Faith And Knowledge: A Logical Impossibility

[Voice Of Reason]

So often have people with strong faith in their believes claim to know what the future holds, what happens once life has ended, and how we all came to be. Faith is not knowledge, my friends. While I have heard the argument that a degree of knowledge is derived from faith, this is a logical impossibility.

Knowledge is the recognition of a fact. Faith is a strong belief in the unproven. Therefore, if one has faith in God, the existence of God is proven. On the same token, if one has faith that there is no god, this proves the absence of a god to be a fact as well. Ergo, we are forced to conclude that if knowledge is derived from faith, there is an existence and an absence of God at the same time. This creates a confutation rendering any knowledge from faith to be impossible.

 

[WayMan]

I've been saying the same thing for bloody ages.

To follow something that you do not know to be true must be madness, and if you don't know it's true then what's the point?

 

[Gabrial]

Knowledge is not the recognition of fact. Do you know that the sun is going to rise tomorrow? Do you actually know something is going to happen before it happens? The sun, could possible burn out in 2 hours...its not likely but its possible. And if there is any possible chance something can happen, then you cant be sure that it wont.

 

[WayMan]

Knowledge is not the recognition of fact. Do you know that the sun is going to rise tomorrow? Do you actually know something is going to happen before it happens? The sun, could possible burn out in 2 hours...its not likely but its possible. And if there is any possible chance something can happen, then you cant be sure that it wont.

You have given an example of what you think knowledge is not, but have neglected to say what you think it is, what is Knowledge then Gabrial?

 

[WayMan]

I don't know the sun will rise tomorrow, but I would bet my life that it will, this is based on the Knowledge that it has done so for billions of years, to expect otherwise without good reason would be to disregard knowledge.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Faith shouldn't be confused with knowledge- I agree. But that does not make faith a terrible thing if one can keep it seperate from knowledge. I believe in things and I know things. I believe in re-incarnation; I know that I have a dentist appointment next week (barring the sun exploding or other extenuating circumstances arising)

 

[Voice Of Reason]

In reality, knowledge is impossible to achieve. As far as human reason goes, yes, I know the sun will rise tomorrow. There is nothing in human reason that includes metaphysical forces.

 

[WayMan]

In reality, knowledge is impossible to achieve. QUOTE]

BS

 

[Voice Of Reason]

In reality, knowledge is impossible to achieve.

BS

Really? Do you know you are sitting at your computer right now? I don't mean to be far fetched, but is it not possible that a Matrix like simulation is real and this is a dream world? Can you be sure you're not dreaming?

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

We could get into perception=reality, but we should probably try to stay OT

 

[WayMan]

Really? Do you know you are sitting at your computer right now? I don't mean to be far fetched, but is it not possible that a Matrix like simulation is real and this is a dream world? Can you be sure you're not dreaming?

"Voice Of Reason" Do you know what Reason is ? cause it sure don't look like it to me.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

I said in an earlier post that within reason, yes, we know the sun will rise. Quite unfortunate that you took the rest of it out of context. Reason is the base of all human thought, and is a bond, a restriction on what we can comprehend.


Knowledge within reason is perfectly possible to attain. True knowledge is unnattainable.

 

[Carico]

Reason and knowledge? Worldly reason and knowledge contradicts itself incessantly. Scientists disagree with each other daily. There are constant historical contradictions. Even mathematics is not absolute. Only the laws of nature and God's word is absolute. We're still trying to understand the laws of nature. Trends in thinking about right and wrong change with each generation. People still think Elvis is alive. Some people think Hitler was a great man. Some think the Ku Klux Klan is right. The majority of people think that getting rid of a fetus is right. Most don't even KNOW if it's a baby. Reason and knowledge?All we humans have are opinions, period. Our arrogance comes in when we call it knowledge.

 

[Jimx611]

First, I think people should ask themselves if they want to believe in God. And if a person wants to believe in God they must have faith and confidence that one exist, for if you do not have faith in what you are trying to learn/ believe. You will never gain knowledge and with out knowledge you will never find evidence to determine if God is fact or fiction. My point is without faith you never give anything a fare chance to prove itself.

 

[Havoc]

Knowledge does not equate to fact. People "know" things all the time, and are completely wrong.

 

[Carico]

Exactly, Havoc, which is why we need an omnipotent source for knowledge. We were all created somehow. There are answers to every question under the sun. Once we become willing to acknowledge that the answers lie outside of ourselves, then we become open to what's true. The first step toward truth is to admit that we do not have the answers, but that they still exist. The proverbial tree either fell in the forest or it didn't. God either exists or he doesn't. There are answers to those questions. Those answers are called truth. Another name for the truth is God.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Another name for that truth is fear. You're using your god as a scapegoat, a security blanket, an explanation for what you cannot explain. Instead of seeking the truth, you find them conveniently in a handy little book.

 

[Carico]

We all depend on things everday! You can depend on worldly things like your car getting you to work, Voice, or your wife or husband not cheating on you, or that you will have money in the bank, or that you won't get sick, or die in an accident. All those things will eventually crumble and you will have nothing more to put your faith in. Your security blankets are not at all secure! Mine can never be taken away from me even after death.

As for truth being fear (which is absolutley absurd), then I suppose you do not seek the truth. You must then want the opposite which are lies. If you're not seeking the truth, then why do you ask any questions? Just to waste your time?

 

[Jimx611]

My point is, to determine a fact, you must be knowledgeable on the issue to understand the material/evidence, and understanding the material/evidence you can evalutate and test, for a truthful fact.

 

[Charles Darwin]

All those things will eventually crumble and you will have nothing more to put your faith in. Your security blankets are not at all secure! Mine can never be taken away from me even after death.

I recommend a wonderful book for you. It is called Cat's Cradle and is written by Kurt Vonnegut. A highly acclaimed book, i think it might explain some things to not just yourself but to everyone in the post (your talk of lies just reminded me is why i brought it up) BUT... moving back on topic...

My security blankets are as secure as yours are. I have FAITH (yes i know, an agnostic/deiest preaching faith, how ironic) in the goodness of those people who i confide my feelings in (in my case girlfriend, although you said wife, same difference). I believe in their word when they tell me that they love me and will stick by me in times of need. If you feel that my security blankets which are my brother, my girlfriend, and mainly MYSELF are not at all secure then I ask how you could possibly be married or undertake any strong emotional bond. As to the idea of loosing it after death, if you love someone enough, would you not wait eternity to see them again, even if you died early and they died late in life? I know that if my girlfriend ends up in heaven (which she will =P) and end up in hell (which I might) then I believe with every ounce of conviction in my soul that both she and I would do whatever it took to see each other again. If you cant call that the ultimate security blanket then I pity you.