Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus

benedictaoo · Mar 28, 2011

Alonso_Castillo said:
Yes, if the Tridentine formula for baptizing is used then that one who is baptized enters into the mystical body of Chtist.

Which is why we say that Luther changed the face of Christendom forever.

However, if the so baptized refuses to enter in full comunion with the Catholic Church that one is excluding himself from the Body and blood of the Lord without whch nobody can be saved.

ah, the Church doesn't even say that, so why should you?

There is such a concept of spiritual Communion and for those who have no access to the sacraments, Christ can communicate Himself to them if he so desires based on their sincere love and desire for him.

The point is, one should not think this is an option to choose... its not. Its for those who really and truly, through no fault of theirs, does not know the full truth.

God looks for ways to save us (all) I dare say He's willing to step out of the box to do it. Even God likes to color outside the lines sometimes.

The whole point is, Christ saved the world, meaning sin and Adam's disobedience was atoned for so God can reveal himself to anyone if it pleases Him to do so.

St_Barnabus · Mar 28, 2011

QuantaCura said:
What changed is there has spread a presumption that everyone who believes religious error is in good faith.

Vatican II addressed this, as well, Japhy. I cannot put my finger on the exact reference at this moment. It would be wonderful if Catholics knew their faith well enough to study and cherish these most valuable documents. Sadly, adult education often ended with Confirmation in grade school.

benedictaoo · Mar 28, 2011

Alonso_Castillo said:
Such ignorance constitutes the result and core of our Sin of omision, we catholics are failing in telling everyone outside the church that the only Church stablished by the Lord, where he left the sacraments necesary for salvation, is The Catholic Church. The very urgence of the missions is this, no one can be saved without comunion with the Lord in his Mystical Body. If we are not saying this to every one outside the Church we are in Sin, the sin of omision.

He created and Jesus instituted the sacraments as the ordinary normal way we are to receive HIs grace which sanctifies us, which helps us along in the process of transformation/theosis, which lead us to salvation...

How ever, these sacrments do not bind God- He can work outside of them in ways only known to Him if he so desires to.

benedictaoo · Mar 28, 2011

Alonso_Castillo said:
John 6, 54

And so, Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat
the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you will not have life in
you.

Vatican II, and the Catechism never said that there are other ways of salvation, they said that whether the Lord may save others outside of the church, they don't know.

That makes absolutely no sense seeing that the Church recognizes their baptism... so they are redeemed and made a member of the body of Christ, incorporated into the pascal mystery- but they go to hell becuase their churches have no means to consecrate the Eucharist??

Look, there is spiritual blindness all around us but for some folks, they are just doing the best that they can, following the truth the do know.

We have it easier but will be held to a higher standard. They have it much harder but will be held to a lesser standard.

St_Barnabus · Mar 28, 2011

For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.

For when the Gentiles [i.e.,pagans, non-christians] who do not have the law by nature [formal baptism into the Church] observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, (Romans 2:14-16).

Thus, according to the thought of St. Paul, if a person obeys the law of God written on his heart, he is obeying Christ and is essentially accepting the Spirit of Christ, even if he is not fully aware of this. It seems reasonable to conclude that a "just pagan" belongs to Christ and in some way shares in the membership of His Body, the Church, even without a formal awareness or an outward, visible manifestation of this fact.

A name given to this is "baptism of desire" - now taught as doctrine in the Catechism. St. Thomas Aquinas was the first to teach it, and it was formally mentioned in the Council of Trent, so we have evidence of continuity from St. Paul in scripture all the way up to V-II.

Davidnic · Mar 28, 2011

God can save in any manner He sees fit. He gives all the grace to find Him and they can work with that and if they do He reaches for them. It can also be rejected. He does not punish them for invincible ignorance coming from our faults as Catholics that drive people from the Church or if someone is raised so opposed to the Church that it blocks them.

Now, the Church is the visible union and we are called to bring people to that union. But often it is our own flaw in carrying the message...working with our own pride and not God's grace or giving into our own flaws that makes that message unacceptable by someone because we are really giving them our message and not God's invitation to His Church.

