Faith alone?

[christ disciple]

Yes by grace through faith. Christ saves us. Faith is the vehicle to obtain the grace that is present.
How are we saved? That depends on your definition of being saved but the Bible proclaims through belief and baptism.
You are correct that Love in an of it's self is not a work. It's an expression of love. our love without expression is nothing but words (1st Cor. Chapter 13).
What is (are) the fruit(s)of the Spirit? Love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance.
Who produces it? The Holy Spirit produces it through the Christian. Who bears it? God in all three persons, and the Christian.

Yes I'll attempt to elaborate: We can share any and all gifts of the Spirit without decreasing the amount we have. Oddly and against worldly science, the fruit actually increases, from the sharing. And not in just the way that is obvious to the Christian. It's not just that our faith is increased as we share it but another's faith as well which increases the Body of Christ as a whole.
See, I'm not one of those, looking for personal increase sorts. I know that Christianity is not about me. It's about Christ. Christ loves the Church (the Body of which He is the head).
When I do a good work, it is not for my return lest I have all the reward I need. When I do that work I do it as doing it unto Christ. Not because Randy is some good man but out of my love for Christ. To be Christ-like, one must love those Christ loves. I say let my good works proclaim the love of Christ and keep my unworthy name out of it.
I have a love for people I cannot explain. I can easily tell it's not created by me as it would be easier to just ignore many who are not lovely in demeanor. But as I have this fruit, I call it and treat it as my own. Just not mine to hoard but to freely share as if we keep it to ourselves it can be self removed or altogether rejected.

Have ever noticed that the scripture says Fruit and not Fruits of the Spirit?

I see it as saying the Fruit of the Spirit is Love expressing itself through joy, peace, patience, kindess....

What do you think?

 

[Rev Randy]

Have ever noticed that the scripture says Fruit and not Fruits of the Spirit?

I see it as saying the Fruit of the Spirit is Love expressing itself through joy, peace, patience, kindess....

What do you think?

I think your correct in correcting me on that. Except that in English when we see a tree full of apples we don't say, "Look at all the fruits". Fruit can be used as a plural. But as to your idea: Let me dwell on that a moment.

 

[Lion King]

Don't be snared by wording. Faith does not exist in a vacuum, I agree, but when it comes to "What is it that saves", the answer is Faith and Faith only. Yes, works come from it, and obedience is produced by it, and we only come to it thanks to Grace, but none of those is the cause of salvation. Only Faith.

Forgive me, but how can I not get hung up on the words, especially when James was clear that faith alone cannot save anyone?

You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. James 2:24



Can a person who has faith but no love be justified before God?

 

[Jake255]

Can a person who has faith but no love be justified before God?

Nope!

You are correct, Lion King.

Jesus said those who obey His commandments are those who love God. Love without obedience is not love, the very act is disobedience.

 

[Albion]

Forgive me, but how can I not get hung up on the words, especially when James was clear that faith alone cannot save anyone?

Because people read "Faith Alone" and think "Faith is not alone; there's also good works that accompany it and a willingness to do what God commands of us. And if it were not for Grace, no one would have Faith in the first place." Something like that.

And of course, that's so. Faith is not "alone."

But when the phrase "Faith Alone" is used, it means Faith Alone saves you to the exclusion of earning God's favor by performing a bunch of charitable deeds in the way that the pagans thought works would earn you eternal life from the gods.

So the wording can fool the eye. No, Faith is not alone; but Faith Alone saves.

As for the Epistle of James, you can post it as often as you like, but it will always mean that it takes a genuine Faith in Our Lord to be effective, not something you call "Faith" but which doesn't change you in the least.

 

[Lion King]

Because people read "Faith Alone" and think "Faith is not alone; there's also good works that accompany it and a willingness to do what God commands of us. And if it were not for Grace, no one would have Faith in the first place." Something like that.

And of course, that's so. Faith is not "alone."

But when the phrase "Faith Alone" is used, it means Faith Alone saves you to the exclusion of earning God's favor by performing a bunch of charitable deeds in the way that the pagans thought works would earn you eternal life from the gods.

So the wording can fool the eye. No, Faith is not alone; but Faith Alone saves.

As for the Epistle of James, you can post it as often as you like, but it will always mean that it takes a genuine Faith in Our Lord to be effective, not something you call "Faith" but which doesn't change you in the least.

