Faith?

[CTD]

Creationism is a faith.

If one worked in science, then he can argue for creationism with science.

If a creationist does not care about science, then he is perfectly correct to reject any scientific argument which is against creationism. If you like to reason with those people, then you should not use science in your argument.

Straw man. Nobody uses science to argue against creationism.

 

[Miami Marlins 2012]

Straw man. Nobody uses science to argue against creationism.

Then what have I been doing? And what have others here been doing too? We have shown you the science a million times, but your stance will always be the same. No matter how much science and how many fossils you ever see, some people are just destined to always believe in fairy tales.

If one could ever build a time machine and take you back 400 million years and show you the freaking Trilobites and the early proto-amphibians coming out of the oceans for the first time....you would still deny science.

I have fossils in my personal collection of trilobites, brachiopods, ancient corals, and other Cambrian and Devonian period fauna. I once showed a Christian friend some of the fossils and explained them to him. The only response I got was..."They are just rocks. How do I know someone didn't carve them out." How can you argue against such ignorance?

You don't even need to be a scientist to understand most of the science out there. All you need is an open mind, critical thinking, and a willingness to learn. I'm not a scientist.... I studied History and Law. I will never know as much as a scientist by trade...but that doesn't mean I should be ignorant of science.

Bottom line, if you are just going to cherry pick the science and twist it to fit your Creationist model, then me and everyone else here are just wasting our time with you.

 

[AV1611VET]

I once showed a Christian friend some of the fossils and explained them to him. The only response I got was..."They are just rocks. How do I know someone didn't carve them out." How can you argue against such ignorance?

Let me guess.

That rock was dated by the trilobite impression, wasn't it?

 

[Miami Marlins 2012]

Let me guess.

That rock was dated by the trilobite impression, wasn't it?

It is more than an impression. Some trilobite fossils are so well preserved that they form a perfect 3-D impression of the original animal, and in some rare cases one could even cut away into the trilobite and see some of the internal structures of the animal (or X-Ray the fossil,) which is how we know what some of the internal bits of the trilobites looked like.

All my trilobite fossils are of the type that form an exact 3-D impression of the animal (cost me a pretty penny,) and the details are extensive. In one of them you can even see the structure of the eye. It had compound eyes similar to a modern insect, which is expected considering trilobites were basically ancient aquatic proto-cockroaches, and the ancestors of modern insects. Amazing, isn't it?

As for dating a fossil, that is done by looking at the decay of the radioactive isotopes in the rock layers. We now know with certainty the ages for different species of trilobites. It's to the point that now you can just date a layer of rock by simply finding a specific species, since the date range for that species has already been established through previous extensive radiometric dating techniques.

Collecting quality ancient fossils is not a cheap hobby, but it's fun, educational, and some make for interesting conversation starters.

 

[Belk]

I`ll keep this really really simple.

I haven't really had faith in creationism for years, and my education has only served to show me ever more clearly how foolish the whole thing is.
However, I keep running into people who insist it is the sole true faith. That Christianity has no meaning without it - or who insist in one way or another to try to use sophism or fallacious logic in an attempt to undermine the theory of evolution - which they claim they have no real problem with. Far be it from me to discourage intellectually honest criticism of the set paradigm. However, I see no reason to accept or give any respect to woolly thinking or shoddy logic. And frankly, I see more and more of that within Christian ranks. I have, I confess, reached a point where I m asking myself the following question:
What validity does faith have if it cannot survive science without attempting to undermine and explain it away? Oh sure someone will come along and say they aren`t, that they are just showing genuine and valid scepticism and criticism, as is proper for any intellectual. However, even from academics I am yet to see any sound criticism of the paradigm as a whole. Single points, yes. Of course. But even those who dismiss the paradigm as a whole do not appear to have backing for this, yet it would seem their faith requires them to dismiss or attempt to explain away reality itself.

