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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Faith and works not that hard to figure out.
- Thread starter redleghunter
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Hmmm, you seem to subscribe to the Semipelagianism heresy if you deny you can only be saved without the works of Jesus Christ.
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Thomas Cooper
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Hi, I’m back, sorry I took so long to get back to you.
I’m sorry but what scripture do you speak of? The canon assembled by the Church in 393? If you trust the Church’s authority to assemble and deem those books to be inspired, why don’t you trust her authority to interpret them? Why don’t you trust her authority to respectfully judge certain traditions to be true as her sacred scripture recommends? This is either circular reasoning or a terrible misunderstanding of history.
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Thomas Cooper
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Hello, and thank you for commenting. While I agree with the hypocrisy, let’s try to remain a bit for respectful of others’ views. Thank you.
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I find your statements to be ironic, especially your comment about being more interested in retaining their pride and saving face and humbling themselves to the truth. That statement is the epitome of irony! Performance based works salvation is motivated by PRIDE and it's you who completely ignores scripture and disregards anything that refutes salvation by works and eternal IN-security. In regards to John 15, I have thoroughly explained my position to you in multiple posts, yet the truth continues to go right over your head.
I will explain it once more before I shake the dust off my shoes and move on. The "fruitless branches" experience only an external, superficial connection with Jesus as the vine. As I shared with you that Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - Two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh peron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.
The "fruitless" branches, therefore, are not saved and never were. The warning is for them. In John 10:27-29, Jesus said in no uncertain terms that those He gives eternal life will never perish. In John 15:6, Jesus said that the fruitless branches will be "thrown away" (a form of the Greek verb ballo, "to cast," together with the adverb exo, "out"). But in John 6:37, Jesus uses identical terminology and said, "All that the Father gives me shall come to me, and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out" (ekballo with exo). Do you really believe that what Jesus denied could ever happen to a believer in John 6:37, will happen in contradiction to John 15:6? In John 6:37, Jesus said - All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. but in John 15:6, He says that the fruitless branches will be cast out.
*Surely Jesus is not guilty of this most obvious contradiction.
This is where you need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine. Abiding in Christ is not the condition for becoming a child of God, but is the consequence or the evidence of being a child of God. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. We become a Christian by faith in Christ and the evidence is that we abide or remain in Him. Authentic faith in Christ displays its true character by producing in the heart of the individual a persevering attachment to Jesus and God does not forsake His saints/they are preserved forever. (Psalm 37:28)
In John 8:31, Jesus said - If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine. Those who do not continue were not truly disciples of Jesus. I hope and pray that something I and other believers have shared with you has at least planted a seed that one day will be watered and lead you to the truth. I will continue to pray for you.
The problem is people misunderstand the difference between justification and salvation. Justification means to be made right with God. We are justified by faith this is no way means that we retain salvation because we were once justified. Jesus’ message is clear that if we abide in Him we will produce fruit. Abiding is not an automatic result of being justified which is why Jesus said to His 11 faithful apostles “Abide in me”. If abiding was automatic for true believers there would’ve been no point in telling them to abide. It would be like telling a rock thrown in the air to fall or telling someone not to jump so high that they hit the sun. Who cares what some guy said about there being two types of branches? Where is that supported in the scriptures? Ok John 6:37 yup I’m very familiar with it. You need to look at the definition of the second word “comes” it is only used in the present and imperfect tense which means only in the present or continuous tense. So God will certainly not cast out anyone who is presently or continuously coming to Him. It does not mean He will certainly not cast out anyone who has ever came to Him. John 10:27-29 has no uncertain terms? People who advocate salvation by faith without works always fail to see verse 27 for what it says. My sheep hear my voice, I know them and they follow. What does He mean by follow? Surely he doesn’t mean to move or travel behind. It means we follow His example and His commandments. We disagree on the definition of pisteuo or believe. To me the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul is pretty straight forward. It means we are driven by an inner sense of conviction pertaining to right and wrong. You still never addressed my post pertaining to Ephesians explaining how Paul indicates that children of God can fall from grace once again becoming sons of disobedience resulting in receiving God’s wrath.
