Faith Lacking Works is Dead

[Guojing]

Can you see a difference between someone obeying God's commands because they have faith in God to rightly guide them and someone obeying God's commands because they want to earn their justification in return for their efforts?

Yes of course there is a difference.

What I am saying is that Jews under the gospel of the kingdom had no choice, their salvation is tied to their works.

But I guess the good thing, if you can see it, is that they will receive rewards and salvation together after the 2nd coming of Christ, as Jesus said to them many times in Matthew 25.

For us saved under the Body of Christ, there is a very good possibility that many of us will end up only saved, but very little or no rewards, as perhaps Ravi Zechariah would be also found under, in 1 Corinthians 3

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

So my point is that in the Body of Christ, salvation is separated from rewards, but under the gospel of the kingdom, they are not.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

James was writing to the 12 tribes of Israel, and he wrote James before Paul wrote any of his epistles.

You can understand better his point in chapter 2 when you read Acts 21:20-25, which was years after Acts 15.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Under the gospel of the kingdom, Israel needed faith AND works in order to be saved (Matthew 5:17-19), so what he wrote in James 2:21-22 is valid. But as you can see from Acts 21:25, he was not referring to Gentile believers there.

The mystery of the cross and the Body of Christ was not revealed to him (Ephesians 3:9). The resurrected Christ never told Peter and the others that the Law of Moses have been nailed to the cross.

I am aware of Acts 21:20-25.
It was Paul's big mistake.
He should not have ignored the warnings in going to Jerusalem by the Spirit.
He dropped the ball and he was pressured to go through with an Old Testament purification rite that involved an animal sacrifice.

Anyways, according to BlueLetterBible, the epistle of James was written about 5 years after Acts 21 whereby Paul was shortly arrested after meeting with the Jewish apostles about the Law.

Source:
Acts and the Epistles Chronology - Study Resources

This lets us know that James would have known about Paul's writings. For does it not seem possible that James would counter argue against those who misunderstood Paul and twisted his words as Peter talks about in 2 Peter 3:15-16? For in 2 Peter 2, Peter refers to false teachers who have eyes full of adultery, and who cannot cease from sin (See: 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14). It makes sense that James would be arguing the same thing at this point in the church's history.

Furthermore, Paul says there is no difference between Jew and Gentile (Romans 10:12).

Besides, Paul taught that we need to live holy and or we need to have works of faith (after being saved by God's grace) as a part of salvation, too.

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13). Note: This is a call of the gospel (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:14).

“That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was."
(2 Timothy 3:1-9).

11 “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” (Titus 2:11-14).

 

[Guojing]

I am aware of Acts 21:20-25.
It was Paul's big mistake.
He should not have ignored the warnings in going to Jerusalem by the Spirit.
He dropped the ball and he was pressured to go through with an Old Testament purification rite that involved an animal sacrifice.

Anyways, according to BlueLetterBible, the epistle of James was written about 5 years after Acts 21 whereby Paul was shortly arrested after meeting with the Jewish apostles about the Law.

Source:
Acts and the Epistles Chronology - Study Resources

This lets us know that James would have known about Paul's writings. For does it not seem possible that James would counter arguing against those who misunderstood Paul and twisted his words as Peter talks about in 2 Peter 3:15-16? For in 2 Peter 2, Peter refers to false teachers who have eyes full of adultery, and who cannot cease from sin (See: 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14). It makes sense that James would be arguing the same thing at this point in the church's history.

Furthermore, Paul says there is no difference between Jew and Gentile (Romans 10:12).

Besides, Paul taught that we need to live holy and or we need to have works of faith (after being saved by God's grace) as a part of salvation, too.

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13). Note: This is a call of the gospel (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:14).

“That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was."
(2 Timothy 3:1-9).

11 “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” (Titus 2:11-14).

There is no difference between Jews and Gentiles in the Body of Christ yes.

But Israel is not the Body of Christ.

