false converts

[knownbeforetime]

I was watching Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron on TBN. They were talking about false converts. The gist of their talk was that christians don't sin. I'm thinking,"I've sinned many times since becoming a christian!"

I've prayed a prayer of acceptance. I've repented for sins I've committed since then. I read and study the word.

Are there false converts? Am I a false convert?

 

[OrthodoxServant86]

No, you are not a false convert . If one were to apply their logic, then even they who preached this would be condemning themselves to separation from God (by pride and judgement).

A false convert, in my opinion, is one who accepts the outward rituals of Christian conversion (sinner's prayer, baptism, confirmation, eucharist, etc...) while having a secret motive in his heart that does not involve the life of repentance and love.

In love and peace,

-Justin

 

[California Tim]

First, turn TBN OFF and block the channel. Second consider that many so-called pastors who think they are saved actually are not as these verses state:

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. (Matt 7:15)
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' (Matt 7:21-23)

Anyone who preaches a Gospel other than what is taught in the Bible is a false prophet. Even though they invoke the name of Christ and even do wonders in His name, they are unsaved. A quick study in Christian apologetics online will reveal a disturbing propensity on TBN to foster and promote heretical teaching and wolves in sheeps clothing. That is not to say they all are - but it's not worth the risk trying to weed them out - just tune out, pick up your own Bible and begin reading.

Everything you need to know and be secure in your own salvation is contained in the Word. By studying it you will become aware of what is true and what is false. True salvation is provided freely to anyone who believes in the sacrifice Christ made and is willing to confess that belief. NO works are added as a contingency.

 

[knownbeforetime]

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. (Matt 7:15)
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' (Matt 7:21-23)

That's funny, they used this same verse to argue the other way around.

I guess it's tough to hear...I mean, how would you know?! Can you smell smoke in your house and KNOW it's coming from the meal you're cooking and STILL be SURE that the house isn't burning?

I have this fear that theologians have been getting it wrong all along. And I guess I'm slightly influenced from what I've heard in the past.

 

[LiberatedChick]

I was watching Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron on TBN. They were talking about false converts. The gist of their talk was that christians don't sin. I'm thinking,"I've sinned many times since becoming a christian!"

I've prayed a prayer of acceptance. I've repented for sins I've committed since then. I read and study the word.

Are there false converts? Am I a false convert?

All Christians sin. It's in mans nature to sin and we don't stop being human when we become Christian I think any Christian who tells you that they don't sin is lying (which is a sin ) because if they didn't sin they'd be perfect and only Jesus is perfect. The difference between us and others...we repent, try our hardest not to repeat the sin and with the Lords help we hopefully succeed. I think a false convert would be someone that doesn't repent...they're someone that doesn't practice what they preach and talks about Christianity and/or goes through the motions but doesn't care about the sins they commit and repenting them. A false convert would strike me as being someone that says "Hey I'm a Christian" but then doesn't actually act like one.

 

[Lynn73]

No, I don't think you're a false convert. After all, doesn't the Bible say that if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive them. You can't confess what you don't have. My idea of a false convert is like some of the others. Someone who goes through all the outward appearances but never truly knows Christ in the heart. True Christians still sin, unfortunately. We have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous One.

 

[katherine2001]

Also, in 1 John, John says that if you say you have no sin, then you are in delusion. As Orthodox Servant said, if nothing else, they are guilty of pride and judgment, which are definitely sins. Also, don't worry about false converts. That is God's decision to make, and only He can make it. It is not our place to decide who is a false convert or who is "saved" or "not saved". Our job is to live our own lives by God's grace, becoming less sinful every day, and repenting every time we do. It's a lifetime of falling, getting up, repenting, and struggling agains the sin each time the temptation comes.

California Tim has a good suggestion. Don't watch the TV preachers--I can't even stand to stay 5 mins on that channel.

 

[BarbB]

No, I don't think you're a false convert. After all, doesn't the Bible say that if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive them. You can't confess what you don't have. My idea of a false convert is like some of the others. Someone who goes through all the outward appearances but never truly knows Christ in the heart. True Christians still sin, unfortunately. We have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous One.

I watched that show and contrary to postings about TBN, this show is great. It has totally affected how I approach witnessing to others and the methods taught by the show helped me to lead my brother-in-law meaningfully to Christ. Watch something before you criticize it please. You can check out the program by going to wayofthemaster.com.

Lynn - this is exactly what Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron were saying. I have wondered about this subject myself. When someone tells me they are a committed/saved/born-again Christian, I expect to see some good fruit. If I don't, then I suspect that they are false converts. The show explained that the false convert seed takes, but is on stoney ground and does not last. It produces no fruit. Unlike seed planted in fertile soil!!!!!

