Factory Farming

[nebulaJP]

What is the Christian position on factory farming? Does the Bible/Christianity condone it?

 

[oi_antz]

What is the Christian position on factory farming? Does the Bible/Christianity condone it?

Deuteronomy 25:4, Proverbs 12:10 show that the heart of a godly person does not condone it. Matthew 7:12 shows the heart of a godly person more generally.

 

[nebulaJP]

Deuteronomy 25:4, Proverbs 12:10 show that the heart of a godly person does not condone it. Matthew 7:12 shows the heart of a godly person more generally.

In your opinion, do most Christians avoid purchasing factory farmed animal products? For example, this could be accomplished by hunting and/or being "humaneitarian". When there is a church function involving food, are most churches likely to serve humanely raised meat, sourced from small family farms?

 

[oi_antz]

In your opinion, do most Christians avoid purchasing factory farmed animal products? For example, this could be accomplished by hunting and/or being "humaneitarian".

Although I do not know reliable numbers, seeing as I have not seen such a survey, I expect probably most do not. I know of myself, I prefer to by free range eggs when I need to buy eggs, though I do keep my own chooks. There have been times when I have chosen to buy cage eggs because of financial concerns. I expect there is a lot of Christian people who would choose to buy cage eggs for that reason. In supermarkets, 10 free range eggs costs about $6.50, right alongside 20 cage eggs that cost $4.50. For meat products, I do not know seeing it is not advertised on the packaging.

When there is a church function involving food, are most churches likely to serve humanely raised meat, sourced from small family farms?

Probably not, unless that church has particularly sensitive conscience on this matter. There is all sorts of different churches out there, some quite strong in the spirit of God, others weak to their temptations.

Meet Chookie!

 

[nebulaJP]

There have been times when I have chosen to buy cage eggs because of financial concerns. I expect there is a lot of Christian people who would choose to buy cage eggs for that reason. In supermarkets, 10 free range eggs costs about $6.50, right alongside 20 cage eggs that cost $4.50. For meat products, I do not know seeing it is not advertised on the packaging.

I don’t see financial concerns being a legitimate reasons to ignore the Bible’s commandments regarding animal welfare. For one thing, Americans (for example) consume way more protein than we need:

The National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey found that the average American male consumes 102 grams of protein per day, while the average female eats about 70 grams. That's almost twice the daily recommended intake established by the Food and Nutrition Board. For most healthy individuals, it's recommended that 10-15 percent of our daily calories come from protein (about 56 grams for men and 46 for women).

Also, protein is found in every whole fruit and vegetable, and makes up 10-12% of plant food calories overall, which is about what you need. The point being that if one cannot afford to buy the more expensive, humanely raised animal products one week, they can always stock up on beans, brown rice and tofu that week. Also, humanely raised animal products are often a lot cheaper when you get them directly from the small farms themselves. It is just not as convenient as buying factory farmed products at the grocery store. But is eternal damnation and/or temporal punishment convenient?

 

[oi_antz]

I don’t see financial concerns being a legitimate reasons to ignore the Bible’s commandments regarding animal welfare.

Me too! But reality is that people do choose to ignore biblical precepts. But what is interesting is that I did not feel condemnation for doing it.

For one thing, Americans (for example) consume way more protein than we need:

The National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey found that the average American male consumes 102 grams of protein per day, while the average female eats about 70 grams. That's almost twice the daily recommended intake established by the Food and Nutrition Board. For most healthy individuals, it's recommended that 10-15 percent of our daily calories come from protein (about 56 grams for men and 46 for women).

Also, protein is found in every whole fruit and vegetable, and makes up 10-12% of plant food calories overall, which is about what you need. The point being that if one cannot afford to buy humanely raised animal products one week, they can always stock up on beans, brown rice and tofu that week.

Sure, we always can do things better. But that we don't do as well as we could doesn't mean that we have not done what we know we should.

Also, humanely raised animal products are often a lot cheaper when you get them directly from the small farms themselves. It is just not as convenient as getting it at the grocery store. But is eternal damnation and/or temporal punishment convenient?

What gives you the idea that temporal punishment or eternal damnation will result to those who buy meat from a supermarket?

 

[nebulaJP]

What gives you the idea that temporal punishment or eternal damnation will result to those who buy meat from a supermarket?

Proverbs 12:10:

New International Version
The righteous care for the needs of their animals, but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel.