 

[Soyeong]

I believe Paul was referring to “Works ALONE Salvationism” (without God's grace) via by the Law of Moses. Seeing at the Jerusalem council they addressed the heresy of what I call, “Circumcision Salvationism” (Which is a belief that says you must first be circumcised in order to be initially saved instead of having faith in Jesus). For if a person makes circumcision the basis of their salvation and not Jesus, they are trying to earn their salvation by works alone and they are not building upon God's grace. For if we mess up on rare occasion, do we do a work to offset that sin? No. We confess our sins to Jesus Christ and throw ourselves before His mercy. For if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). But if we believe we are saved by Works Alone, then we are trying to earn salvation. This is what I believe Paul is talking about. No Christian I know of believes in being saved by Works Alone without God's grace. Paul was arguing against those who thought they had to be circumcised in order to be initially saved instead of by God's grace. But people ignore this in the context because they want a simple way of salvation and they do not want to worry much about sin or in doing what is good always. For if we are saved no matter what we do, there really is not much incentive to live holy according to 2 Corinthians 7:1.

In Romans 3:21-22, the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through faith in Christ, so this has always been the one and only means of becoming righteous. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, so that is itself part of the content of God's gift of salvation and there has never been a means of salvation without God's grace. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God and was a righteous man, so he was taught how to obey God's law by grace and was declared righteous because he obeyed through faith, which means he was saved through the same one and only means as everyone else. God had no need to provide an alternative and unobtainable means of becoming saved by earning it through our obedience to the Law of Moses, so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of why we should obey it.

Obedience to the Mosaic Law can be done for reasons other than earning our salvation, especially because it was never given as a means of doing that, so verses that speak against earning our salvation should not be mistaken as being against our salvation requiring works for some other reason. I can't tell you how many times I have stated that we should obey the Law of Moses and people have responded by arguing saying that we can't earn our righteousness by obeying it even through I did not state that we should obey the Law of Moses in order to earn our righteousness.

In Acts 15:1, a group nonbelievers that came from Judea was arguing that Gentiles needed to become circumcised in order to earn their salvation, but they were countered by a group of believers that rose up from the Pharisees in Acts 15:4 who argued that Gentiles needed to become circumcised and obey the Law of Moses as a matter of faith, not in order to earn their salvation. So no one there was arguing for the position that Gentiles did need to obey the Law of Moses.

 

[Ceallaigh]

In Jeremiah 9:24, those who experientially know God knows that He delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so delighting in testifying about those and other aspects of His nature through our obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to gain experiential knowledge of God, and of Christ, who is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through living in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law. The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does the nature of the Mosaic Law, which is because it is God's instructions for how to testify about His nature, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23).

For example, when we do what is righteous in obedience to the Mosaic Law, we are testifying about the righteousness of Christ and are thereby gaining experiential knowledge of who he is, or in other words we are growing in a relationship with him. Likewise, in 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey his commands are liars an the truth is not in them, and in 1 John 3:4, sin is the transgression of the Mosaic Law, and those who continue to practice sin have neither seen or known him. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter into eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, in John 6:40, those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, and in John 17:3, eternal life is experientially knowing God and Jesus, so again obedience to God's commandments is what it looks like to believe in him and is the way to grow in a relationship with him.

So while we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God with the same nature and therefore the same laws for how to testify about his nature and the same way for how to grow in a relationship with Him. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it looks like to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20), so yes we are under the same laws as before the cross.

However, I don't think that it is a black and white either we know Jesus or we don't based on whether or not we obey all of God's laws, but rather the degree to which someone obeys the Mosaic Law is the degree to which they have gained experiential knowledge of him, though there is a line somewhere where Jesus will tell people to depart from him even through they thought they were doing good things in His name, through I think that has more to do with missing that the goal of obeying the Mosaic Law is to know Christ (Romans 9:30-10:4), which is through teaching us how to testify about his nature. In Philippians 3:8, Paul had been in the same boat as those in Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 23:23, Romans 9:30-10:4, and John 5:39-40, where he had been obeying the law while missing that the goal of the law is to know Christ, so he counted it all as rubbish.

I'm sorry, I can't figure that out.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is no difference between Jews and Gentiles in the Body of Christ yes.

But Israel is not the Body of Christ.

I am aware that the Jewish nation is not the church or the bride. But to say that they will not be a part of the body one day is false (if that is what you are suggesting). The Jews will repent as a nation shortly before the return of Jesus Christ, and they will be added to the body of Christ. See John 17.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In Romans 3:21-22, the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through faith in Christ, so this has always been the one and only means of becoming righteous. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, so that is itself part of the content of God's gift of salvation and there has never been a means of salvation without God's grace. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God and was a righteous man, so he was taught how to obey God's law by grace and was declared righteous because he obeyed through faith, which means he was saved through the same one and only means as everyone else. God had no need to provide an alternative and unobtainable means of becoming saved by earning it through our obedience to the Law of Moses, so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of why we should obey it.

