Faith in Faith or Faith in Christ?

[PastorJoey]

I'm not a Calvinist. Just a bible student who believes salvation is by grace.

Dave just curious, who are your top 3 teachers you feed from the most? What church do you attend? Pastor?

 

[Dave L]

Dave just curious, who are your top 3 teachers you feed from the most? What church do you attend? Pastor?

I have no favorite teachers but have learned from many denominations.

 

[PastorJoey]

I have no favorite teachers but have learned from many denominations.

So you have no teachers you might recommend me? ...I have learned from many denominations as well, but what church do you attend regularly? Who is your Pastor?

 

[Simon the Tanner]

Sounds kinda like a universalist to me. I mean, if you have an extreme view on sovereignty it leads to 1 of 2 conclusions .... either God wants everybody saved and therefore they'll all be saved, or God wants some people to burn in hell so that's their fate. Universalism and Calvinism. The Bible teaches free will and consequences for our choices.

 

[now faith]

Belief in Christ comes from experiencing him in your heart. If you must choose to believe it is because you don't.

A good example of a false dichotomy position.

 

[now faith]

Characteristics of those who believe are not conditions to meet. If I say whosoever believes will be saved, it is simply a way to recognize those whom God saved. But you read into it a condition that does not exist.

That's because you are using circular logic to enforce your belief.
You may state the whosoever to qualify those whom God saved.

 

[now faith]

I'm not a Calvinist. Just a bible student who believes salvation is by grace.

How do you reconcile Ephesians?

Ephesians 2: 8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

John?

John 3: 16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God's Word is full of choices for mankind.


Deuteronomy 30: 19. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

You are confusing God's love with irrisistable grace, and freewill with predestination.

What a discount of the Blood of Christ, if we had no choice we would not have needed a Saviour.

This doctrine was one man's view of God.
Was Calvin's teaching correct, or is God's Word correct?
Study the events at Geneva that happened when Calvin was disagreed with.
Who was His mentor that influenced his teaching ?
Calvin plagerized his mentors work as well.

It is nothing personal, I have friends who are Calvinest.
You are proslizing one of the oldest religious debates since the Reformation.
What do you think of John MacArthur?

 

[now faith]

Even the plowing of the wicked is sin.

“An high look, and a proud heart, And the plowing of the wicked, is sin.” (Proverbs 21:4)

But wait there are more proverbs we can backhand toward each other!

Proverbs 6: 16. These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17. A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18. An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19. A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

 

[Dave L]

How do you reconcile Ephesians?

Ephesians 2: 8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

John?

John 3: 16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God's Word is full of choices for mankind.


Deuteronomy 30: 19. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

You are confusing God's love with irrisistable grace, and freewill with predestination.

What a discount of the Blood of Christ, if we had no choice we would not have needed a Saviour.

This doctrine was one man's view of God.
Was Calvin's teaching correct, or is God's Word correct?
Study the events at Geneva that happened when Calvin was disagreed with.
Who was His mentor that influenced his teaching ?
Calvin plagerized his mentors work as well.

It is nothing personal, I have friends who are Calvinest.
You are proslizing one of the oldest religious debates since the Reformation.
What do you think of John MacArthur?

Jesus told the Pharisees he did not die for them and this is why they did not believe in him.

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” (John 10:11)


“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” (John 10:26)

 

[Dave L]

That's because you are using circular logic to enforce your belief.
You may state the whosoever to qualify those whom God saved.

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You must have the Holy Spirit before you can have faith.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

 

[Dave L]

So you have no teachers you might recommend me? ...I have learned from many denominations as well, but what church do you attend regularly? Who is your Pastor?

I do not presently attend church for obvious reasons. But I devote each day to bible study and prayer. I do not think any denomination has all of the truth. But all of the truth exists throughout Christendom for those wanting to look beyond the limits of their own denominations.

 

[now faith]

Jesus told the Pharisees he did not die for them and this is why they did not believe in him.

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” (John 10:11)




“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I

said unto you.” (John 10:26)

And some how they were predetermined not to follow Christ?

Well he loved the Pharisees. As well.

John 3: 4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every ones born of the Spirit. -

 

[Dave L]

And some how they were predetermined not to follow Christ?

Well he loved the Pharisees. As well.

John 3: 4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every ones born of the Spirit. -

Paul was a Pharisee. But Jesus told the group of Pharisees in John 10 the reason they did not believe was because they were not his sheep. And he gave his life for the sheep.

 

[Simon the Tanner]

Excuse me, but that's bass ackwards. They weren't His sheep because they rejected Him. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name" (John 1:12)

 

[Dave L]

Excuse me, but that's bass ackwards. They weren't His sheep because they rejected Him. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name" (John 1:12)

No, he said they do not believe BECAUSE they are not his sheep.

