False Conversions/ salvations

[rnmomof7]

I think most of us have seen or know of people that answered an altar call or were raised in a church and felt that they were saved, but later fell away from the church all together or went into a cult of some sort.

We see this in greater numbers since the advent of Finneys "version" of the gospel has taken root .

(article here if you are not familiar with Finney

http://www.founders.org/FJ09/article4_fr.html )


Paul address it a bit in his letters

1Cr 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

and here

2Cr 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

and John

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


and Peter

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


Paul also advises how to deal with them


Tts 3:11 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;


How do you see people that have "exchanged the truth for a lie".

Do we assume they are reprobates after several attempts to restore them ?Do we continue to present the gospel in trust that if they are elect that God will REALLY open their eyes ? Or do we walk away and leave them to God?

 

[reformedfan]

this is why church discipline & excommunication are so helpful, & one of the marks of a good church: once a person has been excommunicated, they are to be treated like a heathen & witnessed to, never as a bro or sis.

Makes the 'guessing game' of 'are they or aren't they' easier.

 

[Proeliator]

This topic actually concerns me, as my kids answered an altar call at Billy Graham, and I kinda wonder where they sit sometimes, as I have since learned that altar calls are not always all that, "lasting?"

 

[JJB]

This topic probably concerns most Christians. It always brings to mind for me the parable of the seeds that fall on different grounds. I have several friends who have "fallen away".

Shadrach, don't fret about your children. Keep praying for them as well as talking to them about God(when you rise, when you walk by the way, when you lie down Duet 6). One book I found very helpful regarding children is called When you Rise Up, by RC Sproul, Jr. It's focus is on homeschooling, but could easily apply to spiritual training of your children. Teach them how to hide God's word in their heart.

If I am going on too long, let me know. I just happen to have a soft heart for children.

 

[rnmomof7]

This topic actually concerns me, as my kids answered an altar call at Billy Graham, and I kinda wonder where they sit sometimes, as I have since learned that altar calls are not always all that, "lasting?"

I do not think we can say that God has not and will not continue to use the scripture and the altar call to repent and believe to bring people to Himself .
But these can be as much tradition or ritual or superstitious as any practice in the non evangelical churches.

Like all experiences they can be the work of God or the work of men. That is what I was asking about. What do we do when there is no growth and no fruit or the people are drawn into a cult or something ?

BTW my youngest son flew to the altar in response to an altar call at age 7.

He is now a man with a wife and daughter and remains as committed to Christ as he was that day( now a Calvinist BTW)

Raise your children in the fear and admonition of God and then trust the providence of God

 

[5solas]

I highly recommend A.W.Pink's book "Studies on Saving Faith" - it's just excellent.
It should be read by all who call themselves "Christians"....
And you can read it online here



PS: perhaps you read the "dialogues" at the end first!

 

[A New Dawn]

I do not think we can say that God has not and will not continue to use the scripture and the altar call to repent and believe to bring people to Himself .
But these can be as much tradition or ritual or superstitious as any practice in the non evangelical churches.

Like all experiences they can be the work of God or the work of men. That is what I was asking about. What do we do when there is no growth and no fruit or the people are drawn into a cult or something ?

BTW my youngest son flew to the altar in response to an altar call at age 7.

He is now a man with a wife and daughter and remains as committed to Christ as he was that day( now a Calvinist BTW)

Raise your children in the fear and admonition of God and then trust the providence of God

I grew up in a church that does not use alter calls and I have always been suspicious of them. I don't doubt that God can work in that manner, but I see the big possibility of someone responding to an alter call during an emotional response instead of as the result of being touched by the Holy Spirit. Emotional responses, while profound, are often very short lived, and if they are not followed up by the touch of the HS, I don't think real conversion takes place.

Now that I am out of that church, I still have concerns about alter calls, but I kinda wish that the church I am attending had them just so I could talk to someone. The church is a mega-church, but the only non-denominational church in town (that I know of), and being so large, it is hard to meet anyone to find out what the steps of doing anything are.

 

[Proeliator]

".
Shadrach, don't fret about your children. Keep praying for them as well as talking to them about God(when you rise, when you walk by the way, when you lie down Duet 6). One book I found very helpful regarding children is called When you Rise Up, by RC Sproul, Jr. It's focus is on homeschooling, but could easily apply to spiritual training of your children. Teach them how to hide God's word in their heart.

If I am going on too long, let me know. I just happen to have a soft heart for children.

Once again the "coincedences" amaze me, as we have just pulled our kids from public school and have started homeschooling them.
They are 5 and 7, and have learned moire in the 2 weeks at home than the entire first month.

 

[JJB]

shadrach,
if you'd like to read the book, pm me with your address. I'd be more than happy to pass it on to you.

Congrats on the step of faith to homeschool. It's an adventure and one we wouldn't want to pass up!

