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Fall of man - did it really happen?

afton7

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I've been struggling with this question for a while and did not know who to ask, hopefully
I can learn more from this forum.

Jesus died on the cross to redeem us from our sin.
There's a lot of proof about Jesus existence around 2000 years ago.

Our sin is because Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit.
But did this event really happen?
Was there an actual Adam and Eve who walked on this earth?

If they did exist, where is the proof?
 

dysert

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I've been struggling with this question for a while and did not know who to ask, hopefully
I can learn more from this forum.

Jesus died on the cross to redeem us from our sin.
There's a lot of proof about Jesus existence around 2000 years ago.

Our sin is because Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit.
But did this event really happen?
Was there an actual Adam and Eve who walked on this earth?

If they did exist, where is the proof?
Although I do believe in a literal Adam and Eve, I wouldn't get so hung up on it if I were you. We are capable of sinning just fine without their influence. Of course sin has been around since almost Day One. Consider how messed up the world has been from the beginning.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I've been struggling with this question for a while and did not know who to ask, hopefully
I can learn more from this forum.

Jesus died on the cross to redeem us from our sin.
There's a lot of proof about Jesus existence around 2000 years ago.

Our sin is because Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit.
But did this event really happen?
Was there an actual Adam and Eve who walked on this earth?

If they did exist, where is the proof?

There are different opinions on this topic in Christianity, here are probably the three most common:

1) There was a literal Adam and Eve as described in Genesis.
2) There was not a literal Adam and Eve as described in Genesis.
3) There was an Adam and Eve, but not necessarily as literally described in Genesis.

It largely depends on how literally the early chapters of Genesis are read, and Christian interpretation of these texts have, historically, been diverse (there has always been room in Christianity for different interpretations here, going back to the earliest centuries of our faith).

The first two views are fairly self-explanatory, but the third may need clarification. The third position is that Adam and Eve, even if that wasn't their actual names, are the first human beings to bear God's image, and therefore the first humans to be morally culpable, and they are ancestral to us all. They may not have been the first humans (strictly speaking) or the first hominids; but the first people with the capacity of higher reasoning, having a rational soul, and therefore able to have a relationship with the Creator and also be morally culpable.

In any case, all Christians recognize the Fall as real and something serious; some understand it literally as described in the third chapter of Genesis where Eve is tempted by a talking snake to consume fruit from a literal tree, and Adam likewise eats the fruit after his wife gives him some. Though other Christians understand these things less literally, the Church Father Origen for example argued that we shouldn't perceive the cause of our fall being the physical act of masticating a piece of literal fruit. But there is a common recognition that:

1) There was a primal, ancestral, or original sin; an act of human disobedience and hubris which fundamentally changed our relationship with God, with other people, and with the rest of creation; whereby sin and death are the ruling principles of human life in this world which is not as it ought to be.

2) That in some way this first sin has drastically affected not just human beings, but all of creation. The Western, Augustinian view of Original Sin involves human nature itself having been negatively effected by the Fall, and as such human beings inherit the fallen human nature of Adam; inheriting his original sin and guilt in the form of concupiscence--selfish, wayward desire out from which actual sin springs. The Eastern, Orthodox view of Ancestral Sin is that the first sin caused a rift in creation, creating an environment in which creatures are out of harmony with God, and from which individual sin becomes inevitable as a consequence.

3) It has always been God's purpose to bring all of creation to its intended purpose, and the Fall doesn't change that. God has not abandoned His creation, but will redeem, restore, heal, and ultimately bring it to the glorious purpose He intended from the beginning. He does this through Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection, and, ultimately, Christ's glorious return, the resurrection of all the dead, the renewal of all creation, and the everlasting life in the Age to Come.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Not me

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As far as the “fall of man, did it actually happen?” It seems to me that the answer to that question is. The answer to another question; Why do you always have to teach a child to behave and never to misbehave. Why does the misbehavior come naturally? It seems to me, that the answer to that question would be the answer to question “whether the fall actually did happen”

Much love in Christ, Not me
 
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mukk_in

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I've been struggling with this question for a while and did not know who to ask, hopefully
I can learn more from this forum.

Jesus died on the cross to redeem us from our sin.
There's a lot of proof about Jesus existence around 2000 years ago.

Our sin is because Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit.
But did this event really happen?
Was there an actual Adam and Eve who walked on this earth?