Obedience to the Mosaic Law can be done for reasons other than earning our salvation, especially because it was never given as a means of doing that, so verses that speak against earning our salvation should not be mistaken as being against our salvation requiring works for some other reason. I can't tell you how many times I have stated that we should obey the Law of Moses and people have responded by arguing saying that we can't earn our righteousness by obeying it even through I did not state that we should obey the Law of Moses in order to earn our righteousness.

In Acts 15:1, a group nonbelievers that came from Judea was arguing that Gentiles needed to become circumcised in order to earn their salvation, but they were countered by a group of believers that rose up from the Pharisees in Acts 15:4 who argued that Gentiles needed to become circumcised and obey the Law of Moses as a matter of faith, not in order to earn their salvation. So no one there was arguing for the position that Gentiles did need to obey the Law of Moses.

That is great you don't believe that obeying the Law of Moses is for salvation. I don't believe that, either. For the Law of Moses is no longer in effect.

Here are a list of verses showing us the Old Law is no more:

"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).

”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4).

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).

“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).

"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).

9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).

16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17).

”And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament…” (Hebrews 9:15).

27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).

50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).

8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).

7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).

“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14).​

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).​

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).​

The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).​

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).​

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17).​

In conclusion:

You sort of have to look at the Old Covenant (Old Testament) as one contract, and the New Covenant (New Testament) as another contract. It's kind of like a contract when you buy a house. If you did not like certain things in the contract, you could ask them to make some changes in the contract. If they agreed to the changes, you would then go by the new contract, and the old contract for the house would be discarded. There may be some similar things between the old contract, and the new contract, but you stick with the new contract in your dealing with buying the house. Meaning: This is why we seek to follow the New Covenant (New Testament) primarily even though there are certain laws that have carried over from the Old Covenant (Old Testament). We are clearly not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal. We follow the commands that come from Jesus and His followers.

 

[Guojing]

I am aware that the Jewish nation is not the church or the bride. But to say that they will not be a part of the body one day is false (if that is what you are suggesting). The Jews will repent as a nation shortly before the return of Jesus Christ, and they will be added to the body of Christ. See John 17.

Israel's inheritance is a physical land on Earth, that was promised to Abraham in Genesis 17:8.

For us in the Body of Christ, our inheritance and promises lies in the heaven. (Ephesians 1:3)

So don't mix the 2, we have separate destinies.

 

[Ceallaigh]

This thread is perhaps the most complicated and convoluted thing I've ever read.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Israel's inheritance is a physical land on Earth, that was promised to Abraham in Genesis 17:8.

For us in the Body of Christ, our inheritance and promises lies in the heaven. (Ephesians 1:3)

So don't mix the 2, we have separate destinies.

I understand that the journey along the way is different. I believe that the Raptured saints will be in Heaven, while select Jews and those who were beheaded for Christ during the Tribulation will go through the Millennium or the 1,000 year reign of Christ. But in the end, every faithful believer throughout time will be upon the New Earth after the Millennium and the Judgment. They will all be one with Christ and the Father. Just read John 17.

 

[Guojing]

I understand that the journey along the way is different. I believe that the Raptured saints will be in Heaven, while select Jews and those who were beheaded for Christ during the Tribulation will go through the Millennium or the 1,000 year reign of Christ. But in the end, every faithful believer throughout time will be upon the New Earth after the Millennium and the Judgment. They will all be one with Christ and the Father. Just read John 17.

You cannot find anything about the Body of Christ in John, it was a mystery that hidden in God until the ascended Christ revealed it to apostle Paul (Ephesians 3:9)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You cannot find anything about the Body of Christ in John, it was a mystery that hidden in God until the ascended Christ revealed it to apostle Paul (Ephesians 3:9)

18 “As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.” (John 17:18-23).

 

[Soyeong]

Yes of course there is a difference.

What I am saying is that Jews under the gospel of the kingdom had no choice, their salvation is tied to their works.