So in that God will act as He sees fit to save. Now...if we are talking about someone who hears the message but says..Well yes, I see that and agree with it and believe that is the Church God decreed but if women can't be priests or if they feel that way about homosexuals or if that is their view or abortion or it is too hard to believe that they believe about the Eucharist...then Theologically I would not be very hopeful. If someone believes the Catholic Church is right but does not enter or leaves because teachings are, not so much disbelieved, but deemed too hard or inconvenient...then that is a different matter. To enter and struggle with teachings while trying to accept is one thing. To refuse to enter if you believe that She is the Church...is different.

D'Ann · Mar 28, 2011

Mod Hat On

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The above are our Baptismal promises that we renew every year at the Easter Vigil. As we say at Baptism and at renewal. This is our Faith, this is the Faith of the Church.

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All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here (Community Rules). In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic.

All are welcomed... as a mod, it's difficult to read this thread... witnessing the division of traditionalists and extra-traditionists and a modern traditional way...

It's a struggle... for me, I grew up going to a pentecostal church and even without being Catholic, but I was baptized...even so, with all of my heart, I know that God's grace was with me... His gift of faith was always, always... with me... and despite what some have posted... I do believe that if I was to die at that time in my life... in an unknown mystery... I know Christ would have been there and greeted me with His love... with His arms open to me...

Just because some one is not Catholic, does not mean that they do not know God or that there is no hope of salvation for them... I don't know what this EENs thingie is... and I'm not sure if I even want to know...

Christ and the Catholic Church is not about exclusion... but rather about love... yes LOVE... God is our Father, we are His children and His love is great for us... sinners. We all have sinned and none of us are worthy, but through and because of Christ and that in itself... is what unites ALL Christians to each other and to Christ... we may not be one in a "visible church", but we are ONE in Christ in an invisible church... in an unknown mystery and that is the purest and truest form of Christianity and Catholicism...

end of rant.. (sorry)

MOD HAT OFF

benedictaoo · Mar 28, 2011

I'm glad God is nothing like we are... then nobody would be saved.

He judges us on what we know, not on what we don't.

At the end of the day, when its all said and done, its final willful rejection of God/and or a unwillingness to be sorry for our sins that will send us to hell.

For those who really are with out the teachings of Christ like pagans and such- be the best person you can be... follow the natural law written in your hearts and leave the mercy up to God.

St Theresa said, the poor savages, they have the natural law and that is what they will be judge by.

Its not one size fits all. These things are in theory, theoretically speaking- the execution of salvation and grace with an individual, its between them and God and Lord knows what takes place between the two.

D'Ann · Mar 28, 2011

JohntheTheologian said:
So people full of hate and ignorance may enter the kingdom of heaven, but the wrong kind of Christian can't?

benedictaoo said:
I'm glad God is nothing like we are... then nobody would be saved.

He judges us on what we know, not on what we don't.

At the end of the day, when its all said and done, its final willful rejection of God/and or a unwillingness to be sorry for our sins that will send us to hell.

For those who really are with out the teachings of Christ like pagans and such- be the best person you can be... follow the natural law written in your hearts and leave the mercy up to God.

St Theresa said, the poor savages, they have the natural law and that is what they will be judge by.

Its not one size fits all. These things are in theory, theoretically speaking- the execution of salvation and grace with an individual, its between them and God and Lord knows what takes place between the two.

Amen...

St_Barnabus · Mar 28, 2011

Thank you so much D'Ann for sharing your heart with us. Beautiful sentiments for sure!

I also appreciate your reminder [Statement of Faith] to refrain from posting here in opposition to formal teachings of Catholicism, which has caused unnecessary and laborious posts on the part of some of us, to prevent scandal and false teaching from reaching those who are not of our faith.

Thanks to you and the staff for continuing to moderate this thread. I trust if these errors do not abate, wisdom would be to close it.

Alonso_Castillo · Mar 28, 2011

benedictaoo said:
Which is why we say that Luther changed the face of Christendom forever.

ah, the Church doesn't even say that, so why should you?