Well, how do you explain these people being saved because of their deeds?

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46

 

[Albion]

Well, how do you explain these people being saved because of their deeds?

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46

You assume that these people who were either charitable or selfish were being judged on that account exclusively, don't you? But there is nothing in the passage that tells you that.

All we are told is that the evil doers go to one place and those who did well to another. Those whom God knew beforehand (Do you see that in the passage?) were capable of performing as God wanted and those who had not the Faith couldn't...and God knew it. It's not as though there is the slightest doubt in God's mind coming up to the judgment as to who would be where in the end. It's not the case that some of these people could put on a scoring spree at the last minute of life and get to the better place in the afterlife. But he still will render the verdict.

 

[Lion King]

Nope!

You are correct, Lion King.

Jesus said those who obey His commandments are those who love God. Love without obedience is not love, the very act is disobedience.

That's the reason I will never understand those who hold to this "saved by faith alone" doctrine. How do they rationalize away other passages in the Scriptures that clearly speak about being judged according to our deeds?

The Scriptures are clear that no one will be saved by faith alone, but only by doing the will of the Father:

“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” Matthew 7:24-27

But be you doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. James 1:22

 

[Lion King]

You assume that these people who were either charitable or selfish were being judged on that account exclusively, don't you? But there is nothing in the passage that tells you that.

All we are told is that the evil doers go to one place and those who did well to another. Those whom God knew beforehand (Do you see that in the passage?) were capable of performing as God wanted and those who had not the Faith couldn't...and God knew it. It's not as though there is the slightest doubt in God's mind coming up to the judgment as to who would be where in the end. It's not the case that some of these people could put on a scoring spree at the last minute of life and get to the better place in the afterlife. But he still will render the verdict.

Can a person who has faith but no love be justified before God?

 

[Tiredknight]

Several valid responses to that:

In orthodox baptismal theology, there are what are called the "Baptism by Desire" and the "Baptism by Blood".

The Early Church recognized that some people who believed, but had never been baptized because of varying valid reasons, wanted and intended to be baptized. Thus, it declared that all of these people, called "catechumens" (for they were hearers and learners of the faith and participated in the liturgy before Holy Communion), would be considered as Christians and be allowed to be buried in a Christian ritual. Because their desire was to enter the Church and be baptized, they were recognized as Christians despite not formally being members of the Church; their witness by their actions, desires, and beliefs made it clear.

The other, Baptism by Blood, is even more simple. Those who were killed because of practicing and believing in the Christian faith, though they were not yet baptized, were also recognized by the Church. In their case, the blood they shed were their baptismal waters.

St. Dismas could qualify for either; he must have recognized Jesus for Who is He because of his request: all Jews knew that no one could forgive sins except God. He knew Jesus could forgive sins and humbly begged, being truly contrite. Jesus, out of His infinite mercy, chose to forgive him, recognizing his true faith. The Church notes this.

The Church also notes that Jesus had yet to truly die and be risen, let alone ascend. Thus, because of this, St. Dismas did not have to be baptized at all, for as Holy Writ says, in baptism we die, are buried/descend in, and are raised in Jesus. If Jesus had yet been raised from the dead, then that vital aspect of baptism had yet to occur, so there were no Christian baptisms yet.

So either of the three is a valid reply: the first two are a part of baptismal theology that is largely ignored by those that reject orthodox baptismal theology and sacramental theology and the third point is a logical result of Holy Scripture.

Sacramental theology and baptismal theology are not straightjackets. There is no legalism in orthodox Christian theology, and the above shows it.

Just a QUICK note... The thief never asked for forgiveness... He simply asked to be remembered.

It is not that he did not ask for forgiveness, it is that he recognized his position. This is akin to the story where Jesus points out the prayer of the publican and the tax collector.

 

[Tiredknight]

That's the reason I will never understand those who hold to this "saved by faith alone" doctrine. How do they rationalize away other passages in the Scriptures that clearly speak about being judged according to our deeds?

The Scriptures are clear that no one will be saved by faith alone, but only by doing the will of the Father:

“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” Matthew 7:24-27

But be you doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. James 1:22

Well.. that is because the bible strictly says we are saved by grace through faith. That is how we receive justification what your looking at is Sanctification which is not the same thing. You are not sanctified at the moment of Justification. Justification happens the moment we place our faith in Christ. Sanctification is wholly separate matter.

