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Failed as a Christian

Paul of Eugene OR

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Thank you everyone for your replies.

Paul of Eugene OR- my contempt and distain largely comes from the fact that I work in a customer service job. unfortunately I have many abusive customers. I realize it's a bad attitude to have, but it is difficult to deal with that for years and not end up with a general dislike for humanity.

Radical obedience to God's commands is not easy! Remember Christ's command to pray for your enemies and for those who spitefully abuse you. It works.

I'm at the point where it seems easier to live as if I know I'm going to hell, rather than live my whole life thinking I'm going to heaven, only to be surprised when I'm found to not t be qualified as a Christian. My former pastor has given many sermons about how a lot of people in a lot of churches, who lived their whole lives thinking they were saved will have a very ugly surprise the day of the rapture. I used to have a bunch of bumper stickers, until I heard a message about being a "bumper sticker Christian", loving the slogans but having little substance underneath. I've put away the Christian music and conservative talk radio, and have been listening to rock and NPR.

Hey, I'm a great fan of NPR! Not rock music, though.


In light of dayhiker's post that the greatest commandment is love, my personal experience in the evangelical church is light on love, heavy on condemnation. As I said before, I am 28 and still single. I'm not interested in marriage and children, I consider myself too self centered to have a family. I am free to spend my time and money on what I want, and I like that. In the church, I often had people ask why I'm still single, or what's wrong with me that I don't even have a girlfriend. Personally, I find that none of their business. I never really learned how to date, I've been on two dates in the last 15 years.

If love is the greatest commandment, what's so wrong with joining a more liberal church? I have had a change of mind politically over the last year, and I'm beginning to think that the American right wing has hijacked Christianity.

That's why I have taken an interest in the Unitarian Church. I know they are not a Christian church per se, but there are Christians among their number, and they appear to be strong on love, for all people. Last Sunday I thought about going, but couldn't bring myself to go in.

There are other options. What about a mainline protestant church? The kind that many say are just to liberal, but actually take the idea of being a neighbor to all people to heart, as their Lord taught them to do.

But pay little heed to what men say. Ask for Divine guidance!
 
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NewCreation17

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How do you know that your faith is genuine, or that your faith is enough?. I asked God this very question….. If faith is enough to save our souls, how much faith do we need exactly? Because it is written Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. /My story: I was in my car, thinking about what Pastor Thompson had just talked about last Sunday. Jesus Christ gave us everything on the cross, and we need to give him all we have, in prayer, faith. Bible study, and love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, soul, strength. I was thinking, faith in Jesus’ sacrifice and blood shed on the cross for our sins saves us or more specifically, in Romans 10:9-10: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. The Bible makes it clear that salvation is not by works but faith in Jesus Christ. Yet God says if we are Lukewarm he will spit us out. So how much faith is enough to save? Well I thought enough faith to produce works. For it is written in James 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. I thought to myself how I can answer someone’s question of what does it takes to be saved. Faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ and his death burial and resurrection and knowing Jesus Christ was God on earth, part of the trinity of God, and the Word became flesh and was named Jesus Christ/ Or Yeshua Hamashiach in Hebrew the Son of God. But the Lord led me to this verse when I opened my Bible after I had prayed and was pondering. The verse he lead me to was 2 Peter 1: 5-11 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.. So if you read 2 Peter 1:5-11 it tells you exactly how to make sure you stay fruitful in your faith in Jesus Christ. Along with following the commandments Jesus spoke of in all four gospels, for it is written in John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments. So I would say yes faith in Jesus Christ, and if your faith is genuine you will produce fruit, and this is how God assures you will produce fruit, in 2 Peter 1: 5-11.
 
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cuja1

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Radical obedience to God's commands is not easy! Remember Christ's command to pray for your enemies and for those who spitefully abuse you. It works.



Hey, I'm a great fan of NPR! Not rock music, though.




There are other options. What about a mainline protestant church? The kind that many say are just to liberal, but actually take the idea of being a neighbor to all people to heart, as their Lord taught them to do.

But pay little heed to what men say. Ask for Divine guidance!

I don't doubt that radical obedience to God is not easy, but it seems to me that something has to happen within a person before that radical obedience can be achieved. I don't believe it's possible for a person at any point in time can say "I'm going to do everything God wants me to do right now, even if it means having my fingernails ripped out and vinegar poured in the wounds! Even if it means being crucified on a cross! Even if it mean [insert favorite form of torture here]!

I'm sorry, I DON'T BELIEVE IT. It can't be done when you feel like it. There's no way a person can wholeheartedly and willingly serve God until God makes it happen.

If you are one of those people who are radically obedient, think about what it took for you to get to that point in your life. You know a series of events lead to that. It's not right to make it sound like someone can just be at that point without those series of events happening first. This leads to disillusionment because the person knows they are not willing or able to be there yet. Maybe that's what Jesus meant by count the cost.

