Faith?

[Miami Marlins 2012]

Perhaps you would do good to study the science that shows you the Bible is true.

I have done so, and so far creationist "science" is nothing more than cherry picked, twisted, misinterpreted science and quotes taken out of context in a dishonest attempt to discredit real scientists.

I've watched all of Kent Hovind's videos and read his "dissertation." I've even followed Erik Hovind's videos. I have also watched countless hours of videos from other creationists. They are all the same, and they all spew out the same garbage.

 

[CTD]

Straw man. Nobody uses science to argue against creationism.

Then what have I been doing? And what have others here been doing too?

If someone can provide an honest answer that won't get me accused of "flaming", I'd be happy to tell you. It certainly doesn't involve the systematic pursuit of knowledge.

To my knowledge it is not possible to employ science to argue against creationism. I have never seen it attempted, and in principle it is impossible unless one may alter the past by means such as wishing or asserting or presupposing. If anyone believes those methods effective, they're welcome to erase me from history. Indeed, one can't help expecting they already would've erased all who see through the farce of evolutionism.

 

[Doveaman]

As someone who is scientifically oriented, when I am wrong I admit it and embrace the corrected ideas.

Yes, I'm well aware scientists take pleasure in being wrong until proven wrong.

Granted, these are clonal trees, meaning that the root system itself is many thousands of years old, while the trees that sprout out of them are not as old, but still, the root systems of these trees have been alive for longer than Creationists claim the Earth has existed.

This fits perfectly well with my version of creationism -- that the creation events in Genesis 1 is not an original creation, but a re-creation.

 

[Doveaman]

Ok, let's leave science out of it. What proof do you have for a God other than gut feelings, faith, and a fictional book containing magical tales that defy logic and common sense?

The consistently accurate predictions of that "fictional book" provides overwhelming evidence for God.

It even accurately predicts your present behavior:

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and he cannot understand them" (1 Cor 2:1).

Prediction confirmed. Again.

 

[CabVet]

the creation events in Genesis 1 is not an original creation, but a re-creation.

First time I see this one, care to elaborate?

 

[Miami Marlins 2012]

First time I see this one, care to elaborate?

CabVet, whenever the science gets to the point that it is obvious something in the Bible couldn't have happened, they either disregard it or invent a new "theory" of how God created the world.

In other words, they just make up another version of how things happened, out of thin air. That's why no matter what science uncovers, people will always choose to believe in the mystical. They prefer to hang on to their fragile beliefs because it is more appealing to them than the prospect that death is a permanent situation, with no afterlife.

 

[AV1611VET]

Yes, I'm well aware scientists take pleasure in being wrong until proven wrong.

ZING!
​

 

[Miami Marlins 2012]

ZING!
​

Is that so? And what scientist told you that if you don't mind me asking? You seem to think scientists are just fairy tale writers who sit around a table writing works of fiction all day, without a single bit of actual science being done.

PS: I hope you dont take it personally. I enjoy debating you. It's a lot of fun. You have some interesting ideas, and I much enjoy reading the things you write.

 

[AV1611VET]

Is that so?

Yes.

And what scientist told you that if you don't mind me asking?

I've had Internet scientists tell me they can't wait until being shown wrong, because it will mean that the next paradigm that comes out will be that much more exciting.

Like a sequel to a movie, only the new movie has to show the old movie plot wrong.

You seem to think scientists are just fairy tale writers who sit around a table writing works of fiction all day, without a single bit of actual science being done.

I think scientists are gifted to us from God. They are men and women with the special ability to gain and use knowledge of God's hardware.

However & unfortunately, they abuse their gift, and most even use God's gift against Him.

PS: I hope you dont take it personally.

Not at all.

I enjoy debating you.

Thank you; but like many others, I am afraid you'll get tired of it soon and turn into ... well ... something else.

One poster in particular here, used to be very friendly with us; now he posts almost pure ridicule and venom.

It's a lot of fun.

Thank you -- likewise.

You have some interesting ideas, and I much enjoy reading the things you write.

Thank you very much.

I praise the Lord for that; because I think He has shut me down to science, so I can concentrate on faith.

 

[TheReasoner]

The literal interpretation.

No -- I'm 'pushing my interpretation of God's word.'