For one thing, pigs have a psychological need to turn around, (in addition to other things). So, the confinement of pigs in gestation crates seen in the OP is unrighteous per Proverbs 12:10. Paying someone to carry out this unrighteousness for you is in violation, so why wouldn't it be subject to penalty like any other sin?

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Best to avoid animal products completely in my opinion. They are not necessary to maintain good health, and even humane techniques still cause suffering. I figure I'd rather avoid causing unnecessary suffering. Obviously any farming causes suffering for some animals, but considering it takes something like 800 calories of grain/corn feeds to make about 100 calories of meat (the ratio depends somewhat on the type of animal killed and the method of raising but is always greater than one), even that harm is minimized by only consuming plants.

 

[nebulaJP]

Best to avoid animal products completely in my opinion. They are not necessary to maintain good health, and even humane techniques still cause suffering.

I agree, and that is why I am a vegan personally (but freegan - reclaiming meat and plant food from grocery store dumpsters - causes even less suffering). However, I feel that the suffering that goes along with truly humane techniques has been going on since life began and is also within the parameters of what is allowed by the Bible, unlike the suffering seen in factory farming, which has only been with us since the 1960s and the rise of the fast-fast food restaurant.

Edit: The suffering caused by the trip to the slaughterhouse is new, but other than that, small farm animal agricultural can be at least as humane as it has been throughout the history of domestic animals, is what I meant.

 

[dcalling]

I agree, and that is why I am a vegan personally (but freegan - reclaiming meat and plant food from grocery store dumpsters - causes even less suffering). However, I feel that the suffering that goes along with truly humane techniques has been going on since life began and is also within the parameters of what is allowed by the Bible, unlike the suffering seen in factory farming, which has only been with us since the 1960s and the rise of the fast-fast food restaurant.

Edit: The suffering caused by the trip to the slaughterhouse is new, but other than that, small farm animal agricultural can be at least as humane as it has been throughout the history of domestic animals, is what I meant.

According to the Bible, God initially designed humans to ate fruits only, and it is sometimes after humans sinned, God allowed humans to ate animals.

 

[oi_antz]

Proverbs 12:10:

New International Version
The righteous care for the needs of their animals, but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel.

For one thing, pigs have a psychological need to turn around, (in addition to other things). So, the confinement of pigs in gestation crates seen in the OP is unrighteous per Proverbs 12:10.

I agree with this, as an observation of truth.

Paying someone to carry out this unrighteousness for you [...]

I don't know a single person whose decision to buy a meat product is due to desiring to fund unrighteous treatment of animals. The normal motivations are budget and taste.

[...] is in violation, so why wouldn't it be subject to penalty like any other sin?

It doesn't seem like this proverb is a commandment to be violated. Rather it reads as an observation of the way godly people treat others compared to wicked people.

 

[dcalling]

I agree with this, as an observation of truth.

I don't know a single person whose decision to buy a meat product is due to desiring to fund unrighteous treatment of animals. The normal motivations are budget and taste.

It doesn't seem like this proverb is a commandment to be violated. Rather it reads as an observation of the way godly people treat others compared to wicked people.

Totally agree. God don't like treat animals cruelly, God even has a law not to cook baby calf with mother's milk. God don't want us to kill animal for fun, or eat animal for fun, or just watch animal suffer for fun.

But if some meat product is already on the shelf, none of that matters, the animal is already died. And I have no idea how much an animal is aware of the situation, if they perfer to be outside and cold/hungry, or inside, warm and been feed all the time. Some pet rabits/dogs/pigs are so fat they can't even move, yet they seems to be very happy (as long as they are feed)

 

[nebulaJP]

I don't know a single person whose decision to buy a meat product is due to desiring to fund unrighteous treatment of animals. The normal motivations are budget and taste.

And also convenience. But why does their motivation matter? Regardless of motivation, they are funding the unrighteous treatment of animals and if they don't know this it is because they don't want to know.

It doesn't seem like this proverb is a commandment to be violated. Rather it reads as an observation of the way godly people treat others compared to wicked people.

If the Bible is the word of God and it tells you what is "godly", isn't that the same as God saying "do the following..."? Does everything have to be in form of a "commandment"? Then how about the following commandments concerning the physical and psychological wellbeing of livestock (Link)?:

"Under Jewish law, animals have some of the same rights as humans do. Animals rest on Shabbat, as humans do (Ex. 20:10). We are forbidden to muzzle an ox to prevent it from eating while it is working in the field (Deut. 25:4), just as we must allow human workers to eat from the produce they are harvesting (Deut. 23:25-26). Animals can partake of the produce from fields lying fallow during the sabbatical year (Ex. 23:11).

