Extreme Cessationism Is A Pseudo-Christian Cult

Status
Not open for further replies.

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,819
10,795
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟833,852.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
It is one thing to have doubts about how some groups involve themselves in the gifts of the Spirit, and the way they speak in tongues and guarantee healing for sick people. There are honest doubters who are spooked and put off by the lunatic fringe of the Charismatic movement. I understand where they are coming from and I firmly believe that they do want the best that Christ can give them, and as they honestly seek the Lord, I am sure that the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth to them in due time.

But there is a group of what I call "extreme" Cessationists who are so brainwashed against Pentecostalsim and the Charismatic movement, that they are prepared to insert additions into Paul's teaching that aren't there, such as Paul using tongues to preach the Gospel, which is totally missing from Acts and Paul's teaching. It is because of their extreme prejudice against tongues, drummed into them by their mentors, that they read 1 Corinthians 14, but comprehend it in a way that normal people would never do. They are prepared to change the meanings of words to suit their prejudice, and depart from standard exegesis practice to make Paul say things that he never said. They are also prepared to define Paul's teaching of tongues from one verse in the chapter, yet ignore all the others. They try to make out that tongues is evil and contains blasphemy, when Paul never taught that. They say that tongues is not for personal prayer, when anyone with normal comprehension skills can quite easily see that Paul spoke in tongues extensively, yet in the church he didn't, but gave intelligible teaching instead, showing that Paul used tongues extensively in personal prayer when he wasn't in church. They refuse to believe 1 Corinthians 14:2 when Paul says that the person who prays in tongues speaks to God, which is prayer, and only God is able to understand him. They say that self-edification is selfish and deficient, in spite of Jude saying to build ourselves up in our most holy faith, praying in the Spirit. The fact is that every time we pray and study the Scriptures, we are edifying ourselves.

These "extreme" Cessationists are those who deliberately deceive and lie to unsuspecting Pentecostal groups by invading meetings, giving tongues messages in Latin or Hebrew, and then when someone gives an interpretation, pours ridicule at him. In this, they are prepared to blatantly misrepresent the Holy Spirit in their lie. I don't believe that such people are genuinely saved. It is the same of liars who tell seekers of tongues not to speak it because they will be speaking blasphemy, and will give false examples of people who spoke in tongues which were understood as such. The Scripture says that liars, deceivers and hypocrites like these Cessationists will not enter heaven.

I have no respect for such evil people. They are how Stephen described: "Uncircumcised in heart and ears; as their fathers (or mentors) resisted the Holy Spirit, so do you!" These religious hypocrites are still in the bonds of iniquity and show that they have no knowledge of who Jesus really is or who the Holy Spirit is.

The truth about tongues is:
A gift of the Holy Spirit
Speaking to God
Understood and appreciated by Him
Mysteries in the Spirit
Used in the church along with interpretation
Faith is the key for speaking and interpreting tongues
An important enhancement for private prayer
Is key to the activation of the other gifts of the Spirit
Is a key way to build up ones holy faith
Makes a believer sensitive to the leading of the Spirit
Is an expressive and articulate language, not learned
Is a world language that could be understood when God has a purpose for it to be understood.

There have been instances in church history where a foreign language has been miraculously bestowed on a preacher of the Gospel so he can be understood, but these were special miracles and not part of the normal use of tongues. St Francis of Assisi was given the French language to share the Gospel with a group of French people. There is the testimony of a woman being miraculously given the Italian language to share the Gospel to Italian immigrants to America who could not speak English. She retained that language for the rest of her life. There are other testimonies where the Holy Spirit has spoken directly to foreign people in church services through believers speaking in tongues in order to draw them to Christ. In one service a person gave a tongues message which was understood by a native speaker of the language, and someone else gave an interpretation which was exactly what was spoken in tongues, and the native speaker of the language acknowledged it. These are special miracles that God has performed through His grace, and because some people have had this happen, it doesn't mean that other speakers in tongues should think they can automatically do the same.
 
Last edited:

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,819
10,795
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟833,852.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Agreed.

I hadn't heard of the Latin "setup" thing before, that's low.
It is criminal. Something a unconverted religious hypocrite still in the grip of his sins would do.
 
Upvote 0

Sabertooth

Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints!
Site Supporter
Jul 25, 2005
10,509
7,068
62
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟961,695.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Someone interpreting Latin or Hebrew (in that way) is not even moving in interpretation of tongues in that instance --and they know it!
It would take two charlatans* to make that work.

*Extra credit: "charlatan" < Italian, "to babble"
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,819
10,795
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟833,852.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Someone interpreting Latin or Hebrew (in that way) is not even moving in interpretation of tongues in that instance --and they know it!
It would take two charlatans* to make that work.

*Extra credit: "charlatan" < Italian, "to babble"
The criminal part is the person who knows he is speaking ancient Hebrew as a tongues message, but the person interpreting is giving his interpretation by faith thinking that what he is hearing is an authentic tongues message. The person giving the fake tongues message is the scammer, and the unsuspecting person giving what he believes is an interpretation by faith is the victim who is being spiritually ripped off.
 