YOUR interpretation. An aberration! Your own construction, justified by a narrowminded and panicky grab at an interpretation that does not even make sense when one considers the bible alone. There are even conflicting creation stories, for pete's sake. Which has been brought up here before. Of course, once again, you just ignore it. Leading me - again - to conclude you're pushing your own interpretation. Your own fabrication. Not even close to a valid interpretation of God's word. If for no other reasons for the arrogance displayed in refusing to acknowledge the possibility of human error. That is putting an interpretation, or even the interpreter above God.

I doubt that very seriously.

You do not believe in evolution. Yet it is not problematic to catholics, orthodox or lutherans. You're an independent baptist, right? That's what? 200 years old? Yet the orthodox are the oldest ones around. And the catholics come straight from Peter. Sure. Some modifications along the way, but they can claim an uncut line. You cannot. At all. Most Lutherans also have no problem with evolution. You damn and condemn it, without even knowing what it is, despite years on here.


Jesus is alright, but the kind of christianity(tm) on here I want no part of. Bias, condemnation, greed and just plain old willful ignorance... None of that is good. It is all bad.

 

[The Paul]

When I read 1984 in highschool, I thought the level of conditioning achieved was silly and unbelievable.

You do not have to threaten anyone with anything. God is a God of absolute Justice. His scale is perfectly balanced. The choice is forgiveness though the Blood of Jesus so we can be born again and become a new Creation in Christ. Or we can choose to receive what Justice demands for our crime and the laws we have broken. If you have done nothing wrong, then you have nothing to worry about.

Look, God's not threatening you. He's just saying you've got two options and if you pick the wrong one he'll torture you for all eternity.

 

[The Paul]

The consistently accurate predictions of that "fictional book" provides overwhelming evidence for God.

It even accurately predicts your present behavior:

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and he cannot understand them" (1 Cor 2:1).

Prediction confirmed. Again.

Seriously? Trying to claim your prophetic powers are real be "predicting" people will deny them?

 

[TheReasoner]

Seriously? Trying to claim your prophetic powers are real be "predicting" people will deny them?

You're not surprised though, right? This is a typical fanatic's M.O.:

Someone disagrees or criticizes a fanatic and the person is suddenly against their god, ignorant for spiritual reasons, just plain uninformed, or otherwise blind.
There is NEVER anything that can show a fanatic when he has made a mistake. Because the fanatic CANNOT make a mistake. His is the power and glory, in his own eyes. Oh, sure. He'll slap the 'god' sticker on it for sure. God says this, and God says that. Problem is, one fanatic will say one thing. Then the next one over will use the same book to say something that contradicts the first guy. Again, naming 'god' and saying that HE, the Lord almighteh is on just this particular fanatic's side. Possibly swaddled in a flag with a gun in his hand.
Thing is, you might be able to discuss with someone who has their head screwed on right, regardless of religion. Such as the Dalai Lama, Desmond Tutu, Martin Luther King Jr., Descartes, or a bunch of others. But face a fanatic and you will always be a delusional representative of evil who just needs to see the light - viz. to agree with said fanatic. Or, in some cases, killed. (Which some on here wanted [In God's name] for me for no other crime than being left leaning politicially). You cannot debate with them, because they are (usually unbeknownst to them) their own gods. I'm rather sure they wouldn't recognize Jesus if He walked into their churches (where He may or may not overturn tables filled with worship CDs and t-shirts and start chasing people out [e.g. John 2:13-17], or perhaps yell and curse at them [e.g. Matthew 23] for being unjust and harsh.)

 

[TheReasoner]

Guess I ought to have my username changed. To what though...

 

[Jazer]

What are your thoughts?

You seem to think there is some sort of a conflict between science and religion. There is none, they get along just fine. Religion tends to be a bit slow to change and adapt to new information when it comes along. The real problem or conflict is redemption. According to Christian belief we live in a fallen world and we are in need of a Redeemer and Redemption. Although in some aspects that is not a problem either. Science is working to overcome the errors that have found their way into the DNA. So they have their program of restoration also. So even in that regard there is some agreement. The Bible says it will be common for people to live to be 100. It is not so uncommon now for people to live to be 80. So it may not be that far off to add another 20 years to the average life expectancy.

