Faith Precedes Regeneration #6

[gmm4Jesus]

It doesn't say those who are alive (regenerate) hear. It says the dead will hear. The dead can hear.

Luke 8:12-14
Those along the path are the ones WHO HEAR, and then the devil comes and takes away the word FROM THEIR HEARTS, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when THEY HEAR IT, but they have no root. THEY BELIEVE for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

 

[AMR]

gmm,

You seem to have quite the focus on all matters anti-Calvinistic/Reformed. It seems most of the time you spend on forums is dedicated to this. What is it about your past or present that motivates this single-mindedness? Given the breadth of theological topics that can be discussed, your attention to this one specific area seems a wee bit odd.

Just curious.

 

[Skala]

It doesn't say those who are alive (regenerate) hear. It says the dead will hear. The dead can hear.

Luke 8:12-14
Those along the path are the ones WHO HEAR, and then the devil comes and takes away the word FROM THEIR HEARTS, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when THEY HEAR IT, but they have no root. THEY BELIEVE for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

The dead can hear.

Because they aren't physically dead, but spiritually dead.

They still have functioning ears with cochlea which detect the vibrations in sound waves and then send a signal along to the brain which the brain then interprets as sound.

DID YOU THINK CALVINISTS BELIEVED THE NON-ELECT DON'T HAVE COCHLEA OR SOMETHING!?!?!?!?!

 

[Rick Otto]

What? He's referring to those who already believe and have life?

He's stating the purpose of the recorded miracles... SO THEY MAY BELIEVE and HAVE LIFE. They wouldn't need life if he were referring to people who already believed, would they?

OK. I was wrong. John was addressing everyone, I see now.

But I was right in that no one knows or even cares about what he had to say unless God actively intervenes:

1Cor2:11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So John couldn't be heard by men without the Spirit of God.
In that sense, he WAS only addressing believers, who need renewing daily.

 

[gmm4Jesus]

Luke 8:13-14
Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

 

[Skala]

The spiritually dead still have cochlea.

 

[gmm4Jesus]

gmm,

You seem to have quite the focus on all matters anti-Calvinistic/Reformed. It seems most of the time you spend on forums is dedicated to this. What is it about your past or present that motivates this single-mindedness? Given the breadth of theological topics that can be discussed, your attention to this one specific area seems a wee bit odd.

Just curious.

Hey ARM,

Much of it has been generated because I had a run in with a local Calvinist radio show host, who took opportunity and the means to make private conversations public, and called for me over the air to step down from the pulpit because of my Arminian views - Over the air stating that I needed to be saved by accepting the gospel of Calvinism, etc.

Although it is not my only interest, (in fact it is an eschatological radio program that this guy has), but the experience certainly energized my focus.

Thanks for asking and blessings!

 

[gmm4Jesus]

The spiritually dead still have cochlea.

They do, and apparently God uses that as a means to have the Word get into the heart of a man, for he receives the Word into his heart with joy and believes for a while. It is also the heart from which the Word is taken by Satan.

Imagine that. A dead man hearing, receiving, and believing the Word...

And Calvinists say dead men can't do anything.

 

[Rick Otto]

They do, and apparently God uses that as a means to have the Word get into the heart of a man, for he receives the Word into his heart with joy and believes for a while. It is also the heart from which the Word is taken by Satan.

Imagine that. A dead man hearing, receiving, and believing the Word...

And Calvinists say dead men can't do anything.

Quite an imagination you have there.

 

[Skala]

They do, and apparently God uses that as a means to have the Word get into the heart of a man, for he receives the Word into his heart with joy and believes for a while. It is also the heart from which the Word is taken by Satan.

Imagine that. A dead man hearing, receiving, and believing the Word...

And Calvinists say dead men can't do anything.

Actually we say spiritually dead men can't do anything spiritually good or pleasing to God, because that's what Romans 8:8-9 says.

I guess God's grace in regeneration is necessary after all.

Praise the Lord he quickened me to life so that I would come to Jesus!

Salvation truly is by grace alone.
Not because I'm better than someone else (Arminianism)

 

[sdowney717]

Actually we say spiritually dead men can't do anything spiritually good or pleasing to God, because that's what Romans 8:8-9 says.

I guess God's grace in regeneration is necessary after all.

Praise the Lord he quickened me to life so that I would come to Jesus!

Salvation truly is by grace alone.
Not because I'm better than someone else (Arminianism)

Yes, on the face of it to believe in a man's superiority over another to salvation says they are,

smarter, more intelligent
better learners
wiser

While the Truth is not many wise, not many mighty, noble, that boasting in ourselves choosing for God is absolutely excluded.

1 Cor 1

26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.

 

[Rick Otto]

Actually we say spiritually dead men can't do anything spiritually good or pleasing to God, because that's what Romans 8:8-9 says.

I guess God's grace in regeneration is necessary after all.

Praise the Lord he quickened me to life so that I would come to Jesus!

Salvation truly is by grace alone.
Not because I'm better than someone else (Arminianism)

The someone else is the spiritualy dead.
1Cor2:14 re-iterates Rom 8:8-9
14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Actually we say spiritually dead men can't do anything spiritually good or pleasing to God, because that's what Romans 8:8-9 says.

No it doesn't say that. It means God is pleased by faith. On what basis would one think that verse applies to just spiritually dead men? Even believers can "shrink back", which displeases God very much.

Hebrews 10:38
But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.

The phrase "if he" refers back to "My righteous one". And what is he shrinking back from? "Living by faith", obviously.

So, Rom 8:8-9 applies to believers.

Further, Jesus was clear about what the spiritually dead can do.

John 5:25
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

The context of "will live" is with v.24-
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

So, the hearing includes the believing, and that by spiritually dead people.

I guess God's grace in regeneration is necessary after all.

That would be quite a wrong quess. They occur together. Unless one can prove that a person can be regenerated and not saved, or saved yet not regenerated. Does the Bible teach that?

Praise the Lord he quickened me to life so that I would come to Jesus!

Except He didn't. And there are no verses that say that either.

Salvation truly is by grace alone.

Amen. And through faith alone.

 

[AMR]

We are talking spiritually. A spiritually deaf person can not HEAR, they must be given hearing, eyes to see, UNDERSTANDING. The natural person DOES NOT understand. You can not give one verse that says "in their natural state" they "understood" the things of God. NOWHERE....

Exactly. Eze. 36:26 <--that's regeneration

 

[FreeGrace2]

Originally Posted by ronathanedwards View Post
"We are talking spiritually. A spiritually deaf person can not HEAR, they must be given hearing, eyes to see, UNDERSTANDING. The natural person DOES NOT understand. You can not give one verse that says "in their natural state" they "understood" the things of God. NOWHERE…."

Exactly. Eze. 36:26 <--that's regeneration

One problem…Jesus said this:

John 5:25
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Obviously, the dead CAN hear, contrary to ronathanedwards.

And, re: Eze 36: don't forget ch 18, which precedes 36.

 

[gmm4Jesus]

Ez 36:25 is before v26. They are made clean prior to a new heart. Do you know of another way of being made clean or righteous outside of imputed righteousness by faith? Faith comes prior to regeneration.