Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus

[santiagoamr]

Outside of The Church there is no salvation. Why???????

Is this view correct, and holds to the Doctrine of love, justice and mercy? How is salvation achieved for those that are not even Christan and that have heard the word of god? Do they go to heaven?

Thanks and love

Santiago

 

[catlover]

Outside of The Church there is no salvation. Why???????

Is this view correct, and holds to the Doctrine of love, justice and mercy? How is salvation achieved for those that are not even Christan and that have heard the word of god? Do they go to heaven?

Thanks and love

Santiago

Not all Roman Catholics agree on this matter.
I maybe mistaken and someone will correct me if I am wrong, but I don't even believe that isn't even an official teaching of the church...

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

There are many official Catholic statements like this (Unam Sanctum is another well known example) that seem to be radically reinterpreted by Catholics since Vatican II - often, it seems to me, in ways that seem impossible given the words.

While Catholics can't change their doctrine in this regard, I applaud the change in attitude.


My perspective...


Pax!


- Josiah

 

[IamAdopted]

No one can be saved unless they believe in and on the Lord Jesus.. For it is Christ whom saves.. For those whom hear His word and do not accpet His word they are rejecting Christ and no one that rejects Christ can be saved.. For salvation comes from Christ.. He is our saviour..He is the way the truth and the life and NO ONE comes to the father except through Him.. Not through the church but through Christ...

 

[lionroar0]

Outside of The Church there is no salvation. Why???????

Is this view correct, and holds to the Doctrine of love, justice and mercy? How is salvation achieved for those that are not even Christan and that have heard the word of god? Do they go to heaven?

Thanks and love

Any one who is baptised by the Trinitiriam formula is a memeber of the Church.

That is any one that is baptised in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Regardless of church affiliation.

Peace

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Outside of The Church there is no salvation. Why???????

Is this view correct, and holds to the Doctrine of love, justice and mercy? How is salvation achieved for those that are not even Christan and that have heard the word of god? Do they go to heaven?

Thanks and love

Santiago

Hi. What is the definition of a "church".

church occurs 80 times in 79 verses:AV - church 115, assembly 3; 118

ekklesia (Strong's 1577) occurs 118 times in 115 verses:

1577. ek-klesia ek-klay-see'-ah from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):--assembly, church.
1537. ek ek or ex ex a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote):--
2564. kaleo kal-eh'-o akin to the base of 2753; to "call" (properly, aloud, but used in a variety of applications, directly or otherwise):--bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-)name (was (called)).

kaleo (Strong's 2564) occurs 155 times in 138 verses: AV - call 125, bid 16, be so named 1, named + 3686 1, misc 3; 146

Matthew 1:21 and she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins.'

Revelation 22:16 `I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies; I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star!

 

[lionroar0]

There are many official Catholic statements like this (Unam Sanctum is another well known example) that seem to be radically reinterpreted by Catholics since Vatican II - often, it seems to me, in ways that seem impossible given the words.

While Catholics can't change their doctrine in this regard, I applaud the change in attitude.

Actually Unam Sanctum was specifially aimed at Phillip the Fair who wanted control of the Catholic Churches in France.

A person can't understand something correctly when disregarding the historical context.

Peace

 

[chilehed]

Outside of The Church there is no salvation. Why???????

Is this view correct, and holds to the Doctrine of love, justice and mercy? How is salvation achieved for those that are not even Christan and that have heard the word of god? Do they go to heaven?

Thanks and love

Santiago

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9p3.htm

“Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.​

848
"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."​

The church is both spiritual and physical - the invisible mystical Body and Bride of Christ (referred to as the church)and the visible community of all believers (referred to as the Church). The church has both a visible hierarchy and an invisible hierarchy, having those appointed to teach and others appointed to be taught (1 Corinthians 12).

If someone knows that Christ founded His church with a visible teaching authority vested in the hierarchy of the Church, and rejects that authority anyway, then he cannot be saved because in rejecting the Church the person is intentionally rejecting that which he knows Christ founded. "Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it." (CCC, p 846).