Several commandments demonstrate concern for the physical or psychological suffering of animals. We may not plow a field using animals of different species (Deut. 22:10), because this would be a hardship to the animals. We are required to relieve an animal of its burden, even if we do not like its owner, do not know its owner, or even if it is ownerless (Ex. 23:5; Deut. 22:4). We are not permitted to kill an animal in the same day as its young (Lev. 22:28), and are specifically commanded to send away a mother bird when taking the eggs (Deut 22:6-7), because of the psychological distress this would cause the animal. In fact, the Torah specifically says that a person who sends away the mother bird will be rewarded with long life, precisely the same reward that is given for honoring mother and father (Ex. 20:12; Deut. 5:16), and indeed for observing the whole Torah (Deut. 4:40). This should give some indication of the importance of this law."

 

[Ilovegod888]

Fellow Vegan here. Read the "China Study", it's not just about humane reasons. I can't see the point in stealing a chicken's eggs. Plus, it's bad for the environment, your health, and just plain cruel (by my standards of course). Why to go Vegan article.

1. "Slim down and become energized: Is shedding some extra pounds first on your list of goals for the new year? Vegans are, on average, up to 20 pounds lighter than meat-eaters are. And unlike unhealthy fad diets, which leave you feeling tired (and usually don’t keep the pounds off for long), going vegan is the healthy way to keep the excess fat off for good while leaving you with plenty of energy.
2. It’s the best way to help animals: Did you know that every vegan saves more than 100 animals a year? There is simply no easier way to help animals and prevent suffering than by choosing vegan foods over meat, eggs, and dairy products.
3. A healthier, happier you: A vegan diet is great for your health! According to the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, vegans are less likely to develop heart disease, cancer, diabetes, or high blood pressure than meat-eaters are. Vegans get all the nutrients that they need to be healthy, such as plant protein, fiber, and minerals, without all the nasty stuff in meat that slows you down and makes you sick, such as cholesterol and saturated animal fat.
4. Vegan food is delicious: So you’re worried that if you go vegan, you’ll have to give up hamburgers, chicken sandwiches, and ice cream? You won’t. As the demand for vegan food skyrockets, companies are coming out with more and more delicious meat and dairy-product alternatives that taste like the real thing but are much healthier and don’t hurt any animals. Plus, we have a list of some of our favorite products and thousands of tasty kitchen-tested recipes to help you get started!
5. Meat is gross: Meat is often contaminated with feces, blood, and other bodily fluids—all of which make animal products the top source of food poisoning in the United States. Scientists at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health tested supermarket chicken flesh and found that 96 percent of Tyson chicken was contaminated with campylobacter, a dangerous bacterium that causes 2.4 million cases of food poisoning each year, resulting in diarrhea, cramping, abdominal pain, and fever.
6. Help feed the world: Eating meat doesn’t just hurt animals—it hurts people, too. It takes tons of crops and water to raise farmed animals. In fact, it takes up to 13 pounds of grain to produce just 1 pound of animal flesh! All that plant food could be used much more efficiently if it were fed directly to people. The more people who go vegan, the better able we’ll be to feed the hungry.
7. Save the planet: Meat is not green. Consuming meat is actually one of the worst things that you can do for the Earth. It is wasteful and causes enormous amounts of pollution, and the meat industry is also one of the biggest causes of climate change. Adopting a vegan diet is more effective than switching to a “greener” car in the fight against climate change.
8. All the cool kids are doing it: The list of stars who shun animal flesh is basically a “who’s who” of today’s hottest celebs. Joaquin Phoenix, Ariana Grande, Al Gore, Flo Rida, Tobey Maguire, Shania Twain, Alicia Silverstone, Anthony Kiedis, Casey Affleck, Kristen Bell, Alyssa Milano, Common, Joss Stone, Anne Hathaway, and Carrie Underwood are just some of the famous vegans and vegetarians who regularly appear in People magazine. And also Miley Cyrus.
9. Look sexy and be sexy: Vegans tend to be thinner than meat-eaters and have more energy, which is perfect for late-night romps with your special someone. (Guys: The cholesterol and saturated animal fat found in meat, eggs, and dairy products don’t just clog the arteries to your heart. Over time, they impede blood flow to other vital organs as well.) Plus, what’s sexier than someone who is not only mega-hot but also compassionate?
10. Pigs are smarter than your dog: Although most people are less familiar with pigs, chickens, fish, and cows than they are with dogs and cats, animals used for food are every bit as intelligent and able to suffer as the animals who share our homes are. Pigs can learn to play video games, and chickens are so smart that their intelligence has been compared by scientists to that of monkeys. " I didn't write this but I agree. Not to gross anybody but eggs are unfertilized eggs, sounds familiar in women.

