Eye-opener

[ValleyGal]

Here's an eye-opener on the economics of sex. Should make for some interesting discussion. It's less than ten minutes and is packed with information...
The Economics of Sex - YouTube

 

[LinkH]

Here's an eye-opener on the economics of sex. Should make for some interesting discussion. It's less than ten minutes and is packed with information...
The Economics of Sex - YouTube

The video says what men are offering in the marriage market has diminished. What women are offering has diminished, too. It used to be that virginity was an expectation before marriage, especially for the female gender. The idea of women being in solidarity to increase the value of sex makes sense, but the way to do that is to maintain virginity before marriage, not to shorten the duration cohabitations and other things mentioned in the video.

Birth control did not create Shumpterian shocks to all economic markets for sex as described in this video, not to the same degree. There are cultures where birth control is available, but it is expected that it will be used between married couples only. Virginity is not so rare in Indonesia, or did not seem to be when I was there last. At least there was a social expectation for both brides and grooms to be virgins. Birth control pills don't have to unravel the whole system. There were a lot of other social factors going on in the US at that time. The culture was becoming more secular (e.g. prayer had been taken out of schools.) The feminist movement had taken off. There was a very large population of youth who had all been educated together with people of the same age creating a huge youth culture.

Something else I was thinking is that if a woman wants to increase her value for marriage, one way to do that is product differentiation, to use a marketing analogy. Sex are not the only 'product features'. There are other aspects of character and personality. But in regard to sex, either virginity or celibacy (if virginity is lost) can be product differentiation for which 'consumers' would be willing to compete. There are niche products, too, that are valuable to specific consumers. Certain Christian young men highly value female virginity. For those men, a woman's 'market value' goes up, and the same can be true for men who are virgins. Also, if a woman is living a celibate life, even if she fornicated in the past, men looking for faithful wives may prefer her over promiscuous women.

 

[ValleyGal]

The video talked about the large group of men who are not marriage minded, and the small group of men who are....contrasted with the small group of women who are not marriage minded and the large group who are. In group 1, where there are a lot of men sharing fewer women, there is still a lot of supply - enough to fill the demand. But in group 2, where there are a lot of women and few men, competition is very high for women. So men are losing their competitive edge, and women are both becoming more competitive and also can't afford to be choosy. Women also value celibacy, faithfulness, etc...but when a man moves from the promiscuous side to the side that wants to marry, his past becomes an issue - she does not like it, but since there's so much competition, she has to accept it anyway, and hope it will work out. One of the problems, though, is that when he's had a taste of all the variety out there, how satisfied will he be with just one? In this way, yes, what (a lot of) men have to offer is diminished, but women settle for it because the competition is so high.

 

[akmom]

I agree that contraception probably played a big part in diminishing the commitment previously attached to sex. And yes, the larger "supply" pool and longer biological clock gives men an advantage in the marriage market.

But I think there's another component to the equation that the video didn't acknowledge. Yes, women do have to compete harder for a smaller selection of men. But I think some women use a different tactic and poach men from the "other" market - men who are not actually interested in marriage. They do this by bait-and-switch, claiming to be in the "fun" market (or whatever you call it) and then end up pregnant. After all, women have the upper hand on birth control, since they have many more options than men, including less visible and less permanent methods. So trickery is actually very difficult to avoid in the "fun" market. And as long as a man has financial resources, and especially a social image to protect, she may very well be able to procure marriage from a pregnancy, or at least many of the same benefits as marriage (financial support, a co-parent, and of course motherhood).

I can prove that women do actually do this on a large scale. Hormonal birth control has a 92-99% rate of effectiveness. Barrier methods are 85-98% effective. (These figures are from Planned Parenthood, ranging from typical use to perfect use.) In the United States as of 2012, 40.7% of all births were to unwed mothers (according to the CDC). In a worst case scenario, if all unwed Americans were using birth control (even imperfectly), we would expect 15% of births to be to unwed mothers. So what accounts for the extra 25% of unplanned births that people so often blame on birth control failure?

I think it's pretty likely trickery. I doubt that most men in the "fun" market would risk pregnancy by knowingly forgoing birth control, and I doubt many women intended to be fully autonomous single mothers. So yes, some women might "settle" for less marriageable men, but I think many women (like 25%) are settling for men who don't even want marriage. And I think if technology catches up for men, and they gain access to a discrete, temporary birth control method like women have, that birth rates will drop drastically.

 

[Observer]

Sex had nothing to do with me getting engaged to my husband. We hadn't even met each other face to face when we were engaged long distance. If he wanted sex, he could have just gone out and found someone to have sex with. I don't think sex is any kind of drive to get married for most men. Usually it's just that they fall in love, as most people male and female do at some point, and they feel like they want to marry that person as a gesture or to affirm their love or whatever. Sex is a big part of relationships/marriage, but most men where I live are not Christian so they don't recognise any reason to get married so you can have sex and it not be a sin

 

[eatenbylocusts]

In a worst case scenario, if all unwed Americans were using birth control (even imperfectly), we would expect 15% of births to be to unwed mothers. So what accounts for the extra 25% of unplanned births that people so often blame on birth control failure?

I think it's pretty likely trickery. I doubt that most men in the "fun" market would risk pregnancy by knowingly forgoing birth control, and I doubt many women intended to be fully autonomous single mothers. So yes, some women might "settle" for less marriageable men, but I think many women (like 25%) are settling for men who don't even want marriage. And I think if technology catches up for men, and they gain access to a discrete, temporary birth control method like women have, that birth rates will drop drastically.

