Fallen Nature Testing

[WebersHome]

.
The human mind consists of consciousness and sub-consciousness. The sub area is where we our minds store suppressed thoughts, feelings, and desires; in other words: things we'd just as soon forget rather than think about.

For example: most Christians cannot admit, even to themselves, their honest opinions about God because those opinions are not only unacceptable, but also unthinkable. Those thoughts and feelings about God are so disturbing that sometimes when one leaks out for us to contemplate, it actually makes us wince, possibly even shudder; and sometimes even momentarily close our eyes and grit our teeth.

I started this thread as a self-test for the fallen nature. The results are useful only when people are honest with themselves. For example:

If you were a creator, and by means of precognition knew in advance that the human life you were thinking about bringing into existence would one day require you to exterminate almost the entire batch in a deluge-- men, women, underage children, infants, handicapped folk, and senior citizens (not to mention birds, bugs, and beasts) --would you willfully and deliberately go ahead and bring all that life into existence anyway knowing full well in advance that your own hand would eventually be killing them by means of a massive die-off?

In my honest opinion (I assume we're all being honest here) no reasonable person, with normal sensitivities, would ever knowingly jeopardize so much life just so they could have their very own sandbox to play in.

• Rev 4:11 . . O Lord our God . . you created everything, and it is for your pleasure that they exist and were created.

My opinion insinuates that the creator is an unreasonable person whose sensitivities fall in the abnormal range. What does my opinion say about me? Well; obviously it says that I test positive for the fallen nature.

• Rom 8:7 . .The sinful mind is hostile to God.

FAQ: I am sometimes secretly offended, even disgusted, by the way God goes about His business. Does that mean there is no hope for me?

A: Heb 9:1-14 teaches that Christ's blood serves to sanitize our minds; and we only have to undergo that form of sanitation just once and it's good for all time; we never have to repeat the process.

FAQ: Christ's blood can stop my mind from thinking bad thoughts about God?

A: No, you can expect that those kinds of thoughts will continue to be a nuisance; but they will never again be a barrier between you and God. Christ will make sure of that. The remainder of the ninth chapter of Hebrews bears that out.

FAQ: So, how do I go about obtaining this mental sanitation about which you speak?

A: That's easy. Find yourself a place and simply speak up, admitting to God that you have a sinful mind and would like to take advantage of His son's blood to sanitize it. It sometimes helps to cover your face with your hands to give you a sense of privacy between you and God. I pray like that all the time; it works for me.
_

 

[com7fy8]

God knows what is really true about Himself.

It says His ways are "past finding out," in Romans 11:33.

He can have me thinking what He wants me to think; so I trust Him for His correction > Hebrews 12:4-14.

And if the Bible is telling us the truth, He has done things for the overall good. And one thing I get is that the judgments and human failure and tragedies of early scripture are an object lesson of how things can go, without Jesus. The New Covenant shows how well things can go because of Jesus dying for us and rising on the third day and now Jesus is ruling as Lord of all

And every scripture, then, can somehow help me to find out how to love and how to see things for loving.

But trust Him for the good He wants you to get out of something, plus test every thing in this life, for how God our Creator can create His loving with you in any situation, including after we have failed.

 

[disciple Clint]

.
The human mind consists of consciousness and sub-consciousness. The sub area is where we our minds store suppressed thoughts, feelings, and desires; in other words: things we'd just as soon forget rather than think about.

For example: most Christians cannot admit, even to themselves, their honest opinions about God because those opinions are not only unacceptable, but also unthinkable. Those thoughts and feelings about God are so disturbing that sometimes when one leaks out for us to contemplate, it actually makes us wince, possibly even shudder; and sometimes even momentarily close our eyes and grit our teeth.

I started this thread as a self-test for the fallen nature. The results are useful only when people are honest with themselves. For example:

If you were a creator, and by means of precognition knew in advance that the human life you were thinking about bringing into existence would one day require you to exterminate almost the entire batch in a deluge-- men, women, underage children, infants, handicapped folk, and senior citizens (not to mention birds, bugs, and beasts) --would you willfully and deliberately go ahead and bring all that life into existence anyway knowing full well in advance that your own hand would eventually be killing them by means of a massive die-off?

In my honest opinion (I assume we're all being honest here) no reasonable person, with normal sensitivities, would ever knowingly jeopardize so much life just so they could have their very own sandbox to play in.

