greatest in the Law?”

37 Jesus declared, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

And James said ... that if we break any measure of God's Law, ... it is as if we have broken ALL of it.

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

So ... you see, the Holy Spirit is not given to perfect little angels. The Holy Spirit is bestowed to dirty little street urchins, BORN into the kingdom of God, ... but still learning and growing, ... until we reach the full measure of Christ. In effect, it is the job of the Holy Spirit to raise us up from our dirt ... and that requires getting One's hands a little dirty ....

 

[A_Thinker]

Not that I know of....you?

What is the point of the question?

I am trying to understand "your words" ...

"Planning to sin is a dead give away of being in a bad place sin wise, or always being up for sin if the opportunity arises."

Certainly David planned a great deal of his sin regarding Bathsheba ... and her husband Uriah. Did such make him "always being up for sin if the opportunity arises." ???

 

[A_Thinker]

Spoon fed? Funny how the attitude starts rolling in just about the time one begins to lose ground.

Then you are saying the following line from post 171 is saying we must be perfect in order to get to heaven?

Forgive me for thinking that you were simply being obtuse.

Part of the issue, I think, ... is that you are picking up on a discussion between myself and another poster. In so doing, some degree of confusion has ensued.

Perhaps it would be best if I were to state clearly my position ...

I don't believe that the Holy Spirit leaves a believer who sins.

In essence, I believe that God gifts the Holy Spirit to His children (in truth, spiritual babes) ... to get them ready for eternal life with God. That's sanctification (i.e. making them saints).

I believe that God will do His best ... to raise His children into the fullness of Christ. I don't believe that God expects perfection ... or sinlessness of His children as they are being raised. I believe that sinless perfection is His ultimate desire for us ... but that He realizes that we are still children (in training).

 

[LightLoveHope]

False gospels do not require you to overcome sin, but they sure are popular!

Will a full page of 10 proof verses be enough, or do you require 5 pages of 50 verses?

“If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed,
rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched” (Mark 9:43)
Do you think Jesus is deadly serious about getting rid of sin?

“… you are that one’s slaves whom you obey,
whether (slaves) of sin leading to (eternal) death,
or (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness …
For when you were slaves of sin … the end of those things is (eternal) death.
… For the wages of sin is (eternal) death …” (Romans 6:16-23)

“For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things
of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.” (Romans 8:5-6)

“For if you live by its dictates, you will die (spiritually). But if through the power of the Spirit
you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live (eternally).
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.” (Romans 8:13-14)

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,
nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners
will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

“Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness,
lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outburst of wrath, selfish
ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like;
of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those
who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21)

“Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
For he who sows to his flesh (sins) will of the flesh reap corruption,
but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.” (Galatians 6:7-8)

“But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you,
as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting …
For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater,
has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words,
for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.” (Ephesians 5:3-6)

“Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved,
he will receive the crown of (eternal) life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him
… But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown,
brings forth (eternal) death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.” (James 1:12-16)

“God’s will is for you to be holy … live in holiness and honor …
God has called us to live holy lives, not impure lives.
So, anyone who refuses to live by these rules is rejecting God.” (1 Thessalonians 4:3-8)

Death is a real problem and we all know we are rushing towards it.
But like all parachutists if someone gives you a chute that seems to work you will take it.
Sin or hurtful behaviour is always simple, so resolving guilt and saying the consequences are not relevant, or even better can be ignored while sinning, it is putting sinners in heaven.

What a lot of these teachers miss is John the Baptist, full of the Holy Spirit from birth, preached repenting and walking the straight path, not as a joke to get people to call out to God, but to actually do it.

The hardest thing in all of creation is to actually repent, fully, in dust and ashes, in brokenness and humility giving all to Christ. And this is not a one off occasion but a walk of transformation where we are continually refined and taught, growing in grace and favour.

A lot of false teachers will say a promise "Eternal life" is given to those who believe, past, present, future, without constraints, other than a grabbing of belief. The idea is it is the belief that saves, like knowing a helicopter will come to take you from the building that is disappearing in the flood. Actually getting on the roof, getting hooked up, and being winched to safety are not necessary, because you know the promise is true. Only a fool would hold belief without following the actions has value, literally because they will die in their situation, even though safety was within their grasp.