A lot of people take count the cost to mean "decide if you are willing to give up what you have to give up to follow Jesus". I think it means, don't start something for Jesus until you know you've got it in you to follow through with it. That's why He says otherwise people will look at what you started and didn't finish.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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I don't doubt that radical obedience to God is not easy, but it seems to me that something has to happen within a person before that radical obedience can be achieved. I don't believe it's possible for a person at any point in time can say "I'm going to do everything God wants me to do right now, even if it means having my fingernails ripped out and vinegar poured in the wounds! Even if it means being crucified on a cross! Even if it mean [insert favorite form of torture here]!

I'm sorry, I DON'T BELIEVE IT. It can't be done when you feel like it. There's no way a person can wholeheartedly and willingly serve God until God makes it happen.

If you are one of those people who are radically obedient, think about what it took for you to get to that point in your life. You know a series of events lead to that. It's not right to make it sound like someone can just be at that point without those series of events happening first. This leads to disillusionment because the person knows they are not willing or able to be there yet. Maybe that's what Jesus meant by count the cost.

A lot of people take count the cost to mean "decide if you are willing to give up what you have to give up to follow Jesus". I think it means, don't start something for Jesus until you know you've got it in you to follow through with it. That's why He says otherwise people will look at what you started and didn't finish.

I think you are hung up on verbage that doesn't really matter. Here's my final advice: Take your questions and issues up to God every day, once a day, in prayer, and don't contemplate your salvation or lack thereof otherwise during the day; keep doing that until God gets back to you. In the meanwhile, just use your best personal judgement about what church to attend or not attend, until He gets back to you.

This could be a couple of years or more, but what is that compared to eternity?

Oh, do pray earnestly for people you are troubled by, as we discussed before. Its really going to help.
 
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cuja1

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I think you are hung up on verbage that doesn't really matter. Here's my final advice: Take your questions and issues up to God every day, once a day, in prayer, and don't contemplate your salvation or lack thereof otherwise during the day; keep doing that until God gets back to you. In the meanwhile, just use your best personal judgement about what church to attend or not attend, until He gets back to you.

This could be a couple of years or more, but what is that compared to eternity?

Oh, do pray earnestly for people you are troubled by, as we discussed before. Its really going to help.

That sounds like good advice.:thumbsup:
 
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JLR1300

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I think it would be a really big mistake to start going to a Unitarian Church. The Unitarians obviously don't believe that Jesus is God. They don't believe in the trinity. So their beliefs are totally non-Christian and heretical. To so totally turn your back on Christianity is extremely dangerous. Not because being in a building full of non-Christians can cause you to lose your salvation... but because you would fit in well with them only if you are also an unbeliever. Why go to church at all if that church has thrown out the essence and heart of a Church (Christ) Why go to a bar if it has no liquour? Why go to a strip club if there are no women there? (that's just an illustration) So why go to a church that has no Christ? It would be better just to stay home on Sunday than to go to Satan's synagogue. Of course, I agree that you might want to get out of the Church you are in presently. The pastor sounds like a legalist to me.

Your problem is that you are trying to be good enough to be justified. As long as we are worried we are going to hell because our behavior isn't good enough it shows that we aren't trusting in the blood of Jesus to cover our sins and are looking to our works for salvation. So what I encourage you to do is to actually believe on Christ for salvation. Here is what the gospel actually is.

Jesus is God. He died on the cross and paid the penalty for our sins. His death completely satisfied the wrath of God for sin. The gospel teaches that if you trust and believe that you are personally, automatically forgiven and accepted by God simply because the death of Jesus pays for your sins you are saved. The gospel teaches that salvation is a totally free gift. You must accept it by faith. Just claim by faith that salvation is yours because of Jesus' payment on the cross. That is the only way God will accept you.

If you try to be good to be forgiven and justified God will reject you. Yes, it is true that after you are justified the Holy Spirit will enter you and lead you more and more into following Christ. But even then you will not be perfect. You just need to say to Jesus... Lord I cannot change my life but I trust you to make whatever changes you wish in whatever time frame you decide. I believe you will sanctify me... but I do not trust in my sanctification for my justification. I trust in your blood for my justification and in that alone. Thank you for salvation by grace.
 
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JLR1300

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One final point to the original poster... you said that you have come to believe that it is possible to believe that Jesus is Lord and yet still not be saved. That is true. You can believe that Jesus is Lord and God and not be saved. You also must believe that He died for your sins and rescued you from God's wrath. That is, you must believe in Him for salvation. That is where most people mess up. Most Americans don't have a hard time believing that Jesus is the Lord God. That is the easy part because every Christian Church teaches that.

The hard part is to believe that we don't have to do something morally courageous to get saved. People are unsaved because they believe that they have to be able to exercise the moral courage to turn from all their bad habits and sins before they can obtain forgiveness and justification. People see salvation as a bargain in which promises are exchanged. We promise to give up all our sins and be good and in return God promises to give us salvation. Wrong.