• Rev 4:11 . . O Lord our God . . you created everything, and it is for your pleasure that they exist and were created.

My opinion insinuates that the creator is an unreasonable person whose sensitivities fall in the abnormal range. What does my opinion say about me? Well; obviously it says that I test positive for the fallen nature.

• Rom 8:7 . .The sinful mind is hostile to God.

FAQ: I am sometimes secretly offended, even disgusted, by the way God goes about His business. Does that mean there is no hope for me?

A: Heb 9:1-14 teaches that Christ's blood serves to sanitize our minds; and we only have to undergo that form of sanitation just once and it's good for all time; we never have to repeat the process.

FAQ: Christ's blood can stop my mind from thinking bad thoughts about God?

A: No, you can expect that those kinds of thoughts will continue to be a nuisance; but they will never again be a barrier between you and God. Christ will make sure of that. The remainder of the ninth chapter of Hebrews bears that out.

FAQ: So, how do I go about obtaining this mental sanitation about which you speak?

A: That's easy. Find yourself a place and simply speak up, admitting to God that you have a sinful mind and would like to take advantage of His son's blood to sanitize it. It sometimes helps to cover your face with your hands to give you a sense of privacy between you and God. I pray like that all the time; it works for me.
_

If you were a creator, and by means of precognition knew in advance that the human life you were thinking about bringing into existence would one day require you to exterminate almost the entire batch

In the O.T. we see several examples of God exercising utilitarianism to facilitate the implementation of placing His chosen people in the promised land. It is not unjust for God to take a life to accomplish a greater good.

 

[WebersHome]

.

And if the Bible is telling us the truth, He has done things for the overall good.

Bringing thousands, even multiplied millions, of people into existence so they could lose their lives in order to achieve one's own personal ambition isn't Christian, it's Machiavellian.

• Phil 2:4 . . Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

Christ expressly forbids proceeding with your ideas before pondering all the possible ramifications of your actions first.

Stepping on people's toes, walking over people's bones, and/or thwarting their ideas so that yours prevail, fails to satisfy the law of Christ; which requires believers to love their fellow believers as Christ loves them (John 15:12). It also fails to satisfy the Golden Rule which says: So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you. (Matt 7:12).

It is an irrefutable fact, easily derived from Biblical data, that before God brought human life into existence, He already knew in advance, by means of precognition, that He would be exterminating much of it in a deluge: and also knew in advance that numbers of His creations would end up suffering in Hell, plus boiled to death in a lake of brimstone; yet He went ahead and created them anyway.

Christians have a really bad habit of trying to get around unpleasant data by means of clever semantics and spiritual double speak instead of coming to grips with certain horrible realities.

There's a place in the Old Testament where a prophet was required to eat a scroll which he said was sweet in his mouth, but sour in his tummy. Well, this is like that; only nowadays we call it a bitter pill, i.e. the Christian God is a tyrannical despot far more dangerous than North Korea's Kim Jong-un.
_

 

[com7fy8]

That is true for what a Christian is not to do.

But God can give life and then remove someone from this world. And then He can do what is right with that person.

He did not only know, in advance, but He is in control.

There are vessels for honor and for dishonor > Romans 9:21 . . . vessels for love, yes, but there also is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" > Ephesians 2:2. He has vessels for carrying the horrible spirit of evil to where it belongs. And yes a number of humans are even insisting on having in themselves the spirit of unforgiveness and making themselves the judge of God.

Their spirit can't just be allowed to be anywhere and everywhere; so God has it organized in vessels of dishonor.

 

[SunAndRain]

A thought.

Even for people who don’t believe in a Christian God or a god at all, the world can seem (a) horribly unfair and untrustworthy OR (b) full of the beauty and mystery of natural processes (of which humans and unfairness are a part).

Some people develop trust in something larger even though reality from day one includes pain, suffering, and unfairness. Christian or non-Christian, perhaps these people aren’t lying to themselves but have come to a point of view that’s trusting of what they can’t understand.

 

[WebersHome]

.
Christians are typically very uncomfortable with passages in the Bible that make God look cruel, unfair, and unloving. Much of the time when I attempt to discuss those kinds of passages with them they circle the apologetic wagons and begin shooting Bible verses at me like rifle slugs.

The Bible says that Christians are supposed to be reasonable, but I find that many of them are defensive, emotional, reactive, and thoroughly incapable of honest introspection.
_

 

[SunAndRain]

.
Christians are typically very uncomfortable with passages in the Bible that make God look cruel, unfair, and unloving. Much of the time when I attempt to discuss those kinds of passages with them they circle the apologetic wagons and begin shooting Bible verses at me like rifle slugs.