If they did exist, where is the proof?
The proof is Jesus Himself :).
 
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Azeke

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The fall is likened to seed falling to the ground to be regenerated after its kind and produce fruit, is that a bad thing? We are the off spring of Spirit/Christ, that is asleep in every Soul/Seed until the time of its awaking from dormancy in cold darkness to the warmth of light that starts our divine awakening from darkness into light, that miracle is told in multiple motifs of duplicity hidden in the scriptural narrative, we are not sent to be punished for some fall told in a parabolic adventure set up for teaching divine Children about the power of thought to create good and bad so we are not going to be let lose to operate that power until we learn how to control it.

Unconditional/Perfected Love is the goal of this Divine University. Jesus is a pattern of us from dust to stars.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I've been struggling with this question for a while and did not know who to ask, hopefully
I can learn more from this forum.

Jesus died on the cross to redeem us from our sin.
There's a lot of proof about Jesus existence around 2000 years ago.

Our sin is because Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit.
But did this event really happen?
Was there an actual Adam and Eve who walked on this earth?

If they did exist, where is the proof?

Hi Afton7.

My answer to your question is: I don't (by necessity) think Adam and Eve need to be thought of as real, historical people of the past. Rather, I have a more philosophical, extrabiblical understanding of the account of Adam and Eve, and rather than seeing the Garden of Eden Story as literal history, I take it as a follow up to the Cosmogonic Account of Creation. This means that I see it as representing a reconfigured, inverse arrangement of theological themes serving as a polemic over and against the previous creation myths from the surrounding cultures of the time in which Genesis, or pieces of it, were composed and/or brought together.

So, we "are" fallen in our nature, and some of the blame lies within, and, among humanity. There is something about us spiritually--psychologically and socially--that does not work the way it should, and there are many ways in which we do not live in accord with God's Will, and it is this general human trend that I think is represented in a metaphorical form in the Garden of Eden story.

(If you'd like some sources that expand on this, let me know and I'll be glad to list some for you to read.) :cool:
 
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JackRT

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I do not read the Genesis myth as a fall from an original state of perfection into sin and death. The first couple were completely innocent and naive creatures. They were certainly capable of making a mistake but, without knowing good from evil, they lacked even the ability to sin. That ability came only with them eating of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". To me the story is a "coming of age story". Our mythical first couple graduated from animal status into to fully self aware human beings capable of making moral judgements. This is not an Original Sin story but rather an Original Blessing story that should be celebrated. We are not a people fallen from an original state of perfection into sin and death. What we are is a people that is still evolving. We are no longer "just animals" but something more.

Why the expulsion from Eden? In the mythology, I believe it to be symbolic that mankind was no longer a naïve creature living in moral ignorance but had become real men and women living in a real world where there was real good and evil.

In the words of John Spong: "Every living thing, plant and animal is programmed to survive. What is true of all these living things is also true of human life. The only difference is that we human beings are self-conscious, while plants and animals are not. If survival is our highest goal, self-centeredness is inevitable and thus this quality becomes a constant part of the human experience. Traditionally, the church has called this "original sin" and has explained it with the myth of the fall. That was simply wrong. Survival is a quality found in life itself. There was no fall. Self-centered, survival driven, self-conscious creatures is simply who we are. There is thus no such thing as "original sin" from which we need to be rescued by a divine invader. So much of traditional Christianity assumes this false premise."
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I do not read the Genesis myth as a fall from an original state of perfection into sin and death. The first couple were completely innocent and naive creatures. They were certainly capable of making a mistake but, without knowing good from evil, they lacked even the ability to sin. That ability came only with them eating of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". To me the story is a "coming of age story". Our mythical first couple graduated from animal status into to fully self aware human beings capable of making moral judgements. This is not an Original Sin story but rather an Original Blessing story that should be celebrated. We are not a people fallen from an original state of perfection into sin and death. What we are is a people that is still evolving. We are no longer "just animals" but something more.

Why the expulsion from Eden? In the mythology, I believe it to be symbolic that mankind was no longer a naïve creature living in moral ignorance but had become real men and women living in a real world where there was real good and evil.