Now it is indeed based on a promise. The promise is God's promise to us. We don't make one. He promises that He has paid for our sins and accepts us on that basis if we believe Him. We simply believe Him that we are completely accepted and forgiven simply because He has paid for our sins. His part is to do the work and make the promise. Our part is simply to believe. (and even that is something the Holy Spirit leads us to do and causes us to do)

So believe that Jesus is the Lord God. But that is not enough. You also must abandon any attempt to look to your works for salvation and simply believe that Jesus' blood saves you now and forever. Here is what Paul says... "to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who justifies the UNGODLY, his faith is accounted as righteousness. Romans 4:5
 
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Sketcher

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If I was saved (eternally) by grace in 2005 per Romans 8:39, but in 2014 my thoughts, words, and actions do not resemble the biblical definition of a Christian per 1John 1:1-2:19, than what am I? Jesus spoke strongly in Matthew 7, that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" is saved, but only he who does the will of the Father. In John's Gospel, Jesus says that "My sheep hearMy voice...and follow Me". How can I know if I have ever heard Jesus speak to me?
Why don't you believe that your thoughts, words, and actions do not fit the profile described in 1 John 1 and 2? Remember, this passage includes:

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. "

Do you confess and renounce sin as you become aware of it? Do you change your ways or at least devote time and energy to how you can practically change your ways to be more in line with Jesus?

For a few years I truly believed I was saved, my past present and future sins forgotten, my holy criminal record lost in the fire, with Jesus' record to replace it. That salvation was by grace through faith alone, nothing I could do to earn it or lose it. That was until we got to 2Peter and 1John, as well as a personal reading of James, who emphasised knowing our salvation by our works.
2 Peter was about identifying people who were worse than moral failures, they were wolves in sheep's clothing. These were manipulators who would work the church's system and establish themselves as teachers, while getting into gullible womens' pants. If that doesn't describe your life, I wouldn't be too concerned.

1 John was about identifying the Gnostics that were within the ranks of the church. These were people that claimed that the sins of the body did not affect the soul, and therefore lived immoral lives, they were unloving people. They claimed that Jesus was a "divine phantom" and thus did not come in the flesh, hence passages like 1 John 4:2-3.

I still believe that Jesus is the only way to God and Heaven, but based on my fondness for four letter words, my disdain and contempt of my fellow man, and a sexual sin that I havefought since I was 14, I do not qualify as a Christian under 1Cor 6:9, 1John 1-2:19, or Matt 7:22.
Well, Matt 7:22 doesn't tell you who is fake and who is not, just what some of the fakes say. Again, with 1 John 1-2, look at the overall pattern - are you sinning less, wanting to sin less, and devoting time and energy to how to sin less? That's love for God. Also, never read 1 Co 6:9 or 10 without reading verse 11 - "And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." In Christ, the sin doesn't define us anymore. God has given us a new identity, so indulging in the deeds of death is really living a lie to who we really are now, in Christ. Remeber Romans 6:20-23:

"For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

That's an admonishment to live up to the identity we have been given in Christ. Also, remember that every Paul was writing these instructions to those who were already saved:

"Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil. Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you." - Eph 4:25-32

This means there were people in the Lord who still had issues with falsehood, anger outside God's bounds, theft, corrupting talk, bitterness, malice, and lack of forgiveness toward one another. In an anointed church! Paul was telling them all to move past that.

I have heard pastors teach that we all struggle with sin, but if years later we are still dealing with the same particular sin, we need to question whether we are indeed saved, because Jesus frees us from the sins we strggle with.

I do not have any bad feelings toward God. I do not believe He has failed me, but that I failed Him. This post is certainly not exhaustive, but I feel adequately represents my struggle over the past few years. I could go on ad nauseum how I feel condemned by the people in church.Being a single man at 28 often raises a few eyebrows in an Evangelical setting. Given my lack of people skills, and common interests, or even how to court a woman, I expect to be a "Bachelor 'til the Rapture"

I'm dead serious when I say I am seriously considering joining a Unitarian Church. I feel like the battle has been lost, so I might as well lay down my weapon and step off the battlefield. I don't know how to be a Christian, and I'm tired of putting on the fake smile and telling everyone at church that my "walk" is going fine. Billy Graham once said that Christianity isnt for wimps.
All this is leading you to considering a Unitarian church, which will likely not preach the Gospel. Big picture here: Satan's using all this to deceive you. He's accusing you of your own sin, making you believe that you flunked out of Christianity (which the New Testament doesn't tell us that we can do) even though you seem to be a conscientious person, and now he has you considering going to the heretics. The way to live out "Christianity isn't for wimps" here is to stop giving credence to these ideas that you're too much of a failure to be a real Christian, which is a lie of the devil.

I too have been shaken, wondering if I truly loved God because of the sin in my life. There were some weeks of intense prayer, but the conclusion to that matter was that I do in fact love him, just not enough. "Lord, I love you, help me to love you more." That, if you can identify with that sentiment, is a good prayer to pray.
 
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Sketcher

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1Jn 3:9 also seems to indicate that we can come to a point where we don't sin, in fact can't sin. Which ties into the sermon I heard that boils down to: if you've struggled with the same sin for years, you might not be saved, victory is in Christ, and a lack of victory is a lack of Christ.
Which of the people who preached that to you are completely without sin, in practice?
 
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