Faith?

[Miami Marlins 2012]

*WHICH* sect of 'Christianity' shall we believe?

Why believe in any sect? After all, Christianity is not the only religion out there. If you had been born in Saudi Arabia you would have most likely been a Muslim, in India you would have most likely been a Hindu. Had you been born in Thailand you would have been Budhist. Had you been born in central Africa you'd be worshiping the mountain spirits.

There are hundreds of religions out there, not to mention the Ancient Gods, and all claim that their religious belief is the right one. So who's right and who's wrong? After all, more than 75% of the world does not believe in Christianity.

Boy, are you going to be ticked if there is a heaven and the God in charge turns out to be Zeus or Lord Shiva.

The safer bet is that there is no heaven though, since there is no proof of God or Gods, or Spirits, or whatever other thousands of supernatural beings people around the World believe in.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

To the OP,

There are many Christians who accept modern science at face value. Christianity has produced great scientists (including the man who developed the Big Bang theory, a Catholic priest named Georges Lemaitre) and one of the earliest advocates for the theory of evolution, a personal friend of Charles Darwin named Asa Gray.

My suggestion is that, if you feel like you cannot accept Christianity without checking your rationality at the door, you should look at resources like the American Scientific Affiliation. Depending on your religious perspective, you might also want to consider speaking with a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox priest, many of whom accept evolution (since Young Earth Creationism is a rare exception among Catholics and Orthodox rather than the rule; rarer among Catholics) and who are devout men of God. The Chaplains here come from a perspective which is dominantly creationist, and will answer from that perspective.

I hope that you are able to speak to someone who will be able to help you with all of this. I can give you a few more resources if you would like them.

 

[Jazer]

There are hundreds of religions out there,

Not really, you have Moses, confucius buddha Jesus and muhammad. Who else is there? Moses and Jesus goes together, Confucius and Buddha sort of go together. Muhammad still calls Abraham his father. So he is tied in with the Hebrew/Jewish and Christian faith.

Of course there is communism which is very much like a religion in some regards.

 

[Miami Marlins 2012]

Not really, you have Moses, confucius buddha Jesus and muhammad. Who else is there?

Buddhism, Christianity (Dozens of different groups here), Mormonism, Judaism, Islam, Taoism, Unitarian Universalism, Scientology, Jainism, Sikhism, Mithraism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto, Confucianism, Ayyavazhi, Din-I-Llahi, Manichaeism, etc. ---> the list goes on...I can list two dozen more.

Granted, many of the smaller religions in this list only have a few million followers. But they are still established Asian and European/American religions.

Then there are hundreds of African tribal religions, hundreds of Native American and South American native religions. There are also dozens of pagan religions, and still quite a few followers of the ancient religions such as Greek religion, Roman religion, etc.

In all, Christianity in it's many different flavors only encompasses 1.7 Billion people in the world...which is less than 1/4 of the world. Over 3/4 of the world believes in a bunch of different religions or no God at all.

 

[AV1611VET]

Let me ask you a question. When you get to your heaven, how do you know you won't find the Roman Gods, or the Greek Gods, or the Hindu Gods, or Allah, or one of the thousands of other Gods there are....instead of yours?

I'll go with the One Whose Diary was written over a period of some 1500 years by some 40 undersecretaries, many of whom were martyred; then preserved for 2000 more.

 

[CabVet]

I'll go with the One Whose Diary was written over a period of some 1500 years by some 40 undersecretaries, many of whom were martyred; then preserved for 2000 more.

Have you ever heard of the Vedas?

 

[AV1611VET]

Have you ever heard of the Vedas?

Yes, why?

 

[CabVet]

Yes, why?

Written over an equally long period, by just as many (or more) people, preserved for just as long.

 

[AV1611VET]

Written over an equally long period, by just as many (or more) people, preserved for just as long.

Name the authors.

 

[Jazer]

After all, more than 75% of the world does not believe in Christianity.

That is the way God does things.
The Hebrew nation was the least of all nations.
Yet they carried God's message to the world.

1 cor 1 27
"But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise;
God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong"

 

[AV1611VET]

After all, more than 75% of the world does not believe in Christianity.

Percentage-wise, how much of the world believed that Thalidomide was a prenatal wonder drug?

 

[Miami Marlins 2012]

Percentage-wise, how much of the world believed that Thalidomide was a prenatal wonder drug?

Most people in the World still believe in spirits, demi-Gods, Gods, and demons, but it doesn't make any of it true. Number of believers in myths vs. number of non-believers does not prove the existence of any gods. I simply mentioned it because many Christians seem to believe that outside of Islam and Buddhism there aren't any other religions in the world....which means they have a 1/3 chance of being right.