Now, my faith is not threatened by science. If it were not for creationists I'd have no problem. No, it is threatened by Christians who apparently cannot accept science yet need to fight it at any bend and curve. Either openly, like AV, Dad etc. or through shallow excuses they might even believe themselves. Yet it always comes down to the same point it would seem: Faith does appear to be in conflict with creation. So, I am asking why should one believe? If Christianity had been about Christ's teachings I'd have had no problem at all, those are awesome. But as it appears to be about how the universe is wrong and subject to mental gymnastics which need not concern themselves with such troublesome things as hard data. So the question "What validity does faith have?" inevitably arises. Now, why should I exchange my cross for a brain, or why should I NOT do so? I asked a chaplain here, but he gave me a thoroughly unsatisfactory answer, to say the very least, more along the same worn out and shallow lines. So... What are your thoughts?

I don't think you should let the uneducated drive you from your faith. There will always be those that try to take something good and twist it into a pretzel so that it is more to their liking. That they do so does not negate the underlying good things that religion can do.

 

[AV1611VET]

It is more than an impression.

I don't care if it's a 4-dimensional tesseract; do you, or do you not, date the rock by the trilobite impression/3-D/4-D/entrails/eyes/whatever?

Some trilobite fossils are so well preserved that they form a perfect 3-D impression of the original animal, and in some rare cases one could even cut away into the trilobite and see some of the internal structures of the animal (or X-Ray the fossil,) which is how we know what some of the internal bits of the trilobites looked like.

Look -- I'm sorry I asked, okay? just ignore my question.

All my trilobite fossils are of the type that form an exact 3-D impression of the animal (cost me a pretty penny,) and the details are extensive. In one of them you can even see the structure of the eye. It had compound eyes similar to a modern insect, which is expected considering trilobites were basically ancient aquatic proto-cockroaches, and the ancestors of modern insects. Amazing, isn't it?

Yes, amazing --

 

[AV1611VET]

I don't think you should let the uneducated drive you from your faith.

So much for being a faith guardian, eh?

And for the record, Jesus didn't go to college, held no doctorate, and by you guys' standard, was just an ignorant bronze-age goat herder; yet He turned the world upside down, and split time.

 

[Miami Marlins 2012]

do you, or do you not, date the rock by the trilobite impression/3-D/4-D/entrails/eyes/whatever?

I already answered that:

As for dating a fossil, that is done by looking at the decay of the radioactive isotopes in the rock layers. We now know with certainty the ages for different species of trilobites. It's to the point that now you can just date a layer of rock by simply finding a specific species, since the date range for that species has already been established through previous extensive radiometric dating techniques.

 

[AV1611VET]

I already answered that:

Great -- so you date the rock (or "fossil" as you Arab-phoned it to) by the layer of rock it was found in; and you date the layer of rock by the [fossil] found in it?

Is that what you're trying to say?

(Heaven forbid I should get a straight answer the first time.)

 

[juvenissun]

You are beginning to get it. Your faith is based on fairy tales, not science. Thank you for telling me not to waste my time talking science with you, since you do not care about science.

We are done here. There is nothing for me to discuss with someone who says that they don't care about science, only about what their faith says.

I guess you do not know how to argue against creationism if you do not talk about science. Do you?

 

[Miami Marlins 2012]

I guess you do not know how to argue against creationism if you do not talk about science. Do you?

Ok, let's leave science out of it. What proof do you have for a God other than gut feelings, faith, and a fictional book containing magical tales that defy logic and common sense?

 

[Miami Marlins 2012]

Great -- so you date the rock (or "fossil" as you Arab-phoned it to) by the layer of rock it was found in; and you date the layer of rock by the [fossil] found in it?

Is that what you're trying to say?

(Heaven forbid I should get a straight answer the first time.)

You date the fossil by taking a sample of the rock that makes up the fossil itself (after all, the fossil is now in the form of a rock) and then looking at the traces of radioactive elements in the fossil. We know the decay rates of the radioactive elements because of scientific data that scientists have accumulated on the decay rates for different elements. By looking at how much of the parent material is left, and how much of the daughter material (ie. decayed element) there is, we then get the age of the fossil.

For example: Uranium has a half life of 700 million years. When we find a fossil, we look for uranium traces that were trapped in zircon crystals inside the rock when it was formed. If we find a fossil with 2/3 of the parent material (uranium) and 1/3 of the daughter material (lead), then we know that the uranium in that sample has been decaying for 350 million years. So the fossil is 350 million years old.