But I guess the good thing, if you can see it, is that they will receive rewards and salvation together after the 2nd coming of Christ, as Jesus said to them many times in Matthew 25.

For us saved under the Body of Christ, there is a very good possibility that many of us will end up only saved, but very little or no rewards, as perhaps Ravi Zechariah would be also found under, in 1 Corinthians 3

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

So my point is that in the Body of Christ, salvation is separated from rewards, but under the gospel of the kingdom, they are not.

There is not a separate means of salvation for Jews and Gentiles, but rather the Bible always associates faith with works and a breaking faith with disobedience. The purpose of doing good works is to express our faith and it is by that same faith that we are declared righteous, so verses that speak against earning our salvation by our works should not be mistaken as speaking against our salvation requiring works as an expression of faith. In Matthew 24:12-14, Jesus prophesies that the Gospel of the Kingdom would be proclaimed to all nations, so it is also for Gentiles. In any case, John 12:46-50 does not give Gentiles any room to disregard anything that Jesus taught.

 

[Soyeong]

I'm sorry, I can't figure that out.

Sorry if I was not clear. Is there anything specific that I could clarify?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Many believe that Paul taught to believe in Jesus alone to be saved;
But this is not true. For Paul also says...

1. “They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16). (Note: To know God is a part of salvation (See: John 17:3, and 1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 5:12).
2. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4). (Note: James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble).
3. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
4. “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
5. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).
6. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
7. “But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
8. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
9. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).
10. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).
11. “...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).
12. “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).
13. “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).
14. “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4).
15. “But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.” (Ephesians 5:3-7).

 

[Ceallaigh]

Sorry if I was not clear. Is there anything specific that I could clarify?

I think you did below

Obedience to the Mosaic Law can be done for reasons other than earning our salvation, especially because it was never given as a means of doing that, so verses that speak against earning our salvation should not be mistaken as being against our salvation requiring works for some other reason. I can't tell you how many times I have stated that we should obey the Law of Moses and people have responded by arguing saying that we can't earn our righteousness by obeying it even through I did not state that we should obey the Law of Moses in order to earn our righteousness.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Many believe that Paul taught to believe in Jesus alone to be saved;
But this is not true. For Paul also says...

1. “They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16). (Note: To know God is a part of salvation (See: John 17:3, and 1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 5:12).
2. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4). (Note: James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble).
3. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
4. “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
5. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).
6. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
7. “But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
8. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
9. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).
10. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).
11. “...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).
12. “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).
13. “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).
14. “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4).
15. “But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.” (Ephesians 5:3-7).

Many believe something that's simple and direct to the point. Others teach something that's complicated and all over the place.

 

[Guojing]

There is not a separate means of salvation for Jews and Gentiles, but rather the Bible always associates faith with works and a breaking faith with disobedience. The purpose of doing good works is to express our faith and it is by that same faith that we are declared righteous, so verses that speak against earning our salvation by our works should not be mistaken as speaking against our salvation requiring works as an expression of faith. In Matthew 24:12-14, Jesus prophesies that the Gospel of the Kingdom would be proclaimed to all nations, so it is also for Gentiles. In any case, John 12:46-50 does not give Gentiles any room to disregard anything that Jesus taught.

I was distinguishing between Israel and the Body of Christ, not Jews and Gentiles.

 

[Guojing]

18 “As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.” (John 17:18-23).

You are trying to force the Body of Christ into the they in that passage.

Peter preached at Pentecost and about 3000 more were saved, so those new ones are in the "they"

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Many believe something that's simple and direct to the point. Others teach something that's complicated and all over the place.

Salvation is not complicated if you understand it.

When I read the Scriptures, I see 4 different aspects of salvation described.

#1. Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).

#2. Justification (Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Justification is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Justification is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Justification will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For Justification verses, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#3. Sanctification (The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

#4. Glorification (The Future Salvation of the Truly Faithful Believer).
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
Glorification is when God takes the believer home to be with Him in His kingdom and He gives Him a new resurrected body that is not tainted by sin. This process of salvation (in being taken home) is a by product automatically for those believers who properly applied Justification and Sanctification to their lives (For Glorification verses, see: 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Romans 13:11, Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 9:28).


Conclusion:

Justification, and then Sanctification is what we as believers need to be focused on. For if we are justified, and sanctified (which is only made possible by the Provisional Atonement), then we will be glorified.