 

[hhodgson]

No, he said they do not believe BECAUSE they are not his sheep.

For the viewers... the following notes will have a better meaning of what's being presented above, which is bass-ackwards as Simon said above (Post 94)... (John 10:26) is a perfect scripture example "to rightly divide the Word" that is being misinterpreted by many.

2 Timothy 2:15
"Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."​

So let's backup (below) a little to verse (22) to verse (42) that paints a better picture of the actual context here which is, "You believe NOT" (John 10:26) is often cited by Calvinists as a clear statement (for them) about Unconditional Election and how people do NOT become God’s “sheep” because they believe in Jesus; instead, they believe in Jesus because they were ALREADY God’s sheep...

(We ALL know that there is only ONE WAY to become a born-again Christian and become His sheep.)

Romans 10:9-10
"If YOU confess (speak) with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and BELIEVE in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU will be saved. For it is with your (heart) that you (believe) and are justified, and your profession of faith, is made unto salvation."​

JESUS, SON OF GOD (you believe NOT)​

John 10:22-42
Verse (22) “And it was the feast of the dedication at Jerusalem: it was winter; and Jesus was walking in the temple in Solomon’s porch. The Jews therefore came round about Him, and said unto Him, How long will you hold us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you believe NOT: the works that I do in My Father’s name, these bear witness of Me. (verse 26) But you believe NOT, because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, which hath given them unto Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "many good works have I showed you from the Father; for which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews answered Him, For a good work we stone you not, but for blasphemy; and because that You, being a man, makes Yourself God. Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods? If He called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), say you of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, You blasphemed; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do NOT the works of My Father, don't believe Me. (verse 38) But if I do them, though you don't believe NOT on Me, believe the works: that YOU may (know and understand) that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father." They sought again to take Him: and He went forth out of their hand. And He went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John was at the first baptizing; and there He abode. And many came unto Him; and they said, John indeed did no sign: but all things whatsoever John spoke of this man were true. And many believed on Him there.”

Expositor's Greek Testament
(John 10:26). “But you on your part do not believe”—the reason being that you are not of the number of my sheep. Had you been of my sheep you must have believed; because my sheep have these two characteristics, (John 10:27) They hear my voice and they follow me: (John 10:28) and these characteristics meet a twofold response in me, “I know them” and “I give them eternal life.”

Jesus is saying the reason they did not believe was because they were not his sheep. (IOW), One must believe (first) in ORDER to be His sheep. Jesus said, "MY" sheep hear my voice. (Meaning)...

Hebrews 4:2
"They (heard) the Word, (as with us), BUT it did not profit them because of not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."​

So, Jesus in John 10:38 said they didn't believe because of their NOT knowing and NOT understanding because of their unbelief. Hebrews 4:2 speaks for itself.

 

[now faith]

No, he said they do not believe BECAUSE they are not his sheep.

Any person that rejects Christ could qualify as not being one of His sheep.

All mankind yesterday, today and tomorrow,must first believe in Christ to be considered His Sheep.
Taking a statement out of context, and building a doctrine around it, is a gross misrepresentation of God's Word.

 

[now faith]

Quote from hhodgson :

So let's backup (below) a little to verse (22) to verse (42) that paints a better picture of the actual context here which is, "You believe NOT" (John 10:26) is often cited by Calvinists as a clear statement (for them) about Unconditional Election and how people do NOTbecome God’s “sheep” because they believe in Jesus; instead, they believe in Jesus because they were ALREADY God’s sheep...
Unquote.
Wow nice Job explaining the context Sir.
It is not easy to prove or explain a logical conclusion, most would not need this.


You believe not, is a subordinate clause, that can only be paired with :
You do believe.

So is yes and no.

 

[now faith]

No, he said they do not believe BECAUSE they are not his sheep.

You Know it would be impossible to trust a creator who creates life to torment it.
This life is given to us By God what we do with it is our choice.

Calvinism does not consider the love of God nor the personal relationships given by the Holy Spirit.
I wonder how Calvinest know for sure they have salvation?
That is a common preaching among Calvinest, the idea that 80%of people who think they have salvation do not.
Pound on the podium point a finger asking are you the elect?

 

[Simon the Tanner]

Many people read the word "elect" and see the word "select", and assume that God chooses who will be saved and who won't. That violates the doctrine of free will that is seen from Genesis to Revelation. The elect become the elect by believing when they hear the Word preached. "Many are called but few are chosen." (Mat. 22:14) The chosen are the elect, but they aren't chosen because God chooses them. They're the chosen because they believed on Jesus. That's how God chose to justify them.