“No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.”
1 John 4:12-13 NASB
The sentence actually starts in verse 12. If you notice John 15 gives the same message.
“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.”
John 15:10-12 NASB
Love is the source of fruit. If you love others you will produce fruit. If you love others you will help them. This same example is also seen in Matthew 25:31-46. If the goats had love for others like the sheep did they would’ve done good works. The reason they were condemned was because they didn’t have love for others and the result of not having love was they didn’t produce fruit. They didn’t help others.
Your quote of John 8:31 again in John 15:8
“My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.”
John 15:8 NASB
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The entire book of Romans is one letter or epistle to the Romans which must be read as one argument - all parts fitting together to explain the whole doctrine of faith as it relates to original sin, repentance, baptism, grace, judgment, salvation, atonement, the Law, election, Spiritual regeneration, Spiritual gifts, and the Christian life. Paul covers a lot of territory in this letter to the Romans organized into isolated topics; yet, all parts describing one reality - the redemption we possess in Christ through faith in Christ Jesus because of the Gospel.
Romans 3 describes that we personally receive the atonement by faith in Christ Jesus
Romans 3:21-26
21 But now apart from the law, a righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all those who believe. For there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God sent to be an atoning sacrifice, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God’s forbearance; 26 to demonstrate his righteousness at this present time; that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 4
23 Now it was not written that it was accounted to him for his sake alone, 24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be accounted, who believe in him who raised Jesus, our Lord, from the dead, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses, and was raised for our justification.
Romans 5
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.
What is Faith
Romans 6 through 8 then describes and defines what he means by faith in Christ Jesus contrast to works which is exactly the same faith that Christ Jesus described in the Gospels.
Romans 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Regarding the atonement. . .
Romans 8 clearly describes the atonement as personally accessed by those who live by the Spirit they received by faith.
The first four verses of Romans 8 pretty much summarizes those who are covered by the atonement of Christ; in that, the condition for the atonement is being in Christ by faith as demonstrated by walking by the Spirit. . .
Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:12-13 Paul sums up what he means by walking in the Spirit and how important that is for the salvation we receive in Christ...
Romans 8:12-13
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Only receive Eternal Life if your faith leads you to die to sin and then live by the Spirit...
What this means is that a true faith in Christ Jesus means you have now repented of the old life of sin, and have now become obedient to the Spirit you received by faith. Only these are granted eternal life.
Galatians 6:8 (WEB) 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
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The Canon of the Christian Scriptures is something we understand to be the authentic Epistles or Letters to the Churches by Apostles or Apostolic Companion writers through history and tradition of the Christian Church.
We understand that corrupt leaders even within the churches existed at the time of the Apostles. We cannot blindly place our trust in interpretations of the Scriptures when we have the Scriptures themselves - God's inspired words fully revealed and made know to us by God's command that we must contend for, once for all delivered to the saints.
Romans 16:25-26 New International Version (NIV)
25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith
Any interpretation of Scripture to be universally accepted by the Church must be compared with Scripture, and the interpreter must be a fully credible leader within the Church.
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Thomas Cooper
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Thank you for your response. Unfortunately, what you said is misguided. The canon of the New Testament has not been entirely confirmed to be genuine. In fact, the author of the Book of Hebrews is entirely unknown. If it wearing for the Church, Gospels such as those of “Thomas” and “Judas” probably would be in most people’s bibles. The story of the Stoning of the Woman Caught in Adultery in John has been all but proven not be johnaine and probably belongs in Matthew’s but the Church accepted it to be scriptural canon. Also, the canon of the Old Testament is not confirmed to be historically genuine at all. The Book of Daniel seems to have been discrepancies with the history of Babylon. While most psalms and proverbs are attributed to David and Solomon, some’s origins are unknown. The divine authority of the Church was most definitely needed to collect and assemble the books we now have in our bibles.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
If the Father ABBA YAHWEH in Heaven tells you "Go to Greenfield and tell the people what Yahweh has done for you" ,
does that need to be interpreted ? (hint: no)
When the Father ABBA YAHWEH makes known by revelation everything about salvation to a person, does that need to be interpreted? (hint:no)
When the Father ABBA YAHWEH Reveals His Word , opening your mind to understand His Word, His Own Meaning,
does that need to be interpreted to you ? (hint: no)
The word "interpreted" has been maligned , altered, gutted, changed by tradition , corrupted by men, for 2000 years almost.
