Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

redleghunter · Jan 23, 2019

Cis.jd said:
Maybe you should respond then to what is in the bottom instead of pretending there is no rebuttal.

I saw what was at the bottom of your quote. I will not derail this thread by responding to a poor straw man.

redleghunter · Jan 23, 2019

David Cabrera said:
I don't mind, I practically had a thread on Romans debunking faith alone

A bold statement.

If you want make the argument here as it is front and center to the topic. I take it we will start with Romans chapter 1 and proceed from there?

Cis.jd · Jan 23, 2019

redleghunter said:
I saw what was at the bottom of your quote. I will not derail this thread by responding to a poor straw man.

Well you are offering absolutely nothing in rebuttal other than “nah.”.

redleghunter · Jan 23, 2019

David Cabrera said:
Romans mentioned the letter was addressed to the ones who were already justified so how can it talk about Jews and Gentiles? Also the verse you talk about John mentioned being cut off but it would be against your Calvinist view that once one enters into the Covenant, he/she would never leave

Romans 9-11 is about Jews and Gentiles. Maybe that is a digression.

Yes the Romans challenge above this post and the dialogue of “I am the true Vine” would be great. In fact that dialogue with the apostles in full context supports preservation of the saints. So I’m game for that tomorrow.

Cis.jd · Jan 23, 2019

redleghunter said:
Romans 9-11 is about Jews and Gentiles. Maybe that is a digression.

Yes the Romans challenge above this post and the dialogue of “I am the true Vine” would be great. In fact that dialogue with the apostles in full context supports preservation of the saints. So I’m game for that tomorrow.

So everyone I gave him this question:
"Here is an example. Back in the WW2 with the Nazi's holding/murdering Jews in a concentration camp. There where a few nazi's who were christian, Hitler claimed he was a christian... so are they saved by their faith alone regardless of stuffing jews in ovens?"

Just look at how he responds to it. Scripture teaching can be proven (or aided) through philosophical reasoning and/or evidence, since the nazi shows a logical reasoning for works he doesn't "care" to respond and will just give statements of "nahs".

Varangian Christian · Jan 23, 2019

@redleghunter It seems you are just going round in circles with everyone in this thread. Maybe it would help if you clarified your views?
Do you believe in:

Once saved always saved
Calvinist predestination
ect

Please make it clear what exactly you are arguing. Saying "we arent saved by works" is not clear enough because, unfortunately, you got 20,000+ other people saying the same thing while also meaning different things.

Varangian Christian · Jan 23, 2019

@redleghunter What do you think of what is said in this video?

Any objections?

redleghunter · Jan 23, 2019

Varangian Christian said:
@redleghunter It seems you are just going round in circles with everyone in this thread. Maybe it would help if you clarified your views?
Do you believe in:

Once saved always saved

Calvinist predestination

ect

Please make it clear what exactly you are arguing. Saying "we arent saved by works" is not clear enough because, unfortunately, you got 20,000+ other people saying the same thing while also meaning different things.

I’m arguing from the text which most are avoiding.

redleghunter · Jan 23, 2019

Cis.jd said:
Just look at how he responds to it.

It’s a flawed strawman.

It’s like a politician asking if his opponent has stopped beating his spouse.

Varangian Christian · Jan 23, 2019

redleghunter said:
I’m arguing from the text which most are avoiding.

Hey man, im trying to make this discussion productive and you are not helping. In the interest of good and honest debate please make your stance clear. You could start by explaining what exactly you object to in the video i posted to you.

Also, the verse in the OP in no way by itself supports salvation by faith alone. Both the link and the video i gave you explain that Orthodox do believe that we are saved by Grace but that it does not contradict the need for us to do good works. Please, explain what exactly you find wrong with the Orthodox view and stop wasting time.

Lastly, for the sake of everyone here, state whether you are a Calvinist, believe in once saved always saved, etc.

Varangian Christian · Jan 23, 2019

redleghunter said:
I’m arguing from the text which most are avoiding.

I see you like Luther. Read this:
Did Luther Get It Wrong? Most Major Contemporary Pauline Scholars Say “Yes”

Handmaid for Jesus · Jan 23, 2019

Brothers and sisters, it is our faith that works! God has given every man the measure of faith.
Romans12:3 ...God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Faith is like a seed that has to be planted. When you hold a seed in your hand, it has to be planted into the soil in order for it to grow into a tree. It is written
Mark4:31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:

32 But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

Our first work of our faith is believing on the finished work of Lord Jesus.
John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the work of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Our believing is a work of our faith which is a gift (Romans 12:3) that God has given to us. If you want to believe it's you, fine deceive yourself. But I am telling you, your saving faith is a gift from God, you were born with it. You can't even believe without faith. And you can do no works without it either. John 15 teaches us how we are branches in the vine. Read it for yourself. It is a mighty truth. Apart from the vine we can do/work nothing. For it is written
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Hazelelponi · Jan 23, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
Can someone please explain what Jesus meant by the terms "good" and "evil" in the following?