Thankfully as science progresses and we see that "God" does not live in the clouds with his Angels, or Satan inside the Earth, and that we are just one mediocre planet orbiting around a mediocre star in a mediocre galaxy, people are waking up to the truth. It's funny to see Christian apologetics and Creationists coming up with crazier ideas to justify their faith, as science continues to advance and show us a wonderful Universe that the bible or any of the dozens of other religious books around the World never imagined.

Religions are the remnant of our primitive pre-scientific age culture. Thankfully the number of atheists is on the rise as education levels increase, and as science progresses and discovers the wonders of our Universe, which are far greater than any religious mind ever conceived.

The only things that keep people believing in religion is (1) the fear of dying, and (2) the fear of punishment both in this world and in the "afterlife" to those that don't believe. To the first one, I was dead for 13.75 Billion years and I certainly didn't seem to care, so I'll just enjoy my time alive and when my life draws to a close, I doubt my dead brain will care about the fact that I'm dead. To the second one, I wonder how I'm going to burn in hell when my body won't exist, and fire requires atoms to form its chemical reaction....oh, I forgot, it's special God fire that doesn't follow the laws of the Universe.

 

[AV1611VET]

Most people in the World still believe in spirits, demi-Gods, Gods, and demons, but it doesn't make any of it true.

That's true -- that's why they're called false idols.

If believing in something made it true, then I would believe I'm a millionaire.

Number of believers in myths vs. number of non-believers does not prove the existence of any gods.

That's true -- if everyone on the face of the earth believed in evolution, that would not prove the existence of Charles Dagon.

I simply mentioned it because many Christians seem to believe that outside of Islam and Buddhism there aren't any other religions in the world....

In a sense, there is only one true religion on the face of the earth. Carl S. Lewis, I believe, used to think that, in the end, it would all boil down to Christianity vs. Hinduism, since Christianity is monotheistic, and Hinduism is the most polytheistic of all religions.

I personally believe it will come down to Christianity, led by Jesus Christ, vs. Evolution, led by the Antichrist.

which means they have a 1/3 chance of being right.

Okay.

Thankfully as science progresses and we see that "God" does not live in the clouds with his Angels, or Satan inside the Earth, and that we are just one mediocre planet orbiting around a mediocre star in a mediocre galaxy, people are waking up to the truth.

The only alarm clock that's about to go off is the shout of a trumpet.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

It's funny to see Christian apologetics and Creationists coming up with crazier ideas to justify their faith,

If you read between the lines, especially of my posts, you'll see that the concept that stands out the furthest is simply, "God did it."

Whether it be Paul or tomorrow's apologist, "God did it" will continue to be the be-all/end-all explanation for what we see.

In fact, I've reduced it to a term I use that many here don't like: pulling rank.

... as science continues to advance and show us a wonderful Universe that the bible or any of the dozens of other religious books around the World never imagined.

If by 'wonderful' you mean 'full of wonder', then I agree; but if by 'wonderful' you mean 'fantastic', then you need to realize that what you're looking at is the result of a sin-cursed universe.

What you see as a beautiful nebula, God sees as a star in its death throes.

What you see as a beautiful canyon, God sees as a crack in the earth.

Horrible blemishes, attesting to what sin can, and has, done to God's perfect creation.

Religions are the remnant of our primitive pre-scientific age culture.

That's bologna.

Thankfully the number of atheists is on the rise as education levels increase, and as science progresses and discovers the wonders of our Universe, which are far greater than any religious mind ever conceived.

And when heaven and earth flee at the Judgement Seat and leave their believers standing before a righteous and holy God, Who is about to judge them, what will you think then?

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

When you see a non-believer talk about how evidence pointed to this and evidence pointed to that, all God will have to do is lean forward and say what you guys say to us all the time: "Show me the evidence."

The non-believer will turn around, and to his horror, see nothing.

 

[CTD]

The strength of the doctrine of evolution consists, not in an experimental demonstration (for the subject is hardly accessible to this mode of proof), but in its general harmony with scientific thought. From contrast, moreover, it derives enormous relative strength. On the one side we have a theory (if it could with any propriety be so called) derived, as were the theories referred to at the beginning of this Address, not from the study of Nature, but from the observation of men—a theory which converts the Power whose garment is seen in the visible universe into an Artificer, fashioned after the human model, and acting by broken efforts, as man is seen to act. On the other side, we have the conception that all we see around us, and all we feel within us—the phenomena of physical nature as well as those of the human mind—have their unsearchable roots in a cosmical life, if I dare apply the term, an infinitesimal span of which is offered to the investigation of man.
-John Tyndall

Address Delivered Before the British Association Assembled at Belfast, With Additions (1874)

But what did he know? He was only an associate of practically every noteworthy evopusher in England... including both Darwin and Huxley.

 

[Miami Marlins 2012]

Science has advanced a lot since 1874. Since its obvious that your attacks on evolution are based on the evidence available in 1874....why bother replying? I mean, its not like we have discovered thousands of bones from our ancestor species and their tools since 1874, right? And its not like we have discovered a great number of transitional fossils in the fossil record since 1874, right? And its not like we have discovered the ability to date rocks and fossils since 1874, right? And the universe, its not like we have discovered many of the secrets of the universe since 1874, right?

