F-22 Invincible, Maybe not?

[LogicChristian]

This raises questions on the F-22's dogfighting abilities. If an F/A-18 can get a great lock on the Raptor like that, then how would the Raptor face the likes of the latest thrust vectored flankers, which are much more suited to dogfighting than the F/A-18's if the Flankers manage the transition from BVR to WVR ?

These two pictures say nothing of the context of the situation. US forces often fight in constricted engagement conditions for training purposes. Cope India and Red Flag are perfect examples.

Again, this doesn't really prove much, if anything at all. In training, two pictures rarely ever give conclusive data as to the content or context of a given training mission.

You didn't even provide a source. Did you take these pictures yourself?

 

[srev2004]

These two pictures say nothing of the context of the situation. US forces often fight in constricted engagement conditions for training purposes. Cope India and Red Flag are perfect examples.

Again, this doesn't really prove much, if anything at all. In training, two pictures rarely ever give conclusive data as to the content or context of a given training mission.

You didn't even provide a source. Did you take these pictures yourself?

This is an F-18 locking on to a F-22. F-18 w/o thrust vectoring locked onto a F-22 with thrust vectoring. This is pretty weak in my opinion because the Sukhois 30-MKI can evade F-18 lock on.

This gun kill picture is from the HUD recorder of a VFA-11 Super Hornet taken during a Red Air exercise. The black box on the top left is an event marker to show that the trigger was squeezed.

 

[LogicChristian]

This is an F-18 locking on to a F-22. F-18 w/o thrust vectoring locked onto a F-22 with thrust vectoring. This is pretty weak in my opinion because the Sukhois 30-MKI can evade F-18 lock on.

This gun kill picture is from the HUD recorder of a VFA-11 Super Hornet taken during a Red Air exercise. The black box on the top left is an event marker to show that the trigger was squeezed.

What is the context of the excercise?

What restrictions was the F-22A pilot flying under?

What restrictions was the Super Hornet pilot flying under?

These pictures answer none of these very basic questions. Red Flag excercises are regularly and quite often flown with restrictions placed on one or both planes.

 

[srev2004]

What is the context of the excercise?

What restrictions was the F-22A pilot flying under?

What restrictions was the Super Hornet pilot flying under?

These pictures answer none of these very basic questions. Red Flag excercises are regularly and quite often flown with restrictions placed on one or both planes.

You can't really restrict the engines and airframe or the flight avionics. hence if a F-18 can get a lock on on a F-22, it is perfectly possible that a Sukhoi can get one also in WVR.

 

[LogicChristian]

You can't really restrict the engines and airframe or the flight avionics. hence if a F-18 can get a lock on on a F-22, it is perfectly possible that a Sukhoi can get one also in WVR.

I don't think you know what I'm talking about anymore.

The pilots manually do it in training all the time. How do you think they limit Top Gun pilots to 400 kts in training scenarios? Flying with limits on the aircraft in training has nothing to do with limiting the engines or airframe or flight avionics. It has to do with what you order the pilots to do for a given training situation.

Two photographs and no reference or supporting data just don't say much about an engagement.

 

[srev2004]

http://www.alert5.com/2006/04/pictures-pilot-trapped-for-5h-in.html

Pictures: Pilot trapped for 5h in cockpit of USAF's new $135m F-22A Raptor after canopy jams A F-22A Raptor, 03-041, suffered a canopy failure with a pilot inside on Apr. 10. Firefighters had to cut open the canopy with a chainsaw to free him after 5 hours.

Seems like a very advanced jet.

http://lln-videos.metacafe.com/ItemFiles/%5BFrom%20www.metacafe.com%5D%2043013.264761.8.wmv

Can't even take off correctly, yet you claim it's most advanced. Even the LCA never crashed

 

[LogicChristian]

double post

 

[LogicChristian]

http://www.alert5.com/2006/04/pictures-pilot-trapped-for-5h-in.html

Pictures: Pilot trapped for 5h in cockpit of USAF's new $135m F-22A Raptor after canopy jams A F-22A Raptor, 03-041, suffered a canopy failure with a pilot inside on Apr. 10. Firefighters had to cut open the canopy with a chainsaw to free him after 5 hours.

Seems like a very advanced jet.

http://lln-videos.metacafe.com/ItemFiles/%5BFrom%20www.metacafe.com%5D%2043013.264761.8.wmv

Can't even take off correctly, yet you claim it's most advanced. Even the LCA never crashed

All this is to be expected since the F-22A didn't enter squadron service until just a couple of months ago. Before then, the F-22A was a test aircraft, subject to the same faults and accidents a test plane is subject to. Also, your second link doesn't work.

