Faith and Works

[dies-l]

It is not uncommon that an evangelical will accuse another Christian as believing in "salvation by works," hinting, if not outright saying that that the other is therefore not really a Christian. I am wondering where this distinction comes from. What exactly is "faith" according to such a viewpoint and how is this separable from "works"?

I will grant that I do believe that the Bible is clear that God is not keeping a tally of our good and our bad to determine who will be saved and who will not. But, at the same time, I do not see "faith" and "works" as completely separable as modern evangelicalism seems to suggest. I am interested in hearing opinions on this topic. Thank you.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Our salvation is by works. The works of our Lord, of course. I suppose it's in the mindset, so nobody holds themselves "higher in the faith" for achievements. It is a work of God that everyone is saved, not by our own works.

 

[Angel4Truth]

It is not uncommon that an evangelical will accuse another Christian as believing in "salvation by works," hinting, if not outright saying that that the other is therefore not really a Christian. I am wondering where this distinction comes from. What exactly is "faith" according to such a viewpoint and how is this separable from "works"?

I will grant that I do believe that the Bible is clear that God is not keeping a tally of our good and our bad to determine who will be saved and who will not. But, at the same time, I do not see "faith" and "works" as completely separable as modern evangelicalism seems to suggest. I am interested in hearing opinions on this topic. Thank you.

Faith is a gift from God - all men are given a measure of it. If we choose to excercise it then it grows if not it wastes away. We are given enough of a measure to result in using it to reach out to Christ in the acceptance of the offer of salvation.

Romans 12:3. For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

2:Timothy 1: 9. who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

Romans 4
1. What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2. For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something of which to boast, but not before God.
3. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.''
4. Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6. just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7. "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
8. blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.''

Jesus was asked what works were needed to be saved ? John 6:28. Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?''
29. Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.''

Faith which is a gift of God is used to believe in God by being excersiced and results in salvation through the grace of God - not of ourselves or any earthy work.

Works that are worthy of God are those performed BY God through the indwelt Spirit of God in the believer. We can't take credit for works worthy of God.

Unfortunately some people believe that they can earn salvation through "good" works but the true determination of a "good" work is one that is Spirit performed and glorifies God.

Jesus asked when called "good" why do you call me good - there is none good but God.

Obviously then what humans determine to be a good work and what God deems it to be aren't the same.

Works worthy of God can only be performed by a believer since the only works worthy of God are those performed through the believer by the Spirit of God and whose spirit one doesnt possess unless they have been saved.

Which corresponds to this: ames 2J17. Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18. But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works.'' Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe and tremble!
20. But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22. Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23. And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.'' And he was called the friend of God.
24. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

The reason that faith without works is dead is because saving faith - that which was given by God and excerised unto salvation - results in the indwelt Spirit of God.

If the Spirit is present - then there will be works of God being performed. No Spirit - the faith and the works are dead. Justification is the evidence of the Spirit working in the believer. That the faith offered to God was that which was given by God and not an empty claim but that which resulted in saving grace and a changed heart and life (which required repentance)

Salvation and Justification arent both the same things.

I hope this helps.

 

[YourChild]

We are saved by what Christ did on the Cross..nothing we do in this life time can save our souls...

Good works after being saved is the product of being saved.

How can any saved soul sit around and not share the Good News of Salvation to others around them? If salvation means so much to a saved soul, then he/she, by default, should want to share the Gospel with other dying souls.

 

[drewybug]

WHOA!!! ANGEL4Truth....thank you

 

[plmarquette]

It is not uncommon that an evangelical will accuse another Christian as believing in "salvation by works," hinting, if not outright saying that that the other is therefore not really a Christian. I am wondering where this distinction comes from. What exactly is "faith" according to such a viewpoint and how is this separable from "works"?

I will grant that I do believe that the Bible is clear that God is not keeping a tally of our good and our bad to determine who will be saved and who will not. But, at the same time, I do not see "faith" and "works" as completely separable as modern evangelicalism seems to suggest. I am interested in hearing opinions on this topic. Thank you.

check out the second chapter of James... what are you doing with your faith ? is there evidence in your life of your faith within you ?

matthew 28.18-19 what are you doing to fulfill the > commision .... prayer, financial support, going into the ministry

how well do you love others... enough to sit down with them tell them you love them and ask why they choose to live their lives in such a manner that death will come prematurly ....

 

[billwald]

All of you who think you are working your way into Heaven, speak up. If no one is, then either you are all "reformed" or the argument is a straw man.

