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"fallen asleep" "we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord"

Discussion in 'Christian Scriptures' started by JesusYeshuaisLord, Dec 19, 2018.

  1. JesusYeshuaisLord

    JesusYeshuaisLord Member

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    EDIT: Does what John Piper says in the link below makes sense or is he adding his interpretation on top of what Paul is actually saying? Link:
    Will We Meet Jesus as Soon as We Die?

    I still haven't really analysed it but I only read the passage of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

    What I perceive is:
    - Verse 14: Those who have fallen asleep are dead and will rise again like Christ did
    - Verse 15: Those who are left meaning still alive when Jesus comes back, will not be taken up before the dead are resurrected.

    If I read the passage by itself, this is what the text implies, is it not?

    Thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
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  2. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    I think it is better to meet Jesus TODAY (before dying), while there is time TODAY,
    if God Permits.

    Do as He says, and live.
     
  3. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    The passage seems pretty clear to me. I don't know what you find doesn't make sense. It places the Rapture after the resurrection of the righteous, the resurrection occurring when Christ returns.
     
  4. Seadish

    Seadish Member

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    As much as I'd like to think that we go straight to Jesus when we die, I have come to believe that we don't, we sleep until it is time
     
  5. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 - I love this passage and quote it often and I call it the "nutshell" passage. Following is a list of verses supporting you can check out that supports all are asleep in the grave until the return of Jesus (and I do believe this and have no doubts).

    State of the Dead

    Psalm 90:3-6

    You turn man back into dust And say, "Return, O children of men." For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night. You have swept them away like a flood, they fall asleep; In the morning they are like grass which sprouts anew.

    Job 7:21

    "Why then do You not pardon my transgression And take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

    Job 14:10-12

    "But man dies and lies prostrate Man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dried up, So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

    Psalm 13:3

    Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

    Daniel 12:2

    "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

    Matthew 9:24

    He (Jesus) said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.

    Mark 5:39

    And entering in, He said to them, "Why make a commotion and weep? The child has not died, but is asleep."

    Luke 8:52-53

    Now they were all weeping and lamenting for her; but He said, "Stop weeping, for she has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him, knowing that she had died.

    1 Kings 2:10

    Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.

    Deuteronomy 31:16

    The LORD said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.

    2 Samuel 7:12

    "When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom.

    1 Kings 11:43

    And Solomon slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of his father David, and his son Rehoboam reigned in his place.

    1 Kings 14:20

    The time that Jeroboam reigned was twenty-two years; and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his place.

    1 Kings 16:6

    And Baasha slept with his fathers and was buried in Tirzah, and Elah his son became king in his place.

    1 Kings 22:50

    And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers and was buried with his fathers in the city of his father David, and Jehoram his son became king in his place.

    2 Kings 14:16

    So Jehoash slept with his fathers and was buried in Samaria with the kings of Israel; and Jeroboam his son became king in his place.

    2 Kings 15:7

    And Azariah slept with his fathers, and they buried him with his fathers in the city of David, and Jotham his son became king in his place.

    2 Kings 16:20

    So Ahaz slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David; and his son Hezekiah reigned in his place.

    2 Kings 20:21

    So Hezekiah slept with his fathers, and Manasseh his son became king in his place.

    2 Kings 21:18

    And Manasseh slept with his fathers and was buried in the garden of his own house, in the garden of Uzza, and Amon his son became king in his place.

    Revelation 14:13

    And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."


    John 11:11-14

    This He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep." The disciples then said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover." Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.

    Acts 7:60

    Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.

    1 Corinthians 15:6

    After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;

    John 5:28-29

    "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

    Job 14:13-15

    "Oh that You would hide me in Sheol (the grave), That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You, That You would set a limit for me and remember me! "If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my struggle I will wait Until my change comes. "You will call, and I will answer You; You will long for the work of Your hands.

    Psalm 17:15

    As for me, I shall behold Your face in righteousness; I will be satisfied with Your likeness when I awake.

    Isaiah 26:19

    Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.

    1 Corinthians 15:20

    But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

    But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

    Jeremiah 51:57

    "I will make her princes and her wise men drunk, Her governors, her prefects and her mighty men, That they may sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake up," Declares the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.


    Psalm 7:3-5

    O LORD my God, if I have done this, If there is injustice in my hands, If I have rewarded evil to my friend, Or have plundered him who without cause was my adversary, Let the enemy pursue my soul and overtake it; And let him trample my life down to the ground And lay my glory in the dust. Selah.

    Psalm 76:5

    The stouthearted were plundered, They sank into sleep; And none of the warriors could use his hands.

    Jeremiah 51:39

    "When they become heated up, I will serve them their banquet And make them drunk, that they may become jubilant And may sleep a perpetual sleep And not wake up," declares the LORD.

    God Bless.
     
  6. JesusYeshuaisLord

    JesusYeshuaisLord Member

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    Oh I meant that I don't fully understand John Piper's explanation on here: Will We Meet Jesus as Soon as We Die?
     