In the words of John Spong: "Every living thing, plant and animal is programmed to survive. What is true of all these living things is also true of human life. The only difference is that we human beings are self-conscious, while plants and animals are not. If survival is our highest goal, self-centeredness is inevitable and thus this quality becomes a constant part of the human experience. Traditionally, the church has called this "original sin" and has explained it with the myth of the fall. That was simply wrong. Survival is a quality found in life itself. There was no fall. Self-centered, survival driven, self-conscious creatures is simply who we are. There is thus no such thing as "original sin" from which we need to be rescued by a divine invader. So much of traditional Christianity assumes this false premise."

I hate to be an upstart, but I think that you, on the one hand, and St. Augustine on the other, are both ... less than accurate. So, I'll see your John Spong, and raise you a Conrad Hyers, Denis O. Lamoureux, and a J. Richard Middleton. :p
 
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food4thought

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I think we need to be careful when we start spiritualizing the fall, because the New Testament (NT) affirms the story. Paul wrote in Romans:

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
(Romans 5:12-14 NASB)

Therefore we know that Adam sinned in some way, causing him to die. I believe this death to be two-fold: spiritually (separation from God) and, eventually, physically (separation of the soul from the body).

Also, John wrote in Revelation:

And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
(Revelation 12:9 NASB)

And so we know that Satan was the serpent who deceived them.

There is much about the account in Genesis 3 that I don't fully understand, but it appears from the NT writings that it was taken literally by them, and, therefore, so should we.
 
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Thisis Thend

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I've been struggling with this question for a while and did not know who to ask, hopefully
I can learn more from this forum.

Jesus died on the cross to redeem us from our sin.
There's a lot of proof about Jesus existence around 2000 years ago.

Our sin is because Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit.
But did this event really happen?
Was there an actual Adam and Eve who walked on this earth?

If they did exist, where is the proof?

The lesson of the fall of man is this - God says: "If you love Me, then choose what I want over what you want. If you love Me, then do what I say, and forsake your own selfish desire." So that if there was nothing available to choose against God, how could you prove your loyalty, devotion, or love of Him? Then the Old Testament comes along, and it's the same lesson - "Do what I ask you to do, not what YOU want to do." Then Christ comes along in His selflessness, with the exact same lesson - "Here are things the Father wants you to do. So, choose against yourself (your desires). Choose for the Father so that you might show your love for Him." And then He confirms it by literally speaking the Word teaching that the ULTIMATE goal of God, the final purpose of everything, is that you love Him with all your heart, mind, and soul! (The same lesson in Genesis!)

And so, I speak the truth! It DOES NOT matter if it literally happened. If you get hung up on this, you are only going down the road of the unbeliever. If you say in yourself; "It really matters to me if this is true. Because if it did not truly and literally happen, then I will have a very difficult time believing anything else the Bible has to say." Because if you REALLY don't care if it happened or not, then you will not even think to concern yourself with it. Instead, you will say to yourself; "Doesn't matter, doesn't effect my faith in the least." So that you will move on to other things. You will move on to fearing God, and trying to follow His commands, which is the REAL HARD WORK!

And to concern yourself with this, is also the same road that many unbelievers go down. It's the same thing they do, questioning or not believing a man called Jesus Christ really lived because these 'miracles' described COULD NOT have really and literally happened, and certainly a man could not have really and literally rose from the dead, etc. So, instead of trying to follow Him, instead of getting on the path and trying do the things He told them to do..., they don't. They don't stand in fear and believe. OR; They do in fact believe and do in fact have some measure of faith, but are sidetracked - concerning themselves with what is literal, and what is symbolic. Again.., instead of being focused on the real work. The hard work...,, of following Him. Amen...,
 
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mark kennedy

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I've been struggling with this question for a while and did not know who to ask, hopefully
I can learn more from this forum.

Jesus died on the cross to redeem us from our sin.
There's a lot of proof about Jesus existence around 2000 years ago.

Our sin is because Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit.
But did this event really happen?
Was there an actual Adam and Eve who walked on this earth?

If they did exist, where is the proof?
The Bible is proof, in the genealogy of Jesus in Luke it ends with Adam, son of God. All the rest were son of someone but Adam was son of God indicating special creation. Romans 5 where Adam is discussed presents him as the first parent of humanity as do all New Testament references to Adam. Four hundred times or so Adam (in the OT), is used to speak of humanity, just as Israel (Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham) is used to speak of the nation that descended from him.

That's just a sampling, it depends on where you get your history. I trust the Bible to give us a fair and accurate history both with regards to redemption and the history of humanity. Other opinions vary.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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