The Bible says that Christians are supposed to be reasonable, but I find that many of them are defensive, emotional, reactive, and thoroughly incapable of honest introspection.
_

I didn’t mean to say that trusting God and being okay with what He does or trusting “something larger” and being okay with its workings are common reactions to unfairness and pain, just that they do happen in a subset of people.

I like that you didn’t just state a problem but also proposed a solution:

Find yourself a place and simply speak up, admitting to God that you have a sinful mind and would like to take advantage of His son's blood to sanitize it. It sometimes helps to cover your face with your hands to give you a sense of privacy between you and God. I pray like that all the time; it works for me.

 

[WebersHome]

.
Regarding the forbidden fruit incident depicted in the 3rd chapter of the book of Genesis:

• Rom 5:12 . .When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.

FAQ: How is it fair to charge the entire human race with the sin of one man?

A: I don't know.

FAQ: Why do I have to die for something I didn't do?

A: I don't know.

FAQ: I was made a sinner before I was even born?

A: Yes.

REACTION: That makes me angry!

RESPONSE: You should be angry, and if you're not, then I really have to question your moral values, i.e. your sense of justice, and your perception of right and wrong.

REACTION: Romans 5:12 is a mistake. According to Ezek 18:20, children are not responsible for their father's sins.

RESPONSE: According to Deut 5:2-4 and Gal 3:17, the laws of God are not retroactive, i.e. Ezek 18:20 was enacted too late to have any say in Adam's life.

FAQ: Does my anger in this matter mean that I test positive for the fallen nature?

A: You test positive.

• Rom 8:7 . .The sinful mind is hostile to God.
_

 

[disciple Clint]

.
Regarding the forbidden fruit incident depicted in the 3rd chapter of the book of Genesis:

• Rom 5:12 . .When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.

FAQ: How is it fair to charge the entire human race with the sin of one man?

A: I don't know.

FAQ: Why do I have to die for something I didn't do?

A: I don't know.

FAQ: I was made a sinner before I was even born?

A: Yes.

REACTION: That makes me angry!

RESPONSE: You should be angry, and if you're not, then I really have to question your moral values, i.e. your sense of justice, and your perception of right and wrong.

REACTION: Romans 5:12 is a mistake. According to Ezek 18:20, children are not responsible for their father's sins.

RESPONSE: According to Deut 5:2-4 and Gal 3:17, the laws of God are not retroactive, i.e. Ezek 18:20 was enacted too late to have any say in Adam's life.

FAQ: Does my anger in this matter mean that I test positive for the fallen nature?

A: You test positive.

• Rom 8:7 . .The sinful mind is hostile to God.
_

While the first Adam acted for all mankind so the 2nd Adam (Jesus) also acted for all mankind.

 

[WebersHome]

.

While the first Adam acted for all mankind

It doesn't bother you that God placed your life, and the lives of your loved ones, in jeopardy for something you and yours didn't do?

so the 2nd Adam (Jesus) also acted for all mankind.

There's a significant element of difference between the actions of those two men. Everyone gets slammed with the consequences related to Adam's act; whereas the blessings related to Jesus' act are limited to the few that are chosen from among the many that are called.

The above makes no sense to a reasonable person because if Christ died for everybody, then why isn't everybody chosen? And if it's God's will that everybody be saved; then why aren't they?

Christians have invented a variety of canned apologies with which to respond to those kinds of questions, while in the backs of their minds struggling with the lunacy of it all.
_

 

[aiki]

The human mind consists of consciousness and sub-consciousness. The sub area is where we our minds store suppressed thoughts, feelings, and desires; in other words: things we'd just as soon forget rather than think about.

For example: most Christians cannot admit, even to themselves, their honest opinions about God because those opinions are not only unacceptable, but also unthinkable. Those thoughts and feelings about God are so disturbing that sometimes when one leaks out for us to contemplate, it actually makes us wince, possibly even shudder; and sometimes even momentarily close our eyes and grit our teeth.

Well, unless you know personally "most Christians" - and there are many millions of them - well enough to say what their thought-life is like, you can't really offer your conjecture here. You can talk, of course, about your state of mind, about what happens in your thinking (which is what you're actually doing in the above quotation, I think) but I don't see how you can speak with any confidence about the thought-lives of millions of other Christians. I don't, for instance, have anything like what you describe above going on in my mind about God. I don't harbor secret vile thoughts about my Creator. If this is true of me, it is quite possible other believers don't hold subconsciously evil thoughts about Him, too.