  7. JesusYeshuaisLord

    JesusYeshuaisLord Member

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    Thanks for the verses :) I shall definitely study more on those :D So far, I probably understand it as you do, though I'd probably lean towards the idea that body and soul cannot 'live' separately, meaning that they only both exist or don't (then again, 'exist' in the sense that we understand it, with our limited human experience). I base that on Genesis which says that God breathed into Man and he became a living being. If God takes this breath out then we cease to exist in this world (I specifically use 'this world' because it is still not clear that there can be a 'human' existence outside the body). That is in that way that I understand the passages that says that the soul/spirit goes back to God.

    Some would argue that it is only the body which is asleep and would also quote verses to prove it.

    Maybe it is one of those matters that are supposed to be a mystery? Which I think is what Paul is saying there in 2 corinthians 12:2,3 "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )"
    Some would quote this verse to mean that it is proof that the soul can exist/be conscious outside of the body. Though if we are honest we could just say that it might be possible but Paul doesn't actually knows it? Which is why he says God knoweth.

    Is it actually vital to have an absolute knowledge of these things? We assume that there is only a conscious and unconscious state, what if there is a third option to which God didn't want to be specific about? Some things are meant to be mysteries and we do only "see through a glass darkly".
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
  8. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Is it actually vital to have an absolute knowledge of these things?
    "vital" - could be depends on one considers vital ... but state of the dead plays a part in other things ... if one believes all are asleep in the grave, unconscious state, then: a few I can think of ...

    they know the dead can not be contacted and will not seek out spiritual advisors claiming they can contact the dead
    they won't believe in familiar spirits .. if one should appear they know they are demonic in nature and not really their loved one(s)
    It dismisses various multiple/various secret rapture theories ... ( that is there is 1 "rapture" .... 1st resurrection (for the saved)
    the book of Revelation starts making more sense as well.
    the immortality factor .. if one believes any conscience part of them goes somewhere, they are believing themselves to be immortal and the bible is clear ... nobody receives immorality until the return of Jesus. ie satan to Eve .... "you surely will not die" (same lie)
    dismisses the burn in hell for eternity teaching, because again that belief is again is putting forth immortality ... not a happy immortality ... but immortality none the less. No ... in the very end all the unsaved, satan and his minions will be totally destroyed.
    God is not a torturer.

    and the Lord knows we have questions about these and many things and provides the info. we need to know .... not all we would like to know.

    We assume that there is only a conscious and unconscious state, what if there is a third option to which God didn't want to be specific about?

    I don't believe there is a 3rd option. I do not find one biblically and that's what I go by. One does not know where they are going unless one knows where they came from --- ie dust to dust (we were created from dust and will return to dust) in our current human form. When the Lord comes back then he gives us a new body and immortality living with Him in a perfect world ... forever.
    ... Amen!

    So ... vital? They are to me. I am so glad the Lord helped me through His word to know these truths. I used to believe otherwise by the way, until I did diligent study (such as yourself) on my own and and I certainly continue to do so.

    So it's wonderful you are digging into His Word yourself. May He Bless you richly through it.

    God Bless.
     
  9. DaDad

    DaDad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Ummmmmm, I think you may have mis-stated the facts. First the DEAD are raised, then they which are alive and remain shall be caught up:

    As such Rev. 20 outlines that only those who have been martyred join Jesus when he returns to reign for HIS Millennial Kingdom
    And of course the DEAD aren't raised until the thousand years are ended, upon which time those who remain on earth must ascend (rapture) to the New Jerusalem for eternity.

    And please don't confuse text proximity with chronological proximity. For example, Trump was born in NYC and became President. -- "WHAT" you say? HE BECAME PRESIDENT AS A CHILD?!? -- No, and so too some verses which depict the "rapture".

    But that's only what Scripture says. -- The "church" has a different agenda, and perhaps we should believe them!

    Thanks,
    DaDad
     
  10. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's correct although most do not realize that the dead in Christ are in heaven and resurrect there and then Christ will bring them with him to the clouds where they meet the raptured saints. The dead in Christ do not go back to their old bodies like Christ did and I see no scripture saying the dead bodies go to heaven either.

    2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
    2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

    The new resurrected body is from heaven and is in heaven! Here Paul uses an analogy of a building, house and tabernacle to represent a physical body. One of these is an "earthly house" meaning the mortal flesh body we are born into and then a heavenly house which is in heaven that represents the new immortal body. This speaks of when a saved humans body dies (dissolved) that there is another body in heaven waiting for them and the time of Resurrection. There is nothing in the passage about the person's spirit returning to their dissolved/dead body and it being brought back to life. Paul speaks of a different body that already exists in heaven.


    2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
    2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

    Paul writes that he desires to be clothed with the house from Heaven and says it is eternal in Heaven. That's the resurrected body and it is from heaven not from the Earth nor from an Earthly grave.


    1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

    Again, something awaits us in heaven. Is it not the new glorified body given in a heavenly resurrection?


    If scripture interprets scripture then I submit:

    Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

    Though Jesus was a carpenter's son, I do not believe he is literally speaking of building a house in heaven for us but this being a reference to what 2 Corinthians 5:1 touches upon, a new body in heaven.
     
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