I find that my list of sins change as I repent of current sins and DO NOT DO THEM AGAIN. If you are committing the same sins over and over again, I think you have to consider that you might not be as committed to Jesus as you thought.

 

[knownbeforetime]

newlamb, I know what the show's purpose is. Learning to witness is a good thing. Here's a question: How do you judge good fruit? What is the definition of "fruit"? What if Christian A has been one for a number of years and has been totally transformed. However, she is no good with witnessing. She watches Ray Comfort's to learn but, instead of teaching her, they tell her she's a false convert the whole time!

So, being totally heartbroken, with no guidance from the people that tell her she's a false convert, she resorts to posting on CF.com

They spent a whole hour telling the "real" christians how to weed out the "false" christians and get them to...I don't know, they didn't say.

 

[Leimeng]

~ Having met Nick Cameron before I can tell you he is a strong believer in Christ. His teaching on false conversion is that at the point of conversion, an individual will start to grow. If they do not grow and in due season produce good fruit, there should be some bells and whistles ringing that something is not right. If you look at historical Christianity you will find this to be true. Even some calvinist agree with this. It is a given in Arminian Christianity.
~ The statement that TBN produces or teaches heresies is false. In fact is that the teachers featured, for the most part, clearly teach from the Word of GOD.
~ A study of various Christian apologetics online will reveal that most of the so called apologetics sites continually misquote and otherwise mis-state numerous teachers. This is either intentinal or sloppy scholarship. To promote false teachers and their accusations against other Christian ministers is something that needs to be considered.
~ I encourage you all to read the Bible and let the Holy Spirit teach you. If you must have a TV in your house and watch it, then TBN is a very good channel to keep your TV turned to.
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

Wrinkled Was Not One of the Things I Wanted to Be When I Grew Up.

 

[knownbeforetime]

I encourage you all to read the Bible and let the Holy Spirit teach you.

I take offense to that. I hardly ever watch TBN. However, Time Changer was on and I hadn't seen it. (I was disappointed.) Ray and Kirk came on afterwards.

It was because of my Bible reading that I became wary of their teaching.

I read the Bible, and learn from it. I have learned extraordinary things.

I learned that Jesus died and rose again for my sins.

I learned not to dress like a ho, get drunk, or do drugs.

The only problem is nobody wants to hear about my good fortune in finding Christ.

The only false convert is one who tries to pull one over on the clergy. (i.e. pretend to pray the sinner's prayer to, I don't know, try to get popular or something.) However, I was absolutely serious when I prayed. My life has changed. That's how I know I'm a Christian.

 

[BarbB]

newlamb, I know what the show's purpose is. Learning to witness is a good thing. Here's a question: How do you judge good fruit? What is the definition of "fruit"? What if Christian A has been one for a number of years and has been totally transformed. However, she is no good with witnessing. She watches Ray Comfort's to learn but, instead of teaching her, they tell her she's a false convert the whole time!

So, being totally heartbroken, with no guidance from the people that tell her she's a false convert, she resorts to posting on CF.com

They spent a whole hour telling the "real" christians how to weed out the "false" christians and get them to...I don't know, they didn't say.

OK, knownbeforetime, another "what if". What if that brokenhearted Christian's strength is not to convert others (I know that mine isn't - only my bro-in-law in 3 years), but to witness with her life. Tell her story to others and let them see the 180 degree change in her. I don't think that Kirk and Ray were saying that someone like you is a false convert. Not someone who's changed as you say you have.

I apologize if I came across harshly, but I get sooooo annoyed at people who throw the baby (a good TV show) out with the bathwater (TBN). I should never have taken it out on you. btw, I agree with you about Timechanger - interesting storyline, but naively done. Except the end where Gavin McLeod tries sending the Bible to 2100, then 2090, then 2080, etc. That was very cool!

Anyway, pm me if you like and we can talk about why you think you might be a false convert.

 

[wsgm]

I don't watch TBN regularly, but I catch snipets here and there. What I have heard worries me. I am not familiar with all the shows, and some may be good, but I would advise you to be very cautious. Much of what I have seen appears to be very flashy and based on the experience rather than driven by truth.

If anyone (on TBN, in the pulit of your church, on a streetcorner, or on a meesage board) pulls out one verse to make a point, go to that passage and read the context and see if that is what the author is really saying. If one verse is unclear, find other verses that deal with the same topic. Let Scripture interpret Scripture. God's Word will never contradict itself.

As you study more and more of the Word, you will be able to recognize when something sounds fishy. Be espesially warry of anyone that promises health and wealth on earth if you believe in Jesus and send them money. The Bible and history are full of examples of faithful believers who lived in suffering and poverty. We are to look to our eternal reward, not a earthly one.