Upvote 0

Sabertooth

Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints!
Site Supporter
Jul 25, 2005
10,509
7,068
62
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟961,695.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
...but the person interpreting is giving his interpretation by faith thinking that what he is hearing is an authentic tongues message.
Natural & supernatural interpretation work differently.
The former works all of the time for a given language.
The latter only works on special occasions.
("I do not know that language, but I seem to, right now...")
 
  • Agree
Reactions: pdudgeon
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,819
10,795
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟833,852.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Natural & supernatural interpretation work differently.
The former works all of the time for a given language.
The latter only works on special occasions.
("I do not know that language, but I seem to, right now...")
For tongues and interpretation to work in the Spirit, both the tongues speaker and the interpreter need to do it by faith.

If the tongues speaker knows the language he is speaking and is doing it in order to deceive the group then he is not doing it in faith and therefore is not doing it in the Spirit but in the flesh, and is not pleasing God at all. In fact, he is lying to the Holy Spirit.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: pdudgeon
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
13,388
1,701
✟164,232.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
We always gotta be on the watch out when new members show up. Most people are really nice,... but we can't let our guard down. Nowadays there are people attempting to make a name for themselves and record it.

In our church setting, when we give space for The Holy Spirit to move, if a person begins to speak by The Spirit, I'm always praying in tongues quietly to myself and GOD alongside the message to make sure the speaker stays respondent to The Holy Spirit throughout the utterance, but also to ensure that no one is misusing the gifts in our church.

The big thing with utterances from The Holy Spirit is the edification. We should feel and know inside it is from GOD when the message is being spoken.
 
Upvote 0

Sabertooth

Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints!
Site Supporter
Jul 25, 2005
10,509
7,068
62
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟961,695.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
If the tongues speaker knows the language he is speaking and is doing it in order to deceive the group then he is not doing it in faith and therefore is not doing it in the Spirit but in the flesh, and is not pleasing God at all. In fact, he is lying to the Holy Spirit.
Agree, but it does not let a natural interpreter off the hook.

Suppose someone gives false tongues in ancient Hebrew.
Someone who is conversant in ancient Hebrew would certainly understand that message,
but it would be because they know ancient Hebrew (acquired through natural means);
not because they are moving in "interpretation of tongues."​
It is even okay to know another language naturally,
but it is not the charismatic gift, "interpretation of tongues."​

Someone moving in that gift would not be conversant in that language, otherwise.
 
Upvote 0

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
14,734
10,041
78
Auckland
✟380,360.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think the water is muddied by some congregations promoting the mass expression of personal tongues without any interpretation - the very thing Paul spoke against.

Also back in the day when the Baptism in the Spirit was pushed to the extent of being essential for salvation along with the 'evidence' i.e. speaking in tongues, there was immense pressure to manifest the gift which meant that false gifts were emerging and some leaders seemed unable to discern the difference.

But I had the opposite problem - being at a meeting with a few hundred people and not speaking in tongues at that stage - being told publicly I was blaspheming the HS because I wouldn't speak in tongues... Just as well His peace was all over me or I would have been shattered.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Original Happy Camper

One of GODS Children I am a historicist
Site Supporter
Mar 19, 2016
4,195
1,970
Alabama
✟486,806.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Pentecost

“And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”

The Holy Spirit, assuming the form of tongues of fire, rested upon those assembled. This was an emblem of the gift then bestowed on the disciples, which enabled them to speak with fluency languages with which they had heretofore been unacquainted. The appearance of fire signified the fervent zeal with which the apostles would labor and the power that would attend their work.

“There were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.” During the dispersion the Jews had been scattered to almost every part of the inhabited world, and in their exile they had learned to speak various languages. Many of these Jews were on this occasion in Jerusalem, attending the religious festivals then in progress. Every known tongue was represented by those assembled. This diversity of languages would have been a great hindrance to the proclamation of the gospel; God therefore in a miraculous manner supplied the deficiency of the apostles. The Holy Spirit did for them that which they could not have accomplished for themselves in a lifetime. They could now proclaim the truths of the gospel abroad, speaking with accuracy the languages of those for whom they were laboring. This miraculous gift was a strong evidence to the world that their commission bore the signet of Heaven. From this time forth the language of the disciples was pure, simple, and accurate, whether they spoke in their native tongue or in a foreign language.
http://centrowhite.org.br/files/ebooks/egw-english/books/The Acts of the Apostles.pdf

pg 38-40

God is not the author of confusion
 
Upvote 0

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Site Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
28,369
7,745
Canada
✟722,927.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
There are honest doubters who are spooked and put off by the lunatic fringe of the Charismatic movement.