I started this thread as a self-test for the fallen nature. The results are useful only when people are honest with themselves.

Isn't this like the fellow who asks his friend, "So, have you stopped beating your wife?"? In order to answer the question as it has been asked, the friend must grant his questioner's assumption that he has, in fact, been beating his wife. But, if he hasn't been beating his wife? How should he answer?

If you were a creator, and by means of precognition knew in advance that the human life you were thinking about bringing into existence would one day require you to exterminate almost the entire batch in a deluge-- men, women, underage children, infants, handicapped folk, and senior citizens (not to mention birds, bugs, and beasts) --would you willfully and deliberately go ahead and bring all that life into existence anyway knowing full well in advance that your own hand would eventually be killing them by means of a massive die-off?

The big problem with doing this thought experiment is that you don't have a divine frame of reference from which to do it. You aren't God and have no idea what it is like to create and sustain the entire universe, to be omniscient and omnipresent, and to be the Final Authority over all you've made. You have no idea what it is to be perfectly holy, to be light in which no darkness has ever existed. And so on. You are finite, sinful, weak and ignorant. But you think you can stand in God's shoes and assess His choices?

In my honest opinion (I assume we're all being honest here) no reasonable person, with normal sensitivities, would ever knowingly jeopardize so much life just so they could have their very own sandbox to play in.

Which is exactly the conclusion many come to when they try to understand God from a non-God perspective. The last few chapters of Job are a good antidote to this sort of thing.

My opinion insinuates that the creator is an unreasonable person whose sensitivities fall in the abnormal range. What does my opinion say about me? Well; obviously it says that I test positive for the fallen nature.

It seems to me it also illustrates how limited you are and how impossible it is, then, to assess God properly.

FAQ: I am sometimes secretly offended, even disgusted, by the way God goes about His business. Does that mean there is no hope for me?

A: Heb 9:1-14 teaches that Christ's blood serves to sanitize our minds; and we only have to undergo that form of sanitation just once and it's good for all time; we never have to repeat the process.

Hmmm...there is positional sanctification and there is sanctification in one's daily condition; the former is full, and perfect, and spiritual, but the latter is being worked out day-by-day in the life of every born-again child of God. The sanctification of one's mind and life is a progressive thing, expanding and deepening as the days pass and one's spiritual understanding increases.

Hebrews 10:14
14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

1 Peter 1:1-2
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen
2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

2 Corinthians 7:1
1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

FAQ: Christ's blood can stop my mind from thinking bad thoughts about God?

A: No, you can expect that those kinds of thoughts will continue to be a nuisance; but they will never again be a barrier between you and God. Christ will make sure of that. The remainder of the ninth chapter of Hebrews bears that out.

We are told in Scripture to take captive every thought, bringing them all into obedience to Christ. (2 Corinthians 10:3-5) Those "nuisance" thoughts will come, yes, but we are not simply to tolerate them but actively reject them, taking them captive to the truth and will of Christ. We are also told in God's word to fix our minds upon very particular things, most importantly upon Christ. (2 Corinthians 3:18; Hebrews 12:2-3; Philippians 4:8; Psalms 1) No Christian can be passive about their thought-life but must consciously and persistently submit their thinking to God, focusing upon what God has commanded should occupy their mind.

FAQ: So, how do I go about obtaining this mental sanitation about which you speak?

A: That's easy. Find yourself a place and simply speak up, admitting to God that you have a sinful mind and would like to take advantage of His son's blood to sanitize it. It sometimes helps to cover your face with your hands to give you a sense of privacy between you and God. I pray like that all the time; it works for me.

Prayer is good. Very important. But a transformed, a sanctified mind, is not obtained solely by prayer.

Romans 12:2
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Colossians 3:9-10
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Ephesians 5:25-27
25 .... just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

John 15:3
3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

Psalm 119:9
9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to your word.

 

[disciple Clint]

.


It doesn't bother you that God placed your life, and the lives of your loved ones, in jeopardy for something you and yours didn't do?




There's a significant element of difference between the actions of those two men. Everyone gets slammed with the consequences related to Adam's act; whereas the blessings related to Jesus' act are limited to the few that are chosen from among the many that are called.