How many MiG crashes has the IAF had in the past 5-7 years again? The LCA might not have had a crash yet, but the MiG-21s it replaces are some of the worst death traps of any aircraft in the world. Also, the LCA is nowhere near as far along in its development course as the F-22A, and is at least an order of magnitude more simple.

http://www.warbirdsofindia.com/Crashes/crpage.php?qacid=AL&qafdb=IAF&fmdate=01&fmmonth=01&fmyear=1991&todate=31&tomonth=12&toyear=2000
http://www.warbirdsofindia.com/Crashes/crpage.php?qacid=AL&qafdb=IAF&fmdate=01&fmmonth=01&fmyear=2001&todate=31&tomonth=12&toyear=2005

Most of these accidents are a lot worse than a stuck canopy.

And you still haven't provided any supporting data for your "dogfight" pictures. Showing isolated examples of problems isn't the same as showing that a weapons system doesn't work. Here's an example.

http://www.1001crash.com/index-page-video-lg-2-tc-3.html#

If I followed your example, I could say that the Su-30MKI isn't as advanced as India says it is and has a ton of problems from this video.

Can you show me anything that says the F-22 requires considerably more man hours of maintenance per flight hour than other USAF or other fighter aircraft or that its accident rate is appreciably higher? So far, you haven't presented a shred of evidence that would demonstrate either.

 

[LogicChristian]

For a more balanced overview of the Raptor after its IOC and first deployment.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/april2006/0406raptor.asp

[FONT=arial,verdana,helvetica,sans serif][FONT=arial,verdana,helvetica,sans serif][FONT=arial,verdana,helvetica,sans serif]The F-22s came right out of their four-and-a-half-hour cross-country flight and went directly to simulated combat, first engaging “red air” F-15Cs in air-to-air battle and then switching to ground attack themselves. They finally landed at Nellis after having been airborne for nearly seven hours.

Best combat aircraft in the world? It sure looks like it. Also note that the maintenance problems that are mentioned in the article are VERY minor compared to the maintenance problems that entailed the entry of the F-14, F-15, and F-16 into the arsenal. The article mentions the F-22 currently needing about as much maintenance support as the F-15C, but that's only because the F-22A is only being broken in and is very early on in its career.
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

 

[srev2004]

Bottom line is the F-22 is overhyped and you can't use a hypothetically best aircraft to use in an arguement. When they beat the Sukhois 30-MKI or the future PAK-FA in a exercise or real combat situation substanstially I'll admit there are superior for their time period. But just using media hype to make it seem invincible is not good.

 

[LogicChristian]

Bottom line is the F-22 is overhyped and you can't use a hypothetically best aircraft to use in an arguement. When they beat the Sukhois 30-MKI or the future PAK-FA in a exercise or real combat situation substanstially I'll admit there are superior for their time period. But just using media hype to make it seem invincible is not good.

Funny, neither Su-30 MKI nor PAK-FA are even designed to meet the F-22A's specification or capability.

How is the quote I just gave in my last post media hype? That whole article is full of anything but media hype if you'd actually care to read it.

Furthermore, the media isn't hyping the F-22 to be invincible, they are just stating the truth, which is that it is the most advanced fighter aircraft in the world either operationally or in development.

Your best claims that the F-22 is overhyped are two pictures from a single engagement without any contextual information, and a stuck canopy. You then ignore any posts or articles to the contrary that show the fighter in a more balanced light.

 

[srev2004]

Funny, neither Su-30 MKI nor PAK-FA are even designed to meet the F-22A's specification or capability.

How is the quote I just gave in my last post media hype? That whole article is full of anything but media hype if you'd actually care to read it.

Furthermore, the media isn't hyping the F-22 to be invincible, they are just stating the truth, which is that it is the most advanced fighter aircraft in the world either operationally or in development.

Your best claims that the F-22 is overhyped are two pictures from a single engagement without any contextual information, and a stuck canopy. You then ignore any posts or articles to the contrary that show the fighter in a more balanced light.

Has the F-22 shot down an MKI? What do you know about the PAK-FA?

 

[LogicChristian]

Has the F-22 shot down an MKI? What do you know about the PAK-FA?

An F-15 has never shot down a MiG-19, but I can tell you which would probably win in a fight.

I know that every proposal for PAK-FA made public has so far been a light or medium fighter, and nothing on the scale of the F-22 in terms of size, range, speed, or capability.

PAK-FA is years off at best (if the project doesn't die, like the MFI) and the SU-30MKI has never been advertised or demonstrated to have the capability of the F-22A.

 

[srev2004]

An F-15 has never shot down a MiG-19, but I can tell you which would probably win in a fight.

I know that every proposal for PAK-FA made public has so far been a light or medium fighter, and nothing on the scale of the F-22 in terms of size, range, speed, or capability.

PAK-FA is years off at best (if the project doesn't die, like the MFI) and the SU-30MKI has never been advertised or demonstrated to have the capability of the F-22A.

The PAK-FA is being developed as a F-22A killer.