But there are many true Christians who sincerely, but mistakenly, believe that the Catholic Church is apostate and that it is not a legitimate part of Christ’s Bride, the church. These people are not rejecting the true Catholic Church, they are rejecting a qrotesque distortion of it.

Nonetheless, through Baptism these Christians are a part of the church (the mystical Bride), and through the unity of Christ are thus related to the Church (the visible instirution). The Church teaches that "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation" (CCC, p 847)

It’s important to remember that many of the statements of the past were made to address the issue of those who knew that the Church is the legitimate institution of the church and rejected it anyway. The issue of those who don’t know it is different, and the Church’s statements about that clearly say that people who are not visible members of the Catholic Church can nonetheless be saved. If they are, it’s all by the grace of Christ.

One cannot truly reject what one does not first truly know.

 

[IamAdopted]

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9p3.htm
The church is both spiritual and physical - the invisible mystical Body and Bride of Christ (referred to as the church)and the visible community of all believers (referred to as the Church). The church has both a visible hierarchy and an invisible hierarchy, having those appointed to teach and others appointed to be taught (1 Corinthians 12).

If someone knows that Christ founded His church with a visible teaching authority vested in the hierarchy of the Church, and rejects that authority anyway, then he cannot be saved because in rejecting the Church the person is intentionally rejecting that which he knows Christ founded. "Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it." (CCC, p 846).

But there are many true Christians who sincerely, but mistakenly, believe that the Catholic Church is apostate and that it is not a legitimate part of Christ’s Bride, the church. These people are not rejecting the true Catholic Church, they are rejecting a qrotesque distortion of it.

Nonetheless, through Baptism these Christians are a part of the church (the mystical Bride), and through the unity of Christ are thus related to the Church (the visible instirution). The Church teaches that "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation" (CCC, p 847)

It’s important to remember that many of the statements of the past were made to address the issue of those who knew that the Church is the legitimate institution of the church and rejected it anyway. The issue of those who don’t know it is different, and the Church’s statements about that clearly say that people who are not visible members of the Catholic Church can nonetheless be saved. If they are, it’s all by the grace of Christ.

One cannot truly reject what one does not first truly know.

Bleh.. I do not accept Catholic Dogma as scripture. I accept Scripture alone ... The only way to be saved is through the blood of Christ and being born of His spirit. If someone was on the street corner and cried out to God to save them with a sincere heart Jesus would do this.. Then God would add Him to His body.. Then He would need the milk of the word so that He could be fed..

 

[tulc]

If someone knows that Christ founded His church with a visible teaching authority vested in the hierarchy of the Church, and rejects that authority anyway, then he cannot be saved because in rejecting the Church the person is intentionally rejecting that which he knows Christ founded. "Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it." (CCC, p 846).

But there are many true Christians who sincerely, but mistakenly, believe that the Catholic Church is apostate and that it is not a legitimate part of Christ’s Bride, the church. These people are not rejecting the true Catholic Church, they are rejecting a qrotesque distortion of it.

What about those of us who believe neither one of those? I don't believe Roman Catholics are apostate nor do I believe Christ bestowed on the Roman Catholic Church His Authority.
tulc(one of THOSE people)

 

[santiagoamr]

Bleh.. I do not accept Catholic Dogma as scripture. I accept Scripture alone ... The only way to be saved is through the blood of Christ and being born of His spirit. If someone was on the street corner and cried out to God to save them with a sincere heart Jesus would do this.. Then God would add Him to His body.. Then He would need the milk of the word so that He could be fed..

The invisible Church is those that do not have any means of salvation, and are good to the eyes of God. The Justice of God, is clear!!! Salvation is for those who wish it even if they don't know it exists, even for those who have rejected the word of God because they didn't or couldn't really listen, and their rejection is not basesd on wrongfull terms.

Faith is something that can be given to you in an instant or it can also be something that oyu must earn and God will grant it to you. By your theory, God would be unjust and what Christ did for us would mean absolutely anything since his mercy would be unmercifull, and unjust. Boxing the blood of Christ can not be done it is yo precious because it is the blood of God, being himself all powerfull, all knowing, all loving. For this same reason Gods justice and Mercy can not be for just a few, if not his own mercifull gesture would be unmercifull and unjust.