 

[Erinwilcox]

I know that all five of my older male cousins said the sinner's prayer at a young age. They promptly forgot about the walk in newness of life and remembered only the "now you're saved, never doubt for an instant." Now, the youngest of them is twenty-one and in jail, another is a heavy drinker, another had a baby out of wed-lock, and I won't even mention the sin of fourth. None of them care enough to even get up on Sundays to go to church. Their lives are void of religion. But they all will swear right and left that they are Christians because they said the sinner's prayer and were baptized. But where is the fruit in their lives? You know a tree by its fruit. None of these four have any fruit whatsoever. Would I still consider them saved because they claim to be? No, I would not. As much as I love these boys, I cannot lie to them or myself and say that they are saved. There is no evidence of fruit or faith. It grieves me to even think about them going to hell, but I know that if they died right now. . . I think that this also changes things in the way of evangelism. Now I know that I need to plead with them to repent of their sins and come to Christ, rather than beg them to act more like Christians (which, unfortunately, my grandmother tends to do). By the way, they were all "converted" by the easy believism techniques of Finney. I'm pretty sure that they were taught "once saved, always saved, never doubt it or you'll be calling God a liar." Look where this dangerous doctrine has them now. They use religion as an "insurance policy" to use to get on God's good side when they die. But how many will cry out in that day "Lord, Lord did we not. . ." and He will say "Away from me, I never knew you."

The oldest of all of these boys has a wife and three children. He and his wife are good Christians who are raising their children in a godly manner. He alone, of all of them, has perservered in his faith. It is such an encouragement to watch his children respect, honor, and obey their parents.
BTW, we are one of those really close-knit Italian families who know everything about eachother's lives! That is why I know my cousins so well. Also, they are first cousins.

In a way, I think that you could look to perserverence of the saints to help answer this question. Those who perservere to the end will be saved.

 

[rnmomof7]

When I asked this question it actually had a base of our belief in the perseverance of the Saints .

I am sure we all know people that professed Christ and then went off to a Church that denies salvation by faith alone, thus in our economy we have to look and wonder if that person was ever saved to begin with or if they had simply made a profession in their head and not their heart.

A Saved man would not walk away from Christ like that in our perseverance doctrine.

I do think the process of emotional aspects or social acceptance can make someone respond because it seems the expected thing at an altar call or a Sunday school class or even because mom and dad want you to say the prayer. That would lead to a false salvation.

I know a man that I sat under that was a minister. He was a convert to that faith, it was his 3rd conversion..

1st he was Jewish , then baptist, then Pentecostal, he left the area and then he became a Reformed Anglican priest , and recently became a Roman Catholic priest.

It is clear this man has never had a commitment to the churches/ doctrines he joined or later Pastored.

I believe this man needs to be looked at as unsaved and in need of regeneration. In each case it seems he was influenced by the people he was surrounded by .

Can a truly regenerate man have such confusion? Can a truly regenerate man move from one church to another like that and move from a belief a belief in Sola Fide and Sola gracia and the preservation of the saints to churches that dismiss that as false teaching or heresies?

 

[JJB]

When I asked this question it actually had a base of our belief in the perseverance of the Saints .

I am sure we all know people that professed Christ and then went off to a Church that denies salvation by faith alone, thus in our economy we have to look and wonder if that person was ever saved to begin with or if they had simply made a profession in their head and not their heart.

A Saved man would not walk away from Christ like that in our perseverance doctrine.

I do think the process of emotional aspects or social acceptance can make someone respond because it seems the expected thing at an altar call or a Sunday school class or even because mom and dad want you to say the prayer. That would lead to a false salvation.

I know a man that I sat under that was a minister. He was a convert to that faith, it was his 3rd conversion..

1st he was Jewish , then baptist, then Pentecostal, he left the area and then he became a Reformed Anglican priest , and recently became a Roman Catholic priest.

It is clear this man has never had a commitment to the churches/ doctrines he joined or later Pastored.

I believe this man needs to be looked at as unsaved and in need of regeneration. In each case it seems he was influenced by the people he was surrounded by .

Can a truly regenerate man have such confusion? Can a truly regenerate man move from one church to another like that and move from a belief a belief in Sola Fide and Sola gracia and the preservation of the saints to churches that dismiss that as false teaching or heresies?

The man you're describing, rnmom, sounds more interested in fashion than commitment. God is not a God of confusion. SOunds like someone needs to do a sit-down talk with him.

Are you still in contact with him? Not for the sit-down, but you seem genuinely concerned.

 

[rnmomof7]

The man you're describing, rnmom, sounds more interested in fashion than commitment. God is not a God of confusion. SOunds like someone needs to do a sit-down talk with him.

Are you still in contact with him? Not for the sit-down, but you seem genuinely concerned.

He was an excellent teacher and a nice guy, hard to consider he was an unregenerate pastor /teacher

He is well known for his ministry, and no not near me at all.

But i use him only as an example.

Do we assume that people that backslide or denounce their faith are unregenerate and were never saved to begin with?