When the Father ABBA YAHWEH says do not interpret My Word / Prophecy of Scripture, what will you do ? Try to interpret it anyway ? (hint: HOPEFULLY NO ! ) ....
What the Father ABBA YAHWEH speaks through Jesus our Lord and Savior does not need interpreted to us, it is EITHER REVEALED TO US, as ABBA YAHWEH SAYS, or it is unknown to us, no matter who tries to explain it.
Especially the enemy! (The enemy's explanations are the longest, and least helpful, not edifying, since they are misleading everyone, or TRYING to mislead everyone) .
TRUST and RELY ON THE FATHER, ABBA YAHWEH, and HIS SON JESUS MESSIAH.
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Thanks for your reply.
Book of Hebrews
True, especially in later times, there was dispute over certain books. However, the Book of Hebrews was included among the authoritative Apostolic letters of the Church as early as the late 2nd century, being included among Paul's letters.
Gospels such as those of “Thomas” and “Judas”
The Gospel of Thomas was never recognized by the early Church as authentic, and was not in any of their authentic collections, only in collections of fictitious writings. As well, the Gospel of Thomas clearly appears to be of Gnostic origin.
The Gospel of Judas is another clearly gnostic book that the earliest church fathers considered fictitious and never included in any of their authentic collections of Scripture.
Woman Caught in Adultery
This is an issue that has to do with manuscript evidence. The manuscript evidence shows that the earliest quality manuscripts of the Gospel of John do not include that incident. Even so, this story does not in any way affect the doctrines of the Christian Scriptures.
Regarding other Letters of the New Testament, such as 2nd Peter, we have to remember that, within the 1st and 2nd centuries, not all the Epistles to the Churches were shared at the same time, and some were kept locally. Only later were collections put together of the authentic letters.
Old Testament Canon is not confirmed
While you may believe the Old Testament Canon, thousands of years after the fact, is not confirmed, that does not mean it is true. Josephus, a credible Jewish historian that lived during and after the time of Christ certainly considered the Jewish Canon closed long ago, and even listed the books - although the format was different in that some books were doubled up into one.
In addition, regarding the Book of Daniel, Lord Jesus quoted from, and referred to, the Book of Daniel (Matthew 24:15–16), as well as other OT books. That is good enough for me to demonstrate the authority of that Book.
I am sorry you have such a dim outlook of the Holy Scriptures. I also think you are misguided in your judgment of the Scriptures based on Church history and tradition.
Blessings
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Actually, I subscribe to the Holy Scriptures. And that is what I quoted. If you have disagreements with the Scriptures, I suggest you pray about it to God.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
That's normally good advice, but I think they have rules they are required to follow and directions / doctrines they are required to believe - asking God for God's Meaning is Meaningless to them - according to written and published hierarchical dogmas, doctrines and many many rules.
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It is strange that you ask for scripture backing up my claim about Jesus but give the scripture which says it. You seem to doubt that only through the deeds of Jesus can man be restored to God.
Do you believe that man's free will begins belief?
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Sorrrrry... no way. It is NOT through the deeds of Jesus,
but only through HIS BLOOD a man can be restored to Yahweh, as written and in perfect harmony throughout all Scripure, contrary to much of man's ways.
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You wrote:
Do you believe that man's free will begins belief?
My Reply:
People are Scripturally given the choice to believe or reject the Gospel invitation. The proud will reject the Gospel and resist the Spirit, while the humble will be open to the Spirit's guidance and will receive the Gospel with joy.
God does not make anyone proud or humble, and God holds everyone accountable for the choices they make. So, I believe every person was made by God to make choices of free will that God justly holds everyone accountable for.
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God set forth works for Jesus to accomplish ending with the cross. Jesus going to the cross was a work. Without his works we have the law.
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