 

[nebulaJP]

But if some meat product is already on the shelf, none of that matters, the animal is already died. And I have no idea how much an animal is aware of the situation, if they perfer to be outside and cold/hungry, or inside, warm and been feed all the time. Some pet rabits/dogs/pigs are so fat they can't even move, yet they seems to be very happy (as long as they are feed)

If it is on the shelf and you buy it, you are creating a demand for it, and therefore they will breed more animals to meet that demand. In the factory farm system, breeding sows exhibit signs of psychosis from standing in one spot all day unable to move or turn around. Obviously for them, a happy life is more than just food. If you don't believe me, here are some videos:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gestation+crates

 

[oi_antz]

And also convenience. But why does their motivation matter?

I think it matters to God what a person's motivations are, and we need to remember that He is the one who approves of us and who convicts us of sin. He is the one who looks at the heart, to determine the purity of a person's motivation. His judgements are always relative to the person's understanding for this reason: that only He is perfect, and due to our natural state of being learning creatures, we are going to do things from a position of ignorance. However, once we become aware of right and wrong, and we choose to do wrong because it benefits us, then we deserve to be convicted. Likewise, probably you should accept that there are things you do that He would rather you don't do, but that He would not hold it against you because you do not have the necessary understanding, and so you are not deliberately doing sin.

Regardless of motivation, they are funding the unrighteous treatment of animals and if they don't know this it is because they don't want to know.

Is it impossible to produce pork profitably without sow stalls? I don't think so. I also don't think that producing pork without sow stalls would make the pork product too expensive for the same consumers to buy. I think that in this particular case, you should be looking at the farmers who have constructed their moral conscience in order to believe that it is acceptable to treat animals this way.

If the Bible is the word of God and it tells you what is "godly", isn't that the same as God saying "do the following..."?

I do understand the phrase "Word of God" differently than you do. John chapter one describes that Jesus Christ is the Word of God. It says the Word of God was with God in the beginning, even though we know the bible was written some time after that. Furthermore, Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 5:39-40, that even if a person studies the scriptures most diligently, it does not mean they are accepting the Word of God. (Refer to John 1:14).

So I rather find it is most reasonable to read that king Soloman was writing his own observation in this proverb, as a morsel of wisdom, so that those considering it might gain some valuable understanding of truth.

Does everything have to be in form of a "commandment"?

No, of course not! If someone who aspires to be a godly person is to read this proverb and it comes to mind that they are treating others in a cruel way, then they might be convicted in their conscience. From that time on, their conscience will remind them of their poor behaviour, and then if they should choose to carry on doing what they know they should not do, then God sees that their heart is not purely interested in being a good person. Jesus said every one of us will have to give account for our words and actions. Therefore, if we do wrong in ignorance, we will be able to say that we didn't know we were doing wrong; whereas if we do what is wrong while knowing it, then we will not have any good excuse for our sin.

Then how about the following commandments concerning the physical and psychological wellbeing of livestock (Link)?:

"Under Jewish law, animals have some of the same rights as humans do. Animals rest on Shabbat, as humans do (Ex. 20:10). We are forbidden to muzzle an ox to prevent it from eating while it is working in the field (Deut. 25:4), just as we must allow human workers to eat from the produce they are harvesting (Deut. 23:25-26). Animals can partake of the produce from fields lying fallow during the sabbatical year (Ex. 23:11).

Several commandments demonstrate concern for the physical or psychological suffering of animals. We may not plow a field using animals of different species (Deut. 22:10), because this would be a hardship to the animals. We are required to relieve an animal of its burden, even if we do not like its owner, do not know its owner, or even if it is ownerless (Ex. 23:5; Deut. 22:4). We are not permitted to kill an animal in the same day as its young (Lev. 22:28), and are specifically commanded to send away a mother bird when taking the eggs (Deut 22:6-7), because of the psychological distress this would cause the animal. In fact, the Torah specifically says that a person who sends away the mother bird will be rewarded with long life, precisely the same reward that is given for honoring mother and father (Ex. 20:12; Deut. 5:16), and indeed for observing the whole Torah (Deut. 4:40). This should give some indication of the importance of this law."