But Sanctification always follows justification, never the other way around. And you need both to be saved...

One of my pastors said it this...

I am saved: by grace through faith, This is justification... It as at this point that we are called the sons and daughters of God. WE are his and we are imputed righteousness through christ. WE are able to enter heaven.

I am being saved: Works, this is sanctification. This is where we can be what Jesus says a "True Disciple" this where we are activly putting to death the Old man and putting on the new man by the renewing of our minds through the word of God.

I will be saved: Reward, This is Glorification. Heaven Baby... nothing better then to be with Jesus in glorification!

and it is in this order never any other way.

 

[PaladinValer]

Just a QUICK note... The thief never asked for forgiveness... He simply asked to be remembered.

Forgiveness is implied given the context.

 

[Tiredknight]

Forgiveness is implied given the context.

no it is not... he did not ask for it.

what your saying is going beyond what is written.

 

[Lion King]

Well.. that is because the bible strictly says we are saved by grace through faith. That is how we receive justification what your looking at is Sanctification which is not the same thing. You are not sanctified at the moment of Justification. Justification happens the moment we place our faith in Christ.

It is also written:

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24

 

[Tiredknight]

It is also written:

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24

Cherry picked perfectly. If you keep reading you see what james means... He says Faith with out works is dead...

Then with Paul he says that We justified apart from the law!

Romans 3:23 -28
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

So who is right...

both.

You are justified by faith alone. But your faith is dead and useless with out works.

Another way to see it is like this...

You own a super awesome hot sports car. But all you do is read the manual and have faith that the car will start, But you never drive the car and work the car. You just let it sit. Eventually that car will fall apart and be useless with out you ever even touching it.

You had the car, but you never used it.

So is the same with faith. You read the manual, the bible but you never use the faith. Thus the faith is dead and useless.

You are saved by faith through grace, but the grace does not expect you to stay still once you are saved. You must show your fruit. Other wise your simply dead.

 

[Lion King]

Cherry picked perfectly. If you keep reading you see what james means... He says Faith with out works is dead...

How is it cherry picking when James clearly says we are not justified by faith alone?

Then with Paul he says that We justified apart from the law!

Where did I ever mention we are justified by law?

Romans 3:23 -28
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

So who is right...

both.

You are justified by faith alone. But your faith is dead and useless with out works.

Can you please show me one passage that says we are justified by faith ALONE?

 

[Jake255]

Cherry picked perfectly. If you keep reading you see what james means... He says Faith with out works is dead...

Then with Paul he says that We justified apart from the law!

Romans 3:23 -28
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

So who is right...

both.

You are justified by faith alone. But your faith is dead and useless with out works.

Another way to see it is like this...

You own a super awesome hot sports car. But all you do is read the manual and have faith that the car will start, But you never drive the car and work the car. You just let it sit. Eventually that car will fall apart and be useless with out you ever even touching it.

You had the car, but you never used it.

So is the same with faith. You read the manual, the bible but you never use the faith. Thus the faith is dead and useless.

You are saved by faith through grace, but the grace does not expect you to stay still once you are saved. You must show your fruit. Other wise your simply dead.

Many are called, but few are chosen.

People are given faith but have no works - they will not be chosen. Many people will fall away from that very same faith that saved someone else because of what they DID.

 

[PaladinValer]

no it is not... he did not ask for it.

what your saying is going beyond what is written.

No; it goes into what is implied by (often called "said in between the lines") the words.

 

[ChristOurCaptain]

How is it cherry picking when James clearly says we are not justified by faith alone?



Where did I ever mention we are justified by law?

1: It's cherry picking, when you don't look at the contexts the verses you rip out, are spoken in.

2: If we're not justified by faith, by grace, then we're justified by keeping the law. Tertium non datur.

 

[Lion King]

1: It's cherry picking, when you don't look at the contexts the verses you rip out, are spoken in.

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:14-24

Was Abraham justified by works? Yes or No?

2: If we're not justified by faith, by grace, then we're justified by keeping the law. Tertium non datur.

I thought it was faith alone?

Anyway, one is justified by doing the will of God. That is listening and doing what Christ instructed us.