Fake Ministers?

[RepentingSinner]

Hello,

Both my world-father and my sister's partner (a man) became Minister's in order to perform weddings for their friends/family, including non-believers, and even homosexuals. Also, they are not believers themselves, my father on this earth is not a believer, and my sister's partner is not a believer either marrying the homosexuals, and he won't even get married to my sister after 15+ years he refuses too because of legal reasons, he is a lawyer too.

Too even become a minister you have to take a test over 1000 questions from the Bible, and you have to give your testimony on coming to Christ.

So to me it seems they just did it to help to marry friends/family regardless of their true beliefs, and possibly had to make a story up about their testimony just to get their license to marry.

At time I was not a born again Christian, so I thought it was ok.

I am now for the past 5 months been a born again Christian and been obsessed about learning everything I could about Jesus and building a relationship with Jesus Christ our Lord of Lords and King of Kings!

So now I am totally passionate about learning and knowing Jesus, and I can understand that most my family is not, just like I was before. So I can see that they are not Ministers to preach the gospel and help save souls, and the marriages they perform are more for legal reasons, not because they love God, which I felt is kind of disrespectful to real ministers and to Christianity, but I try not to judge, cause maybe seeds were still planted.

I love my family, and I pray for them, but it seems that for becoming a minister is nothing more than a interesting thing to say at parties, and that they can marry anyone that they want legally.

I sometimes feel like confronting them or using their minister status to question their faith in atheism, and showing them their error in their reasoning and thinking based on their view points.

I at least confronted my world-father, in a polite way, saying I am open to hear more about his view points on how he got to his conclusion of being a non-believer, (who as a child would tell me after we die we are just 'worm food', or his partner( a woman) said to me "only stupid people believe in God!") so I was risking insult again, but my father never provides his views, so I assume my father thinks he doesn't need Jesus and he is a good man, I try to forgive him and not judge him, even though I know in God's eye's he is guilty like all of us, and we need Jesus Christ, who died on the cross for our sins, and rose again defeating death.

I guess I get frustrated because my Dad has cause lots of pain for our family, leaving my Mom and divorcing her, because of another women (his current gf, who said only stupid people believe in God.) My real mother died, but my father was never there to give love or comfort, and doesn't see the pain he caused his own kids, because we don't talk about it, we can't even talk about our mother who died, or the pain he caused, we just pretend everything is fine, and we do it all for my worldly-father, but I assume he just thinks he is just perfect and even jokes saying we turned out fine, but we can't say anything or talk back because my father will just get upset or joke about us instead or admitting his faults, and would rather worship money and materials.

So I guess this is normal for born again Christians, that now we see the broken world and the broken people living in sin, and they are the last to see it if at all. I try to share my faith, but they are just like "thanks, but I don't believe that", so at least that is an improvement to insults.

So it seems that all I can do is prove by example and pray for them. But it's not really nice and sad to know my own world father doesn't believe and could face going to hell, but Jesus said he came with a sword to divide, father against son, so the scriptures are being fulfilled.

God bless everyone!

 

[essentialsaltes]

Too even become a minister you have to take a test over 1000 questions from the Bible, and you have to give your testimony on coming to Christ.

Not necessarily. I didn't. That's part of freedom of religion. Some religions may require that, and others do not. And in the eyes of the government, it's all the same.

So to me it seems they just did it to help to marry friends/family

I've done this too. It's very rewarding. It's an honor to be asked to do this, and an honor to make people happy.

 

[Albion]

Both my world-father and my sister's partner (a man) became Minister's in order to perform weddings for their friends/family, including non-believers, and even homosexuals. Also, they are not believers themselves, my father on this earth is not a believer, and my sister's partner is not a believer either marrying the homosexuals, and he won't even get married to my sister after 15+ years he refuses too because of legal reasons, he is a lawyer too.

The first question to be asked is "Which church ordained these people?" If it's some mail-order ordination, there is no credibility in that with most Christians, but of course these ministers usually can perform weddings--and that is normally the only objective.

 

[Gregorikos]

Too even become a minister you have to take a test over 1000 questions from the Bible, and you have to give your testimony on coming to Christ.

You can become a legally ordained minister with no examination and no fee. It means nothing before God, but it works for the state. Here you go:

Universal Life Church - Become a Minister Online

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I think this may be a result of churches requiring worldly institutions to certify clergy, this just comes with the territory.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I think this may be a result of churches requiring worldly institutions to certify clergy, this just comes with the territory.

Quite the opposite. Secular governments do not interfere with how churches determine their clergy. If a church says you can do it with a mouse-click, who is the government to say their theology is wrong?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Quite the opposite. Secular governments do not interfere with how churches determine their clergy. If a church says you can do it with a mouse-click, who is the government to say their theology is wrong?

I think we're in agreement?

 

[essentialsaltes]

I think we're in agreement?

I don't know. Churches do not "require worldly institutions to certify clergy".

(Where governments get involved is more with a marriage ceremony itself. The officiant can only legally perform the marriage if there is a valid marriage license.)

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I don't know. Churches do not "require worldly institutions to certify clergy".

(Where governments get involved is more with a marriage ceremony itself. The officiant can only legally perform the marriage if there is a valid marriage license.)

I get what you mean, I wasn't saying that.

I was referring to the church becoming secular, the seminaries were becoming secular, all philosophy without spirituality.