Once we have taken many samples from many fossil and find that, for example, a particular fossil of a species is always 350-380 million years old, then every time we find that species in a layer of rock, that rock layer must be 350-380 million years old...unless there are signs of disturbance found in the rock layer that indicate the fossil was not originally in that layer. If that's the case, we must date the rock layer separately to get a good result.

The formula for radiometric dating is D = D0 + N(t) (eλt − 1)

According to a book I have in front of me, the formula breaks down as follows:
t is age of the sample, D is the number of atoms of the daughter isotope in the sample, D0 stands for the number of atoms of the daughter isotope in the original composition, N is for the number of atoms of the parent isotope in the sample at time t (the present time), given by N(t) = Noe-λt, and λ is the decay constant of the parent isotope, equal to the inverse of the radioactive half-life of the parent isotope times the natural logarithm of 2.

That's a lot of science....too much for someone with a legal education...but thankfully I have the books that break down the formulas into their individual components, so that even someone like me can understand how it is done!

 

[Belk]

So much for being a faith guardian, eh?

It is almost as if the mockery you make of his religion was to much.

And for the record, Jesus didn't go to college, held no doctorate, and by you guys' standard, was just an ignorant bronze-age goat herder; yet He turned the world upside down, and split time.

Iron age AV, and I thought he was a carpenter?

 

[AlexBP]

Religion is inflexible. Each of the thousands of religions/cults on Earth demand that you believe what an ancient book or legend says....and that they are the true religion because that's what they were taught to believe. If you don't believe they will either harm you or threaten you with eternal damnation.

I don't believe that your characterization of all of the world's religions is accurate. Can you provide a citation to a reliable source which affirms that what you've said here is true?

Let me ask you a question. When you get to your heaven, how do you know you won't find the Roman Gods, or the Greek Gods, or the Hindu Gods, or Allah, or one of the thousands of other Gods there are....instead of yours?

If I get to Heaven, then obviously God will be there, as he's the one who created Heaven. The Roman gods did not promise their followers an afterlife in Heaven.

But more to the point, I know that Jesus Christ is real because He has saved my soul. When I was sinking into a pit of despair and hopelessness, Jesus Christ rescued me and restored me to newness of life. Consequently I know that Jesus Christ is real and keeps His promises. If He keeps the promise of salvation, why wouldn't He also keep the promise of eternal life?

 

[AV1611VET]

It is almost as if the mockery you make of his religion was to much.

Well now he has a new faith to guard, and I pray he guards it as strongly as his former faith.

And in fact, I wish all you guys were like him.

Iron age AV,

Okay, thank you.

 

[juvenissun]

Ok, let's leave science out of it. What proof do you have for a God other than gut feelings, faith, and a fictional book containing magical tales that defy logic and common sense?

Are theists more in population than atheists on the earth?

I would say all theists are creationists.

 

[Belk]

Well now he has a new faith to guard, and I pray he guards it as strongly as his former faith.

And in fact, I wish all you guys were like him.

Yes, it must be hard when people who share your faith have the audacity to use the brains God gave them despite the dire warnings not to.

Okay, thank you.

You're welcome.

 

[Miami Marlins 2012]

Yes, it must be hard when people who share your faith have the audacity to use the brains God gave them despite the dire warnings not to.

Ah yes, when all else fails threaten people with hell fire and torture from the loving God. Believe or burn in hell.

That fear worked on me when I was 5 years old. Fortunately I grew up and developed critical thinking skills.

 

[Jazer]

Ok, let's leave science out of it. What proof do you have for a God other than gut feelings, faith, and a fictional book containing magical tales that defy logic and common sense?

Perhaps you would do good to study the science that shows you the Bible is true.

 

[Jazer]

Ah yes, when all else fails threaten people with hell fire and torture from the loving God.

You do not have to threaten anyone with anything. God is a God of absolute Justice. His scale is perfectly balanced. The choice is forgiveness though the Blood of Jesus so we can be born again and become a new Creation in Christ. Or we can choose to receive what Justice demands for our crime and the laws we have broken. If you have done nothing wrong, then you have nothing to worry about.