Oh yeah, I know, it is really really sad that the world generally does not observe and obey what God wants. I have recently began observing the Sabbath day. Most Christians don't do this. It is truly a glorious day, and most people have no idea how wonderful it is to have a holy day!

 

[nebulaJP]

Is it impossible to produce pork profitably without sow stalls? I don't think so. I also don't think that producing pork without sow stalls would make the pork product too expensive for the same consumers to buy. I think that in this particular case, you should be looking at the farmers who have constructed their moral conscience in order to believe that it is acceptable to treat animals this way.

There is no point in blaming animal agribusiness (or the government) for factory farming. There is demand for inexpensive animal products and the industry meets that demand. There is not so much demand for humanely produced animal products. So, that is why I “look at” (or blame) the 95% of the population that is too lazy, apathetic or uncaring to adjust their lifestyle in any way (i.e. go vegan or only eat humanely produced animal products or game meat).

By humanely produced, I mean that animals are able to engage in their natural behaviors, like this. Domestic animals have been allowed to engage in their natural behaviors since the beginning of the domestication of animals. It is only since the 1960s and the popularization of McDonald's and other fast food restaurants that these factory methods were put into place, which deprive the animals of engaging in anything they enjoy.

 

[oi_antz]

There is no point in blaming animal agribusiness (or the government) for factory farming. There is demand for inexpensive animal products and the industry meets that demand. There is not so much demand for humanely produced animal products. So, that is why I “look at” (or blame) the 95% of the population that is too lazy, apathetic or uncaring to adjust their lifestyle in any way (i.e. go vegan or only eat humanely produced animal products or game meat).

By humanely produced, I mean that animals are able to engage in their natural behaviors, like this. Domestic animals have been allowed to engage in their natural behaviors since the beginning of the domestication of animals. It is only since the 1960s and the popularization of McDonald's and other fast food restaurants that these factory methods were put into place, which deprive the animals of engaging in anything they enjoy.

How much extra cost do you think it incurs to produce meat ethically, the way you suggest? Do you acknowledge there is a greater difference between that difference and the amount that is charged for it?

 

[nebulaJP]

How much extra cost do you think it incurs to produce meat ethically, the way you suggest? Do you acknowledge there is a greater difference between that difference and the amount that is charged for it?

I don't know how much it costs to produce ethical meat, or understand the second question. Are you asking me if humane meat can be profitable? If so, I guess. At a grocery store I go to, the most expensive grade of the store brand eggs are organic and cage free and are $3.99/dozen and this grocery store also carries a "humane brand" of eggs that are about $3.45/half dozen, so it's quite a bit more, almost twice as much but if people want humanely produced animal products they will pay it. This is from that brand's website:

Our farms are appropriate in scale.
Organic Valley animals are raised on some of the smallest farms in America. In addition to high quality pasture and attentive care that size allows unparalleled knowledge of the animals, whose names and personalities help forge the relationships that define our farms and shape our philosophy. We believe CROPP farmers also enjoy a higher quality of life because of their connection to their herds.

This brand seems somewhat legit but it would be better and cheaper to get humanely raised animal products at a farmer's market or at the farms themselves.

 

[oi_antz]

I don't know how much it costs to produce ethical meat, or understand the second question. Are you asking me if humane meat can be profitable? If so, I guess. At a grocery store I go to, the most expensive grade of the store brand eggs are organic and cage free and are $3.99/dozen and this grocery store also carries a "humane brand" of eggs that are about $3.45/half dozen, so it's quite a bit more, almost twice as much but if people want humanely produced animal products they will pay it. This is from that brand's website:

Our farms are appropriate in scale.
Organic Valley animals are raised on some of the smallest farms in America. In addition to high quality pasture and attentive care that size allows unparalleled knowledge of the animals, whose names and personalities help forge the relationships that define our farms and shape our philosophy. We believe CROPP farmers also enjoy a higher quality of life because of their connection to their herds.

This brand seems somewhat legit but it would be better and cheaper to get humanely raised animal products at a farmer's market or at the farms themselves.

I was aiming to show how the farmers who choose to make their stock suffer are doing so to maximise their profit, but that their market would not suffer nor their profit be worthless if they were to afford some necessary comfort to their stock. I was also drawing attention to the idea that the ones who buy ethical meat are willing to pay for it regardless of the price, and when that is exploited as it is with organic produce, then it makes the option less available to those who might care a bit, but who also need to make their money go far enough.