The above makes no sense to a reasonable person because if Christ died for everybody, then why isn't everybody chosen? And if it's God's will that everybody be saved; then why aren't they?

Christians have invented a variety of canned apologies with which to respond to those kinds of questions, while in the backs of their minds struggling with the lunacy of it all.
_

It is the view of many Christians including Catholics that everyone has been chosen, you need to take up the Calvinist view with the Calvinists. Six evidences that God wants people to be saved - The Christian Index

 

[WebersHome]

.

you need to take up the Calvinist view with the Calvinists.

I didn't start this thread to discuss the pluses and minuses of various belief systems, rather to discuss elements of the so-called fallen nature.

Most Christians will readily admit to the universality of the fallen nature; but apparently believe themselves immune to its effects. But John pointed out in his first epistle that if Christians say they have no sin, it means they are failing to be totally honest about themselves, viz: their introspection is shaded.

I'm convinced there is a day coming when I will be called on the carpet to answer for myself. That is not the time for dissembling, i.e. to cover up one's true feelings with pious platitudes and apologetic rhetoric. I want to be 100% transparent if perchance Christ asks me some very personal, penetrating questions; for example:

How I really felt about God knowing ahead of time, even before creating human life, that one day He would be destroying most of it in a deluge; not to mention confining much of it in Hell and later on executing them via a mode of death akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron. By means of precognition, the creator saw all that coming yet went ahead and created human life anyway. How did I really feel about that?

How I really felt about being forced to get old and die due to one man's sin?

How I really felt about being made a sinner due to one man's sin?

How I really felt about God not stepping in to stop the Serpent from tempting Eve?

When I gave some serious thought to how God goes about His business, did I come to the conclusion that some of His ways are neither reasonable nor sane?

I've no doubt that a pretty fair number of Christians are going to choke when they're required to give truly honest answers to those kinds of questions. Some are very good at snowing each other, but their snow jobs won't succeed with Jesus because he won't be so much interested in what they knew about certain things, rather, how they felt about certain things. The poor creatures are totally unprepared for the psychological tsunami headed straight towards them.

• Rev 1:12-14 . . I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. . . . his eyes were as a flame of fire.
_

 

[disciple Clint]

.


I didn't start this thread to discuss the pluses and minuses of various belief systems, rather to discuss elements of the so-called fallen nature.

Most Christians will readily admit to the universality of the fallen nature; but apparently believe themselves immune to its effects. But John pointed out in his first epistle that if Christians say they have no sin, it means they are failing to be totally honest about themselves, viz: their introspection is shaded.

I'm convinced there is a day coming when I will be called on the carpet to answer for myself. That is not the time for dissembling, i.e. to cover up one's true feelings with pious platitudes and apologetic rhetoric. I want to be 100% transparent if perchance Christ asks me some very personal, penetrating questions; for example:

How I really felt about God knowing ahead of time, even before creating human life, that one day He would be destroying most of it in a deluge; not to mention confining much of it in Hell and later on executing them via a mode of death akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron. By means of precognition, the creator saw all that coming yet went ahead and created human life anyway. How did I really feel about that?

How I really felt about being forced to get old and die due to one man's sin?

How I really felt about being made a sinner due to one man's sin?

How I really felt about God not stepping in to stop the Serpent from tempting Eve?

When I gave some serious thought to how God goes about His business, did I come to the conclusion that some of His ways are neither reasonable nor sane?

I've no doubt that a pretty fair number of Christians are going to choke when they're required to give truly honest answers to those kinds of questions. Some are very good at snowing each other, but their snow jobs won't succeed with Jesus because he won't be so much interested in what they knew about certain things, rather, how they felt about certain things. The poor creatures are totally unprepared for the psychological tsunami headed straight towards them.

• Rev 1:12-14 . . I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. . . . his eyes were as a flame of fire.
_

Any one who knows the character of God will have no problem at all answering the questions and objections you have listed. I am return to you post and provide some answers when I have a little more time if others have not answered them by then.

 

[WebersHome]

.

I am return to you post and provide some answers when I have a little more time

I have no interest in the results of your self evaluation; and in point of fact do not trust you to be honest; not only with me, but not even with you while you're in a fallen condition.

• Jer 17:9 . .The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Some day we're all going to be handed a reliable evaluation of ourselves.

• Jer 17:10 . . I the Lord search the heart and examine the mind

• Rom 2:16 . . God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ
_