Without that spiritual core, the complaints about fake ministers is silly, since there's no standard to compare them to.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I was referring the church was becoming secular, the seminaries were becoming secular, all philosophy without spirituality.

Aha! Thanks, yes. I think we do agree on the main point.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I think the very subject of marriage is interesting and raises questions for me, none of which I have taken much time to learn about. For instance:

• As a Christian, what is the value of a Christian marriage? Is it that the church has blessed the union. that a couple has made a public vow before God, both, or something else? I confess as a married man, our vow made before God means more to me than the fact that our church blessed the union.
• When in the history of man, did marriage become institutionalized? If you go back through all the "begats" in the Bible, when was a formalized marriage rite involved in all the begating? Who married Adam's son, Seth? Did Noah have a marriage ceremony, religious or civil? Moses? David? When?
• Which came first: recognition of a marriage contract by government or a marriage rite in the context of religious faith?
• To what degree is our view of marriage culture bound?

Perhaps someday I'll do serious study of the subject to satisfy my curiosity. As for now it seems the answers to some of these questions may hold bearing upon the officiant.

 

[Tinker Grey]

@seeking.IAM, I like this quote from C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity:

The Christian conception of marriage is one: the other is the quite different question - how far Christians, if they are voters or Members of Parliament, ought to try to force their views of marriage on the rest of the community by embodying them in the divorce laws. A great many people seem to think that if you are a Christian yourself you should try to make divorce difficult for every one. I do not think that. At least I know I should be very angry if the Mohammendans tried to prevent the rest of us from drinking wine.

My own view is that the Churches should frankly recognise that the majority of the British people are not Christians and, therefore, cannot be expected to live Christian lives. There ought to be two distinct kinds of marriage: one governed by the State with rules enforced on all citizens, and the other governed by the Church with rules enforced by her on her own members. The distinction ought be to quite sharp, so that a man know which couples are married in a Christian sense and which are not.

 

[RepentingSinner]

You can become a legally ordained minister with no examination and no fee. It means nothing before God, but it works for the state. Here you go:

Universal Life Church - Become a Minister Online

Yeah, that's convenient, but in this case, they said they had to answer those questions, and it was online. So yeah, for them it probably has nothing to do with God, even though they had to answer questions about the Bible and a testimony, probably cost a fee too. So I guess they get their rewards on earth for their act.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Considering everything I belive a minister is, yes those you speak of are pretty much beyond doubt fakes.

Know them by their fruits.

 

[Paidiske]

I think this may be a result of churches requiring worldly institutions to certify clergy, this just comes with the territory.

It's the other way round; the civic governments require a system by which they can be assured of which people are authorised to conduct legal marriages.

Why the OP's family members didn't just become civil celebrants, I'm not sure. I assume there is such a thing as a civil celebrant in Canada?

That said, sure, they're fake ministers. It doesn't seem they're even attached to any community of faith which might be prepared to consider claiming them as ministers. I can understand why that causes the OP some angst, but all of us have to learn to deal with people we love who make choices we wouldn't.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

It's the other way round; the civic governments require a system by which they can be assured of which people are authorised to conduct legal marriages.

Why the OP's family members didn't just become civil celebrants, I'm not sure. I assume there is such a thing as a civil celebrant in Canada?

That said, sure, they're fake ministers. It doesn't seem they're even attached to any community of faith which might be prepared to consider claiming them as ministers. I can understand why that causes the OP some angst, but all of us have to learn to deal with people we love who make choices we wouldn't.

Well, in Canada, there are denominations that marry Same Sex Couples, it's been legal since 2005.

So, it's a little different than just about everywhere.

There is the civil union option, but some people have always wanted a church wedding, so ..

 

[Paidiske]

There is the civil union option, but some people have always wanted a church wedding, so ..

No, I'm not talking about civil unions. In Australia, you can have a wedding - proper marriage - officiated either by a minister of religion, a justice of the peace, or a civil celebrant (so someone who is not a minister of religion but conducts weddings, funerals and other ceremonies to the requirements of the people concerned).

Does Canada not have an option like that, someone who is not a minister but who is authorised to conduct legal marriages?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

No, I'm not talking about civil unions. In Australia, you can have a wedding - proper marriage - officiated either by a minister of religion, a justice of the peace, or a civil celebrant (so someone who is not a minister of religion but conducts weddings, funerals and other ceremonies to the requirements of the people concerned).

Does Canada not have an option like that, someone who is not a minister but who is authorised to conduct legal marriages?

According to google,

The marriage must be performed by a member of the clergy registered under the Act or a marriage commissioner appointed under the Act. Registries of these persons are maintained. The Marriage Act also states that there must be two adult, credible witnesses.

 

[Paidiske]

Ah, I see. I just did some reading up on marriage commissioners in Canada. It sounds very different to our system. It does sound as if, if you want a religious component to the wedding, you have to have a minister of religion, which explains why the OP's family members might have gone down that route.

While that doesn't make their choice a great one, it sounds as if the Canadian system could use some tweaking, too...

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Ah, I see. I just did some reading up on marriage commissioners in Canada. It sounds very different to our system. It does sound as if, if you want a religious component to the wedding, you have to have a minister of religion, which explains why the OP's family members might have gone down that route.

While that doesn't make their choice a great one, it sounds as if the Canadian system could use some tweaking, too...

Everything's based on the colonial system still at the base, just with modules added later on. Same system tho.