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

I haven't read the entire thread so if someone pointed this out the I apologize for reiterating.

This verse says those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

I actually know atheists who are as "good" as I am. There is no appreciable difference between their objective "goodness" and my own.

In charitable giving they are spot on. Indeed in sin they don't have any of what we consider open sins. they arent homosexuals, don't cheat on their spouses, don't lie, not alcoholics.. they are "good" they way we see good.

If anyone could make it into heaven on a technicality it would be them. So why will they rise to judgment and condemnation, and I rise to reward and life?

That's all Christ. I came to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ (belief in His life, death, and resurrection, as well declaring and believing in His Lordship over me) and was given the seed of God, the Holy Spirit upon my initial justification, and the atheist did not.

The good in me is God's Spirit. The good that I did was believe, which itself is a gift of God.

My rewards are rewards based on what I do as a result of that, as a consequence of that - but not my salvation. Not my rising to life.

I've certainly gone farther in my own personal "goodness" since I've been saved, I got out from under an addiction so the only thing to rule my life is God, the only Master I have is Him, but from the outside looking in lots of people quit addictions, lots of people who aren't saved do lots of things.

The good we are judged on is not any works we can do to force God's Hand and get into heaven.

Jesus said I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, No one comes to the Father except through Me.

When our good starts here and only here, then we can't declare works saves.. works is a response in love to the Gift, not the thing we do to get into heaven and that's what's being pointed out.

Danthemailman · Jan 23, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
Can someone please explain what Jesus meant by the terms "good" and "evil" in the following?

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

This is descriptive language. "Those who have done good and will rise and live" is descriptive of believers, while "those who have done what is evil and will rise to be condemned" is descriptive of unbelievers. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.

Being characterized as "doing what is good" flows from a heart that is saved and "having done what is evil" flows from a heart that is unsaved. *Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..

Are believers described as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?"

Are unbelievers described as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?"

Handmaid for Jesus · Jan 23, 2019

Hazelelponi said:
The good in me is God's Spirit. The good that I did was believe, which itself is a gift of God.

AMEN! AGREE!

Danthemailman · Jan 23, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
Of course it is, and the loss of salvation is by doing evil, and not good.

Here is one of a few very clear and to the point lists from the bible that says what not to do and what happens if we do.

1 Cor 6:9-10 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were.

How can the bible be more clear that things are expected of us? How does "Faith Only" deal with scripture like that any other way than believing exactly what it says?

Where do you see the words "loss of salvation" in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11?

1 Corinthians 6:9 - Do you not know that the unrighteous (not the righteous) will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 *And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

In Galatians 5:19-21, we also see a list of sinful, works of the flesh, practiced by the unrighteous. 19 - Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Do you understand the difference between genuine faith that "trusts only in Jesus Christ for salvation and not in works" (Ephesians 2:8,9) and an "empty profession of faith" that only "claims" to genuine but demonstrates by the lack of resulting evidential works that it's dead? (James 2:14)

Danthemailman · Jan 23, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
Jesus said you were wrong in the verse I quoted. Then the verse including the lists of sins also says you are wrong, just as the following does:

James 2:24

Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

How does an intelligent man just skip right by those as if they aren't there? It's beyond me.

I suppose you interpret James 2:24 to mean that man is "saved by works" in contradiction to (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc). James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against the state of a righteousness man.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous."

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Dkh587 · Jan 23, 2019

We are saved by grace through faith, but the faith that saves us is a live, active faith that works. Noah had faith in God & built the ark.. Moses has faith and led the Israelites our of Egypt.

Handmaid for Jesus · Jan 23, 2019

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:6
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
James 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

BNR32FAN · Jan 23, 2019

redleghunter said:
Really it’s not that hard to figure out.

Ephesians 2: NASB
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (NASB)

We have to become His workmanship.

Marty and Frank discuss it.

While we are justified (made right with God) by faith, the Bible also teaches that if we live a sinful life in disobedience or fail to abide by not producing fruit our salvation will be lost. The Bible does not teach that once you are justified you cannot lose your salvation. Being justified just means you have a clean slate it doesn’t mean you can live any way you please and that slate remains clean.

Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

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