Jesus is very blunt about this.
"I tell you the truth, I don't know you" Matt 25:12

 

[LightLoveHope]

No i didn't claim you had to be perfect at all, just meeting the minimum, which is not do serious sin frequently. Because the HS cannot live with you if you wallow in dirt.

Repentance is about working with ourselves, our weaknesses and our strengths.
Look at King David, who fell into adultery and murder, yet repented and came humbly to God.
Or Peter who denied Jesus, after impetuously claiming to be willing to die for Jesus, yet was actually wanting to be enthusiastic, yet he was not quite sure what about, except he hoped it was the overthrow of the romans. Letting Jesus die, and not fighting for him, was not part of the plan, and when he realised this was the road, he repented and came back to Jesus, knowing Jesus knew it all beforehand, yet his faith stood strong. God bless you

 

[NBB]

You realize that you are advocating the scenario of the Holy Spirit coming and going in us ... as we fall into sin, and subsequently, repent. This is analogous to the Catholic view where believers flutter between salvation and condemnation based upon the degree of sin in their lives ... and whether they confess to a priest and do penance.

I would counter that the believer has a true relationship with God, similar to the relationship I have with my wife and family. We don't LEAVE because some one of us sins, ... our relationship is "for better or for worse". Certainly that is the relationship most parents have with their children ... and God claims to be a better Father than any of us.

If we can hang in there during the rough spots, ... certainly God can. He did for David and any number of Bible saints (Solomon, Peter, Samson, etc.). God sent His Son (and, ultimately, the Holy Spirit) into a sinful world to SAVE US ... FROM OUR SIN. Obviously, He's willing to jump into the fray and get His hands dirty. The Holy Spirit is given to believers at our rebirths ... to help to lead and mold us into the children God desires. That takes conviction of sin, chastening, at times, and forgiveness ... all things which God has committed Himself to do.

When I married my wife, we took vows which stated "for better or for worse, ... for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, till DEATH do us part ... ".

Certainly God is no less committed to His relationship with us, His adopted children ...

Your fellowship with God gets hurt if you start sinning, and i was talking about the filling of the HS, which i don't know if you believe as i do about it, the spirit does not totally abandon you but you can't expect to sin a lot and be close to God, or stay filled with the HS. In my experience at least.

 

[NBB]

Do you realize how vague and inexact that is ?

What is the minimum ?

What frequency of sin is permissible ?

What is "serious" sin ? Do David's sin qualify ? Samson's ?

How serious was the sin of the priest and the Levite ... who walked past the injured man on the road to Jericho ?

According to the scriptures, God made it very plain. Sin ... is missing the mark ... of God's calling to perfection. Sin ... is the violation ... of God's Law.

Romans 3:23 For ALL have sinned, ... and come short of the glory of God.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever commits sin transgresses the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And, according to Jesus, ... ALL of God's Law is based upon (2) commands ... that we LOVE GOD with all that we have, ... and that we LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR, ... even as we love ourselves. Upon these two ... is ALL of God's Law based.

Matthew 22

34 And when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they themselves gathered together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested Him with a question: 36 “Teacher, which commandment is the greatest in the Law?”

37 Jesus declared, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

And James said ... that if we break any measure of God's Law, ... it is as if we have broken ALL of it.

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

So ... you see, the Holy Spirit is not given to perfect little angels. The Holy Spirit is bestowed to dirty little street urchins, BORN into the kingdom of God, ... but still learning and growing, ... until we reach the full measure of Christ. In effect, it is the job of the Holy Spirit to raise us up from our dirt ... and that requires getting One's hands a little dirty ....

God does not abandon us, and he has a lot of patience and love us, but we just can't expect sinning a lot and that our 'fellowship' with him is not going to suffer, something is going to happen to your relationship with God, and fellowship in the spirit. Yes God still is going to treat us as his childs, and we can later overcome the sins and be restored perfectly, etc. But there are some consequences to sinning, like i said.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I am trying to understand "your words" ...

"Planning to sin is a dead give away of being in a bad place sin wise, or always being up for sin if the opportunity arises."

Certainly David planned a great deal of his sin regarding Bathsheba ... and her husband Uriah. Did such make him "always being up for sin if the opportunity arises." ???

And you don't think David was in a bad place sin wise when he was planning and following through? I guess I didn't understand you because what I said seemed so obvious to me.