Now this thread was to study and discuss the theological ramifications of the subject, not authority. It is not necesary to establish Authority or the true church in order to apport in to the subject, unless we are trying to establish things for our own benefits. I reall think it is a nice beautifull and loving subject that is why I posted, now if you want to stablish if this concept is true or not then by all means do so but within the subject. If not we will wonder around.

Thanks

Santiago (James in english)

 

[santiagoamr]

What about those of us who believe neither one of those? I don't believe Roman Catholics are apostate nor do I believe Christ bestowed on the Roman Catholic Church His Authority.
tulc(one of THOSE people)

It depends, men have conscience if by any means you are not conscious of the Authority of The Church, then I believe you to be saved.

Conscience is what mainly defines what we do, there can not be sin if you are not conscious that you are doing wrong. Take psicopaths as an example, these are people that do not know the difference between right or wrong, hence they can not choose to do reight or wrong because they cannot discern. Gods mercy and justice are never ending, if a human can discern the difference between being in fault or not, then surely god can do the same. This is what the CCC means when it says through no fault of their own. Many protestants like to believe that hell is full, I believe hell to be with very few souls. God created Humans with weaknessess so that they could make choices and those choices would mean the differece between salvation or condemnation. This he did so that we could earn heaven and when we would get there we would really appreciate what he gave us. Condemnation is not an act of God but an act of man, and this is because of Gods mercy and justice. He places the paths in front of you and you chose, he doesn{t make you chose, that is why acts of conscience are what define salvation. If God did not put the path to a person, of getting to know Crist and the Word of God, then that person really didn't have a choice, and thus if he were condemned, there would be no justice.

Thanks

Santiago (James in english)

 

[chilehed]

What about those of us who believe neither one of those? I don't believe Roman Catholics are apostate nor do I believe Christ bestowed on the Roman Catholic Church His Authority.
tulc(one of THOSE people)

Same answer.

 

[IamAdopted]

The invisible Church is those that do not have any means of salvation, and are good to the eyes of God. The Justice of God, is clear!!! Salvation is for those who wish it even if they don't know it exists, even for those who have rejected the word of God because they didn't or couldn't really listen, and their rejection is not basesd on wrongfull terms.

Faith is something that can be given to you in an instant or it can also be something that oyu must earn and God will grant it to you. By your theory, God would be unjust and what Christ did for us would mean absolutely anything since his mercy would be unmercifull, and unjust. Boxing the blood of Christ can not be done it is yo precious because it is the blood of God, being himself all powerfull, all knowing, all loving. For this same reason Gods justice and Mercy can not be for just a few, if not his own mercifull gesture would be unmercifull and unjust.

Now this thread was to study and discuss the theological ramifications of the subject, not authority. It is not necesary to establish Authority or the true church in order to apport in to the subject, unless we are trying to establish things for our own benefits. I reall think it is a nice beautifull and loving subject that is why I posted, now if you want to stablish if this concept is true or not then by all means do so but within the subject. If not we will wonder around.

Thanks

Santiago (James in english)

And this is written where? For although it sounds nice it is not what Gods word has said. Therefore all whom are saved are to come through the blood of Christ for there is no other way..

 

[Rion]

What if you believe the RCC and Orthodox are closest to the original church, but are not the sole/original church?

 

[santiagoamr]

And this is written where? For although it sounds nice it is not what Gods word has said. Therefore all whom are saved are to come through the blood of Christ for there is no other way..

This is about theology, but if you want to stablish scripture as all then stablish it!! I beg to you to Stablish Scripture as the only source for the knowledge of god with facts and reasoning no just because it says so in the bible, and by the way it does says so in the bible over and over and over. Simply by the new covenant.

So far you haven't had any ability to prove anything, so far you only quote what YOU think you understood and you do it like if it was God explaining thingss to all. Prove that you have the authority to interpret what you believe it's true? Then please by all means take us out of the subject.

 

[santiagoamr]

What if you believe the RCC and Orthodox are closest to the original church, but are not the sole/original church?

It's fine as long as you can bring to the table more than words but proof, that is verifiable.