As far as witnessing goes, it's something I struggle with too. But bear in mind that confrontational evangelism (striking up conversations about the gospel with people you don't know) is only one kind of evangelism, and probably not the most effective. You are much more likely to have a lasting impact if you build a relationship with a person first. Just try to build friendships with nonbelievers, and live out the gospel in front of them everyday. Eventually, you will get a chance to talk to them about spiritual things and share the gospel with them.

As far as false converts go, there are plenty of people who claim to be Christians but are truely lost. Some are intentionally decieving other people, but some are decieved themselves. If a person claims to be Christian, but his life does not reflect it, someone needs to confront him so that he will return to Christ or see his need for Him. A true believer cannot permanently fall away, but a false Christian may. There is a saying, "Faith that fails before the finish was faulty from the first."

 

[Lynn73]

I watched that show and contrary to postings about TBN, this show is great. It has totally affected how I approach witnessing to others and the methods taught by the show helped me to lead my brother-in-law meaningfully to Christ. Watch something before you criticize it please. You can check out the program by going to wayofthemaster.com.

Lynn - this is exactly what Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron were saying. I have wondered about this subject myself. When someone tells me they are a committed/saved/born-again Christian, I expect to see some good fruit. If I don't, then I suspect that they are false converts. The show explained that the false convert seed takes, but is on stoney ground and does not last. It produces no fruit. Unlike seed planted in fertile soil!!!!!

I find that my list of sins change as I repent of current sins and DO NOT DO THEM AGAIN. If you are committing the same sins over and over again, I think you have to consider that you might not be as committed to Jesus as you thought.

What if your life doesn't seem to show a lot of fruit or growth, yet you remember when you asked Jesus into your heart and that there was a definite change? I don't know, I don't think that looking at a person's outward life can always be used to decide if that person is saved or not. Christians can go through times of backsliding or stagnation. I think that's where I am, stagnating. Struggling.

 

[YahwehLove]

I was watching Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron on TBN. They were talking about false converts. The gist of their talk was that christians don't sin. I'm thinking,"I've sinned many times since becoming a christian!"

I've prayed a prayer of acceptance. I've repented for sins I've committed since then. I read and study the word.

Are there false converts? Am I a false convert?

I can tell you about a false convert.

I worked with this really arrongant, boastful young guy a few years back.
He was married, yet always seemed to be on the prowl for some woman to mess around with.
He would come into work constantly tellin the guy next to him of his exploits.
One day his buddy was off, so he came to me to talk about them.
I told him flat out I didnt want to hear about it and I thought his wife should leave him.

Well, he seemed to get somewhat remorseful..
Over the next few weeks he seemed to be changing in his attitude towards his wife and wasnt cussing and talking so vulgar.

One day he comes to me and says ''guess what"
Im not really sure I want to hear anything from him considering what may come of of his mouth, but I asked ''what?"

He said "I got saved".
IN the back of my mind Im not quite convinced, but I went ahead and played the part and told him I was very happy and if he needed to talk or any help to just ask and Id always be there.

There were also many Catholics, other protestants there and even the Jehovahs Witness who worked there.
We had New Agers and even a part time Satanist that were all on the payroll at this place.

Well, I noticed he never did come to ask me about anything.
I worked pretty close to his area, within talking distance if we spoke a bit loudly or we could even have talked quietly once our machines were running.

At one point Im going to the restroom and I pass by him and this guy and overheard them talking.
He said something about a girl and drinking and feeling this girl up who was passed out on his couch.
As I passed, he turned and managed to get enough of the story out to me before I could shut him down that I knew his whole conversion was not right.

He wasnt struggling with sin.
He was boasting about how this 19 year old girl had come to his wifes party and they were all very drunk.
I guess he decided not to get drunk knowing that they all would pass out then he could well...
And he did from his story.
This little girl came over to a trusted friends house and when she passed out he messed with things he had no right to.

In my opinion THIS is a false convert.
Someone who says ''Im sorry for my sins'' and may seemingly mean it at the time, but then there is no real change.

Sure we slip sometimes.
But dont let anyone fool you into thinking Christians never stumble/sin.
We do on occasion.

Every man Ive ever ran accross who taught this doctrine that we can be perfect here has at some point shown themselves to be worse sinners than Ive ever witnessed out of the church.

I think what they do is ignore their little sins.
They stop racing the race, thinkin that they have attained perfection.
Not even Paul was that arrogant.

 

[Celticflower]

If anyone (on TBN, in the pulit of your church, on a streetcorner, or on a meesage board) pulls out one verse to make a point, go to that passage and read the context and see if that is what the author is really saying. If one verse is unclear, find other verses that deal with the same topic. Let Scripture interpret Scripture. God's Word will never contradict itself.

Excellent advice!!

Celtie