The Bible is to be new and fresh for every generation. We need to find truth for ourselves and not just be content with the truth people before us have found.

 

[Jazer]

Look, God's not threatening you. He's just saying you've got two options and if you pick the wrong one he'll torture you for all eternity.

Really? Can you give me the verse in the Bible where He says that? Or does man say that He says that without checking to see what the Bible says? I tend to believe in annihilationism. The Lake of Fire at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ is the second death. There are people that are universalists that believe everyone will be redeemed. So your eternal torment theory is not the only ball game in town. There are other beliefs. You may find a passage to support your eternal torture doctorine. I can give you hundreds if not thousands of passages that support annihilationism. Also science supports their version of annihilationism. Not to say that people do not suffer. I know I do not seem to get away with everything. Sooner or later our sin does seem to find us out. Like a credit card sooner or later we have to pay, but we do not have to pay forever. Then there is the belief that Jesus paid the price for what we are not able to pay for ourselves.

 

[TheReasoner]

You seem to think there is some sort of a conflict between science and religion. There is none, they get along just fine. Religion tends to be a bit slow to change and adapt to new information when it comes along. The real problem or conflict is redemption. According to Christian belief we live in a fallen world and we are in need of a Redeemer and Redemption. Although in some aspects that is not a problem either. Science is working to overcome the errors that have found their way into the DNA. So they have their program of restoration also. So even in that regard there is some agreement. The Bible says it will be common for people to live to be 100. It is not so uncommon now for people to live to be 80. So it may not be that far off to add another 20 years to the average life expectancy.

The Bible is to be new and fresh for every generation. We need to find truth for ourselves and not just be content with the truth people before us have found.

I used to think there was no problem. I know a fair deal about relevant stuff. Physics, genetics, chemistry... Problem is, some people on here like AV insist that christianity is impossible, that it is a lie, plain and simple. Oh I know, they say the opposite. Problem is, we know we evolved. We know evolution happens. We know the universe and the earth are all old. Very old, compared to what the creationists say.

So... I have been faced with a choice. Either, AV and his ilk are wrong in their biblical interpretation -and they might be. The Catholic church has both called the "controversy" nonsensical said that evolution is a fact, even for us humans. And the orthodox church considers it to be unproblematic as well. Hence, my doubt has not come from science, it has come from christian americans insisting and insisting and insisting that christianity and science are opposites. If I find they are wrong about that, I might go back to Christianity.

OR, the alternative to creationism being right in their biblical interpretation is that Christianity is an outright lie. That`s it. I can go and test what the creationists claim to be false, and I know plenty who have. There is no doubt, they are dead wrong about reality. So the question is if they are right about theology. If they are, Christianity is a lie. And if I conclude creationists are right about the bible, well then I have no choice but to become anti-christian. I cannot abhor lies. Jesus has some seriously good philosophies so I won't dismiss those. That's not what I mean by anti-christian. But I will not only reject the bible, I will fight those who spread it. Just like Dawkins. (Behold the actual (Dawkins and many with him) and potential (me and maybe some with me) fruit of your labor, creationists)

Such a choice is not easy though. Heavens, I have worked in a missions agency for five years and been active in missions all my life. Since before I could stand or walk. So... Until the issue is resolved to my satisfaction I consider myself an agnostic. But I will not let my past stand in the way of integrity.

 

[CabVet]

Really? Can you give me the verse in the Bible where He says that? Or does man say that He says that without checking to see what the Bible says? I tend to believe in annihilationism. The Lake of Fire at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ is the second death. There are people that are universalists that believe everyone will be redeemed. So your eternal torment theory is not the only ball game in town. There are other beliefs.

"Anyone who isn't with me opposes me, and anyone who isn't working with me is actually working against me" Luke 11:23.

"That person will also drink of the wine of God’s anger that has been mixed undiluted in the cup of his wrath, and he will be tortured with fire and sulfur in front of the holy angels and in front of the Lamb." Revelations 14:10.

Bible's response to annihilationism:

"And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" Matthew 25:46.

"Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice" John 5:28.

There is more where those came from. Universalists and annihilationists can take a hike

 

[Lillen]

Your darkness is striking, first you say God is wicked because he allows bad things happand to people, then you call God wicked because he punish those causing bad things to happand!

'Total Darkness'.