 

[JJB]

He was an excellent teacher and a nice guy, hard to consider he was an unregenerate pastor /teacher

He is well known for his ministry, and no not near me at all.

But i use him only as an example.

Do we assume that people that backslide or denounce their faith are unregenerate and were never saved to begin with?

It is a difficult question for most Christians because we probably all know someone like this, or had a close friend who denounced their faith or at least are not living out their faith. But my prayer is that in time they can/will return. Are we to treat them as an unbeliever?

I think someone who denounces their faith publically, that there is little hope that remains for them. Someone who is backslidden, I think, God may still straighten them out.

There were four of us in H.S. who all hung around and were all Christians. But today, one of us does not practice faith. It is hard to see her and not recall the cool discussions we had and bible studies as well as ministries we shared!

There was a time in my life when you would never know that I was a Christian. It wasn't that I didn't believe, I just flat out didn't want to practice it! But here I am now as a prodigal.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Wow.. there's a few threads talking about this. I will repeat what I have posted in another thread.

In my view, those who wait to accept Christ so they can play with the world knowing that God do not approve. This is a form apostasy where there are those who are playing "Christians" who are attending church. Some are elders, some are deacons, some are serving in other positions. Many of them are members. They rather enjoy the world before accepting Christ as Lord and Savior. Reason: Serving Christ or serving sin always begins with the heart where a person is turning back which is deliberate and decisive. The heart of apostasy is whether a person was saved in the first place. In our hearts, are we in the world or in Christ? Slipping back into unbelief is very highly unlikely since faith begins in the heart which God have given us. Faith is a gift, whether a person actually "recieved" faith as a gift is the question. This is where Christ talks about "Cost of Discipleship". Discipleship requires following Jesus on His terms. A person who looks back is not fit to be His disciple (Luke 9:62). I must love Jesus more than myself and any other persons in my life (Luke 14:26). Remember a story about Sodom and Gomorrah? The angels warned Lot and his family not to look back when they run from the cities or they will die (see Genesis 19). Lot's wife died when she looked back. Looking back means you are still holding on to sin or sins that you will miss.

John 6:66 "From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him."

If want to serve sin, you will die in sin. If you want to serve Christ, you will die in Christ. It is that simple.

 

[Jon_]

There was a time in my life when you would never know that I was a Christian. It wasn't that I didn't believe, I just flat out didn't want to practice it! But here I am now as a prodigal.

That was me for the first twenty-two years of my life...

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Imblessed]

That was me for the first twenty-two years of my life...

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

WOW! You've come a long way in one year!

 

[Jon_]

WOW! You've come a long way in one year!

No kidding. And it hasn't even been a full year. A true testament to God's grace. My conversion was certainly none of my own doing.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[A New Dawn]

No kidding. And it hasn't even been a full year. A true testament to God's grace. My conversion was certainly none of my own doing.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

I hear ya! Neither was mine!

 

[Reformationist]

I know that all five of my older male cousins said the sinner's prayer at a young age. They promptly forgot about the walk in newness of life and remembered only the "now you're saved, never doubt for an instant." Now, the youngest of them is twenty-one and in jail, another is a heavy drinker, another had a baby out of wed-lock, and I won't even mention the sin of fourth. None of them care enough to even get up on Sundays to go to church. Their lives are void of religion. But they all will swear right and left that they are Christians because they said the sinner's prayer and were baptized. But where is the fruit in their lives? You know a tree by its fruit. None of these four have any fruit whatsoever. Would I still consider them saved because they claim to be? No, I would not. As much as I love these boys, I cannot lie to them or myself and say that they are saved. There is no evidence of fruit or faith. It grieves me to even think about them going to hell, but I know that if they died right now. . . I think that this also changes things in the way of evangelism. Now I know that I need to plead with them to repent of their sins and come to Christ, rather than beg them to act more like Christians (which, unfortunately, my grandmother tends to do). By the way, they were all "converted" by the easy believism techniques of Finney. I'm pretty sure that they were taught "once saved, always saved, never doubt it or you'll be calling God a liar." Look where this dangerous doctrine has them now. They use religion as an "insurance policy" to use to get on God's good side when they die. But how many will cry out in that day "Lord, Lord did we not. . ." and He will say "Away from me, I never knew you."

The oldest of all of these boys has a wife and three children. He and his wife are good Christians who are raising their children in a godly manner. He alone, of all of them, has perservered in his faith. It is such an encouragement to watch his children respect, honor, and obey their parents.
BTW, we are one of those really close-knit Italian families who know everything about eachother's lives! That is why I know my cousins so well. Also, they are first cousins.

In a way, I think that you could look to perserverence of the saints to help answer this question. Those who perservere to the end will be saved.

Erin, let me just say that until now I had not had the pleasure of reading one of your posts. This was well written, biblically grounded, and pleasantly compassionate. Thank you for sharing this. The Lord has truly blessed you at such a young age (not saying you're a kid ) to know such truths.

God bless,
Don