 

[E.C.]

It is not uncommon that an evangelical will accuse another Christian as believing in "salvation by works," hinting, if not outright saying that that the other is therefore not really a Christian. I am wondering where this distinction comes from. What exactly is "faith" according to such a viewpoint and how is this separable from "works"?

I will grant that I do believe that the Bible is clear that God is not keeping a tally of our good and our bad to determine who will be saved and who will not. But, at the same time, I do not see "faith" and "works" as completely separable as modern evangelicalism seems to suggest. I am interested in hearing opinions on this topic. Thank you.

In this context, faith is merely belief and works merely doing good things.

We earn our spots with God by both faith and works (Remember that chapter in Matthew? When I was hungry, you gave me to eat...).

Yet above the two it is God's Grace that determines everything.

 

[JonF]

It is not uncommon that an evangelical will accuse another Christian as believing in "salvation by works," hinting, if not outright saying that that the other is therefore not really a Christian. I am wondering where this distinction comes from. What exactly is "faith" according to such a viewpoint and how is this separable from "works"?

I will grant that I do believe that the Bible is clear that God is not keeping a tally of our good and our bad to determine who will be saved and who will not. But, at the same time, I do not see "faith" and "works" as completely separable as modern evangelicalism seems to suggest. I am interested in hearing opinions on this topic. Thank you.

I agree! They are connected, and that connection between works / faith / grace is clearly spelt out – see Ephesians 2:8-10.

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Ask yourself, according to these verses:

What is it that actually saves us?
What is the process of that salvation, or the means of salvation?
What is our response to salvation?

 

[JonF]

We earn our spots with God by both faith and works (Remember that chapter in Matthew? When I was hungry, you gave me to eat...).

NO! We are saved BY grace THROUGH faith TO DO good works. That is clearly spelt out – see my above post.

About your Mathew comment: Causality isn’t a conjunctive relationship – so that verse doesn’t argue what you are suggesting it does

 

[E.C.]

NO! We are saved BY grace THROUGH faith TO DO good works. That is clearly spelt out – see my above post.

About your Mathew comment: Causality isn’t a conjunctive relationship – so that verse doesn’t argue what you are suggesting it does

That's a bit too technical.

God's Grace is completely misunderstood in Western Christianity, so I don't expect anyone to understand what I'm saying.

That and I have this uncanny habit to not respond to posts that have all caps at unneeded places since it suggests a subconscious sort of closed-mindedness.

 

[JonF]

That's a bit too technical.

God's Grace is completely misunderstood in Western Christianity, so I don't expect anyone to understand what I'm saying.

How is it to technical when I quoted a verse saying pretty much word for word the same exact thing?

 

[capnator]

Salvation is by Grace through faith. We accept the grace through faith. True faith will produce works(fruit)

Eph 2:10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


2Ti 3:17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Tts 1:16They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate

Tts 2:7In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine [shewing] uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Tts 2:14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Tts 3:8[This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Hbr 10:24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:


Jhn 14:15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jhn 14:21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him

Jhn 15:10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Jo 5:2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1Jo 5:3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2Jo 1:6And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

James 2: 14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[ghs1994]

It is not uncommon that an evangelical will accuse another Christian as believing in "salvation by works," hinting, if not outright saying that that the other is therefore not really a Christian. I am wondering where this distinction comes from. What exactly is "faith" according to such a viewpoint and how is this separable from "works"?

I will grant that I do believe that the Bible is clear that God is not keeping a tally of our good and our bad to determine who will be saved and who will not. But, at the same time, I do not see "faith" and "works" as completely separable as modern evangelicalism seems to suggest. I am interested in hearing opinions on this topic. Thank you.

regeneration, redemption, adoption, the act of being saved, etc.; - are all parts of saving faith. this is one type of faith i believe.

the second type of faith is our actions. our actions give evidence to the saving faith. they are inseperable entities even tho they are also seperate. sometimes it feels like trying to understand the trinity.

our actions aren't just about our good deeds, but obedience to all the commands of Jesus - such as repentance, prayer, fellowship, bible study, evangelism, etc.

i do believe we are saved by faith apart from works (romans 2:28), but faith without deeds is no faith at all (james 2:26). so how i understand it is this: if we are saved, then there will be a noticeable change from our old self to the new creation (2 cor 5:17).

that's how i understand it. i hope it helps.