Yeah, with the evidence available in 1874 I would have been an agnostic in regards to the Theory of Evolution. In 2011, I'd have to be a close minded religious person to disregard all the scientific knowledge that science has brought us.

 

[TemperateSeaIsland]

If that's what he said to you, then he must have misunderstood your question, eh?

You start with the Manual first, then the product.

I have an alarm clock that has sixteen buttons on it, with some of the buttons working in conjunction with other buttons.

I can get it to work to a point, but then I need the manual to go further.

Without the manual to guide me, I'd be forever figuring it out.

Wrong!

What is?

Believe me, FG, I know more than you think I do; creation is my forte.

I'm saying that the creation had nothing to do with science.

More appropriately, science had nothing to do with the creation.

Someone went off on a tangent and lost his way, didn't he?

It sure is -- I'm glad you noticed.

Could you backtrack and get back on the right road, please?

No.

But if the manual says that the alarm clock only has 4 buttons but you clearly see 16, which is wrong your investigation of the alarm or the manual?

 

[juvenissun]

I`ll keep this really really simple.

I haven't really had faith in creationism for years, and my education has only served to show me ever more clearly how foolish the whole thing is.
However, I keep running into people who insist it is the sole true faith. That Christianity has no meaning without it - or who insist in one way or another to try to use sophism or fallacious logic in an attempt to undermine the theory of evolution - which they claim they have no real problem with. Far be it from me to discourage intellectually honest criticism of the set paradigm. However, I see no reason to accept or give any respect to woolly thinking or shoddy logic. And frankly, I see more and more of that within Christian ranks. I have, I confess, reached a point where I m asking myself the following question:
What validity does faith have if it cannot survive science without attempting to undermine and explain it away? Oh sure someone will come along and say they aren`t, that they are just showing genuine and valid scepticism and criticism, as is proper for any intellectual. However, even from academics I am yet to see any sound criticism of the paradigm as a whole. Single points, yes. Of course. But even those who dismiss the paradigm as a whole do not appear to have backing for this, yet it would seem their faith requires them to dismiss or attempt to explain away reality itself.

Now, my faith is not threatened by science. If it were not for creationists I'd have no problem. No, it is threatened by Christians who apparently cannot accept science yet need to fight it at any bend and curve. Either openly, like AV, Dad etc. or through shallow excuses they might even believe themselves. Yet it always comes down to the same point it would seem: Faith does appear to be in conflict with creation. So, I am asking why should one believe? If Christianity had been about Christ's teachings I'd have had no problem at all, those are awesome. But as it appears to be about how the universe is wrong and subject to mental gymnastics which need not concern themselves with such troublesome things as hard data. So the question "What validity does faith have?" inevitably arises. Now, why should I exchange my cross for a brain, or why should I NOT do so? I asked a chaplain here, but he gave me a thoroughly unsatisfactory answer, to say the very least, more along the same worn out and shallow lines. So... What are your thoughts?

Creationism is a faith.

If one worked in science, then he can argue for creationism with science.

If a creationist does not care about science, then he is perfectly correct to reject any scientific argument which is against creationism. If you like to reason with those people, then you should not use science in your argument.

 

[Miami Marlins 2012]

Creationism is a faith.

If a creationist does not care about science, then he is perfectly correct to reject any scientific argument which is against creationism.

You are beginning to get it. Your faith is based on fairy tales, not science. Thank you for telling me not to waste my time talking science with you, since you do not care about science.

We are done here. There is nothing for me to discuss with someone who says that they don't care about science, only about what their faith says.

 

[Doveaman]

I used to be a Christian like you, until the Fundamentalist Evangelicals (ie. Young Earth Creationists) talked me out of my belief.

What belief did they talk you out of exactly?

the oldest living organism is actually a plant that is over 11,000 years old.

What plant is that?

 

[Miami Marlins 2012]

What plant is that?

I was wrong. The oldest organism in the World is not the 11,000 year old one I was referring to. As someone who is scientifically oriented, when I am wrong I admit it and embrace the corrected ideas. It used to be the oldest organism, but now there is one even older that has been discovered.

Meet the Pando Tree, with a root system daring back only 80,000 years.

The Oldest Trees on the Planet | Wired Science | Wired.com


And there is also the oldest individual clonal tree at 9,500 years old. Meet Old Tjikko

Old Tjikko - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Granted, these are clonal trees, meaning that the root system itself is many thousands of years old, while the trees that sprout out of them are not as old, but still, the root systems of these trees have been alive for longer than Creationists claim the Earth has existed.

I wonder why Kent and Eric Hovind don't talk about Pando Tree when they talk about the "science." After all, how did these clonal trees exist thousands of years before the Earth existed???