This made me laugh. You are forgetting that people do things in the heat of passion and logic is thrown out the window. I dated a few "Christian" men who knew I wanted to remain celibate until marriage. I can think of 2 where things got a little heated and they attempted to have intercourse and I had to physically stop them. There was no contraception available.

 

[akmom]

The "heat of passion" explanation would remain relatively constant over time. The out-of-wedlock birth rate in the U.S. was 5.3% in 1960, and but rose to 36.8% in 2005. Either people had less temptation 50 years ago, or the presumption of risk is lower due to the expectation of birth control.

 

[LinkH]

The "heat of passion" explanation would remain relatively constant over time. The out-of-wedlock birth rate in the U.S. was 5.3% in 1960, and but rose to 36.8% in 2005. Either people had less temptation 50 years ago, or the presumption of risk is lower due to the expectation of birth control.

There are too many variables and too many alternative explanations. I'd imagine the ones who get pregnant are unlikely to have been the ones to use birth control, or at least use it properly. Social acceptance of premarital sex has to factor into this somewhere. Was the pill as commonly available in 1960 as it was in 1969? Availability of OTC birth control and public awareness about it would also be a factor.

 

[ProudMomxmany]

From what I have seen with my kids...marriage is not valued for many reasons, sex is just one of them. There's a fear of commitment, seeing parents' marriages dissolve in divorce, there's a lack of NEEDING to get married (especially for women) because of economic independence, a lack of support for married couples.

Honestly, I can see no real advantage to marriage (says the woman who's been married her entire adult life) anymore, either financially, emotionally, or in any other way. The desire of some factions of our society who long for a return to "traditional" values (which I think exist solely in someone's imagination) put way too much pressure on young singles to make sure they have the fairy tale (or Leave It To Beaver) life. The whole idea of the SAHM, the white collar dad, the 2 smiling children and a white picket fence is something that does not happen in real life and to try to put pressure on people to strive for that sort of false idea puts them in a position where the reality of struggles, financial and otherwise leaves them disillusioned.

I don't know what the solution to this is, but a constant yammering about "the good old days" is immediately seen as baloney by any student of history.

 

[Darkhorse]

There are too many variables and too many alternative explanations. I'd imagine the ones who get pregnant are unlikely to have been the ones to use birth control, or at least use it properly. Social acceptance of premarital sex has to factor into this somewhere. Was the pill as commonly available in 1960 as it was in 1969? Availability of OTC birth control and public awareness about it would also be a factor.

If I remember correctly, birth-control pills became available to the U. S. public starting in 1960. They were much more readily available in 1969, including being dispensed by the health services of some major universities.

Diaphragms were available long before 1960, and IUDs were becoming popular in the mid-1960s, but these required fitting or insertion (respectively) by a doctor.

Condoms were about the only OTC birth control available in the 1960s, and they were an "ask for" item in drugstores (although some states allowed condom machine sales). They were not displayed on racks in Wal-Mart! Spermicidal foam and sponges hit the market much later.

 

[christsoccer]

I'm in the minority when it comes to males (marriage minded, not interested in casual sex) and even rarer since I have not lost my physical purity and do not plan to until my wedding night, if and when that happens.

still... very interesting video

 

[akmom]

There are too many variables and too many alternative explanations. I'd imagine the ones who get pregnant are unlikely to have been the ones to use birth control, or at least use it properly.

Well obviously the ones who get pregnant are unlikely to be on birth control. But the number of women on birth control today is a lot higher than the number in 1960, so why is unwed pregnancy more common?

My point was that circa 1960, most women were not on hormonal birth control and men knew it. So presumably they took precautions to prevent pregnancy (such as abstinence). I can believe that 5% of the time "heat of passion" results in pregnancy. So the 1960s figure is consistent with true accidents.

What I cannot believe is that men today are more cavalier about accidental pregnancy. Why would "heat of passion" suddenly account for 36% of pregnancies? Are today's men just unthinking animals? No, I believe there is a presumption that women are using birth control when they are not. That's why we see an increase in the number of unplanned pregnancies, rather than a decrease, with the availability of birth control.

 

[CounselorForChrist]

Sex had nothing to do with me getting engaged to my husband. We hadn't even met each other face to face when we were engaged long distance. If he wanted sex, he could have just gone out and found someone to have sex with. I don't think sex is any kind of drive to get married for most men. Usually it's just that they fall in love, as most people male and female do at some point, and they feel like they want to marry that person as a gesture or to affirm their love or whatever. Sex is a big part of relationships/marriage, but most men where I live are not Christian so they don't recognise any reason to get married so you can have sex and it not be a sin

Thats me and my wife. We were in a LDR and someone made a comment about how do they know I wasn't in it to have sex with her. Its like if I wanted sex its not hard to find. I certainly wouldn't spend thousands to go have sex overseas lol.

While we both enjoy sex, it was certainly not why we married. If anything we didn't even talk about sex really because we didn not want to tempt the other to make a mistake before hand.

No, I believe there is a presumption that women are using birth control when they are not. That's why we see an increase in the number of unplanned pregnancies, rather than a decrease, with the availability of birth control.

That would seems a bit weird to me. If the man assume the woman is using birth control, wouldn't the woman that knows shes not as they are about to have sex say "Hey you need a condom, I'm not on birth control!"? And if she doesn't say anything then I guess they are both to blame for not saying anything.

Also from what I've seen neither seems to care about birth control either way. THey just want to have fun or they do something stupid such a a few young pregnant teens were talking and said they decided to do the "pull out" method because it works fine since they want to have natural sex without something in the way.

And if you have never had sex how do you even know how to do that method? Odds are you don't even realize how sex works in general. Hence they get pregnant because the lack of education on what they are doing.