But there is a group of what I call "extreme" Cessationists who are so brainwashed against Pentecostalsim and the Charismatic movement

I wouldn't say they're brainwashed against pentecostalism and the charismatic movement so easily. A lot of people are set against this expression of Christianity because of their experience of pentecostalism and the charismatic movement.

it is easy to say, it is the lunatic fringe, but I have found emotionally expressive congregations (regardless of label) manipulative. I have also found churches that are overly analytical and suspicious of emotionalisms, having manipulation issues also.

It is easy to be bitter and seek to destroy anything that seems demonic, which is what the cessationists in your below quoted example are trying to do. However, engaging in a diatribe against cessationists just gives them free publicity, and does nothing to address any issues.

These "extreme" Cessationists are those who deliberately deceive and lie to unsuspecting Pentecostal groups by invading meetings, giving tongues messages in Latin or Hebrew, and then when someone gives an interpretation, pours ridicule at him.

That's new. I'd say from experience that this is a discordian religious pattern. They make fun of everyone, while appearing to be a member of the group they are making fun of, and that is the whole point. (i.e. causing discord) Since mocking is the point, see proverbs for scriptures addressing.
 
Upvote 0

tturt

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 30, 2006
15,776
7,242
✟798,283.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The decent and in order applies to Scriptures such as the message in tongues for interpretation is only given up to three times I Cor 14:27. If there's no interpretation, then the speaker stops. So tongues may be interpreted and if they aren't, we're told how to proceed. Also, Scripture states"Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret." I Cor 14:13

There's a difference between tongues for interpretation and those that arent.

Tongues are a sign - To unbelievers By believers "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:" "And these signs shall follow them that believe; ...they shall speak with new tongues; (I Cor 14:22 and Mark 16:17) Unbelievers need to hear tongues but that doesn't mean that's all the service. "If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?" even with tongues the gospel still needs to be presented - that message could be in song only.

Also, some use "Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?" I Cor 12 The question mark wasn't given by God. There would not be any need for every believer to have the gift of tongues with interpretation at the same time.

Since they're a sign to unbelievers (I Cor 14:22) then they need to be spoken in the church. It was tongues that got their attention on the Day of Pentecost then they heard the gospel.

Then in Acts 10 after hearing the gospel, Cornelius and all with him spoke in ttongues to magnify God. These tongues are spoken to God. So why would they need to be interpreted since He understands what's being said (I Cor 14:2). Plus there was a time when they were gathered to speak in tongues.

If you look at the groups that received tongues in Scripture, it states "all" received (Acts 2:4; 4:31; 10:44; 19:2) It doesn't say the tongues were interpreted. Plus they all spoke at once and of course they were Biblical.

Asking the congregation to speak in tongues - "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.” I Cor 14:14-15 Why wouldn't this be applicable to a congregation?

God speaks to our spirits.

In Acts 4, "And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness." They were on one accord.

In some cases cessionists say tongues have ceased from I Cor 13:8 while not reading (seeing) the end of the same verse which states "whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away." So they're off in their understanding of the timing indicated in this verse.

We don't need to join in with cessationists.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tturt

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 30, 2006
15,776
7,242
✟798,283.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
gibbish ?
There's over 6500 languages and some are unusual including clicking sounds. But God isn't limited to those.

List of some Biblical purposes for tongues includes:
-Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
-Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit
-Warfare language - Tongues directly aimed at demonic strongholds
-Prophetic language - Addressing the whole church/preferably with interpretation
-Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
-Praise language - Magnifying the Lord in worship tongues
-Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not learned by the speaker).

Saint Steven gave permission to use his basic list.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

topher694

Go Turtle!
Jan 29, 2019
3,828
3,038
St. Cloud, MN
✟187,060.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The criminal part is the person who knows he is speaking ancient Hebrew as a tongues message, but the person interpreting is giving his interpretation by faith thinking that what he is hearing is an authentic tongues message. The person giving the fake tongues message is the scammer, and the unsuspecting person giving what he believes is an interpretation by faith is the victim who is being spiritually ripped off.
Or he is simply prophesying directly and cutting out the fake tongues.
 
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
13,388
1,701
✟164,232.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
"This is a safe house forum for those members who believe that the sign gifts are still active today. Criticizing or mocking members who hold that view is not allowed. If you wish to debate whether or not the sign gifts are still active today, please start a thread in the General Theology forum."

If you want to debate their usage, take it to the GT forum.
 
Upvote 0

topher694

Go Turtle!
Jan 29, 2019
3,828
3,038
St. Cloud, MN
✟187,060.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
"This is a safe house forum for those members who believe that the sign gifts are still active today. Criticizing or mocking members who hold that view is not allowed. If you wish to debate whether or not the sign gifts are still active today, please start a thread in the General Theology forum."

If you want to debate their usage, take it to the GT forum.
**sigh**
Every. Single. Time.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
13,388
1,701
✟164,232.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
**sigh**
Every. Single. Time.

Yea,... it's better that I just post the rules instead of fire off a report. Most of these folks just jump in forums without reading anything.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.