 

[LogicChristian]

The PAK-FA is being developed as a F-22A killer.

Uh... not exactly.

The numbers built, the size and planned specs of the plane make it look far more like a rough F-35 equivalent than an aircraft superior to the F-22A.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/pak-fa.htm

http://www.deagel.com/pandora/pak-fa_pm00276001.aspx

The 20,000 kg weight planned for the aircraft is far closer to the F-35's 22,000 kg max takeoff weight than the F-22's 30,000kg+. The planned 1200 km range is inferior to both the F-22 and F-35. Furthermore, it's extremely unclear where Russia will get the money to fund the development of the aircraft. India's helping some, but not enough to carry the funding. Russia's military is already paying for a number of expensive projects like the Topol-M and Bulava missiles, as well asthe fielding of an SSBN. Russia and India combined don't have the money right now to fully fund the development of a fifth generation fighter.

Also, when will the plane be fielded? A 2009-2010 IOC seems pretty unlikely when there's not even word on a prototype as of 2006.

 

[srev2004]

What's amusing to me is that you know the weigh class of the PAK-FA when the design itself is still not completed by Sukhoi for consideration from the Indians. there are two variants to the PAK-FA. The twin engine and single engine variants and both are mid heavy size fighters. The PAK-FA is a ramjet fighter, the F-22 is still a turbo fan fighter. The PAK-FA uses liquified oxygen as fuel, hence making it lighter and more maneuverable than the F-22. It has 3d thrust vectoring, supercruise, more internal capacity/ and more external payload capacity than the F-22. this I know for sure, because the Sukhoi firm said at the very least it will match the F-22 payload and performance.

F-22 and PAK-FA models compared. See the Size similarities. The brown one is the PAK-FA and from size similarities, the PAK-FA looks bigger.

forward swept winged concept :

Still deciding on the wings.

 

[srev2004]

I don't know where you got your figures.... Sukhoi T-50 is clearly 30,000 + max payload also.

 

[srev2004]

 

[LogicChristian]

What's amusing to me is that you know the weigh class of the PAK-FA when the design itself is still not completed by Sukhoi for consideration from the Indians.

The basic class of the fighter has already been decided though. And given the primitive nature of Russians AESA tech currently as well as the specified weight, range, and capability, this plane isn't being designed as an F-22 killer. It's designed to be a low cost

there are two variants to the PAK-FA. The twin engine and single engine variants and both are mid heavy size fighters. The PAK-FA is a ramjet fighter, the F-22 is still a turbo fan fighter. The PAK-FA uses liquified oxygen as fuel, hence making it lighter and more maneuverable than the F-22. It has 3d thrust vectoring, supercruise, more internal capacity/ and more external payload capacity than the F-22. this I know for sure, because the Sukhoi firm said at the very least it will match the F-22 payload and performance.

Credible source?

F-22 and PAK-FA models compared. See the Size similarities. The brown one is the PAK-FA and from size similarities, the PAK-FA looks bigger.

Wait, so you're giving us a size comparison here but earlier you said the design itself is not completed? Which is it? Is the thing as big as the F-22, or the design not completed?

I don't know where you got your figures.... Sukhoi T-50 is clearly 30,000 + max payload also.

I showed you where I got my figures, I provided links. Also, it's odd that you lambast me for providing weight figures when you say the PAK-FA's "design itself is not completed" and then give your own weight figures further down. Which is it? Is the design not completed? Or are you arguing that it is 30,000 and not 20,000 kg?

Here's another, it appears India has its own questions about the T-50.

http://kuku.sawf.org/Articles/5122.aspx

Also, you still haven't answered. Where's the funding coming from? How are they actually going to have the fighter ready by 2010? It doesn't matter whether PAK-FA.

 

[srev2004]

The basic class of the fighter has already been decided though. And given the primitive nature of Russians AESA tech currently as well as the specified weight, range, and capability, this plane isn't being designed as an F-22 killer. It's designed to be a low cost


Credible source?


Wait, so you're giving us a size comparison here but earlier you said the design itself is not completed? Which is it? Is the thing as big as the F-22, or the design not completed?


I showed you where I got my figures, I provided links. Also, it's odd that you lambast me for providing weight figures when you say the PAK-FA's "design itself is not completed" and then give your own weight figures further down. Which is it? Is the design not completed? Or are you arguing that it is 30,000 and not 20,000 kg?

Here's another, it appears India has its own questions about the T-50.

http://kuku.sawf.org/Articles/5122.aspx

Also, you still haven't answered. Where's the funding coming from? How are they actually going to have the fighter ready by 2010? It doesn't matter whether PAK-FA.

One thing to remember : INDIA is getting filthy rich at a fast pace right now. It is now officially lending money to the USA. It has 160 billion in public reserves and 1 trillion in Gold reserves.