There is such a concept of spiritual Communion and for those who have no access to the sacraments, Christ can communicate Himself to them if he so desires based on their sincere love and desire for him.

The point is, one should not think this is an option to choose... its not. Its for those who really and truly, through no fault of theirs, does not know the full truth.

God looks for ways to save us (all) I dare say He's willing to step out of the box to do it. Even God likes to color outside the lines sometimes.

The whole point is, Christ saved the world, meaning sin and Adam's disobedience was atoned for so God can reveal himself to anyone if it pleases Him to do so.

Excuse me??????

From Vatican II Lumen Gentium 14

This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

Seriously, I am not lying to you.

Alonso_Castillo · Mar 28, 2011

benedictaoo said:
He created and Jesus instituted the sacraments as the ordinary normal way we are to receive HIs grace which sanctifies us, which helps us along in the process of transformation/theosis, which lead us to salvation...

How ever, these sacrments do not bind God- He can work outside of them in ways only known to Him if he so desires to.

Yes but We cannot say that there are other ways, we simply say that God reveled to us his Will, the Way He Likes. We are sent to the world to proclame such revelation we can't say that ours is one of the ways, else we are required to say which other ways are there and there are none other known.

Alonso_Castillo · Mar 28, 2011

benedictaoo said:
That makes absolutely no sense seeing that the Church recognizes their baptism... so they are redeemed and made a member of the body of Christ, incorporated into the pascal mystery- but they go to hell becuase their churches have no means to consecrate the Eucharist??

Look, there is spiritual blindness all around us but for some folks, they are just doing the best that they can, following the truth the do know.

We have it easier but will be held to a higher standard. They have it much harder but will be held to a lesser standard.

We are not doing what we are called to do, and that is the key point of this discusion, we are called to call, we are sent to bring home those who are baptized to enter in full comunion with the Mystical Body of the Church. To enter in comunion with the Lord. If they reject to come home then they do not believe and they reject the garce of their baptism.

But we as catholics can't go all the way long doing nothing to tell christians that they should enter in comunion with the Lord's body in full way, in the Catholic Church.

benedictaoo · Mar 28, 2011

Alonso_Castillo said:
Excuse me??????

From Vatican II Lumen Gentium 14

Seriously, I am not lying to you.

Seriously, We are speaking past you. Context is everything. The Church does not teach that only baptized Catholics in union with the pope of Rome can be saved.

It teaches that's the path, the faith that saves and it teaches us where it is but it also teaches us that we do not know where it isn't.

You implied that only Catholics in union with Rome can be saved.

If I misread that, then I'm sorry.

benedictaoo · Mar 28, 2011

Alonso_Castillo said:
Yes but We cannot say that there are other ways, we simply say that God reveled to us his Will, the Way He Likes. We are sent to the world to proclame such revelation we can't say that ours is one of the ways, else we are required to say which other ways are there and there are none other known.

I did not say once that they are other ways, just that they are "ways only known to God" and invincible ignorance is not something we can choose. We can't opt to not baptize becuase we also know that God saves by a desire to be saved.

benedictaoo · Mar 28, 2011

Alonso_Castillo said:
We are not doing what we are called to do, and that is the key point of this discusion, we are called to call, we are sent to bring home those who are baptized to enter in full comunion with the Mystical Body of the Church. To enter in comunion with the Lord. If they reject to come home then they do not believe and they reject the garce of their baptism.

But we as catholics can't go all the way long doing nothing to tell christians that they should enter in comunion with the Lord's body in full way, in the Catholic Church.

ah... I do not think that we do nothing???

I think not being a jerk about it anymore does more towards that cause... and thats what JPll was all about- not being a jerk about it anymore.

Alonso_Castillo · Mar 28, 2011

benedictaoo said:
Seriously, We are speaking past you. Context is everything. The Church does not teach that only baptized Catholics in union with the pope of Rome can be saved.

It teaches that's the path, the faith that saves and it teaches us where it is but it also teaches us that we do not know where it isn't.

You implied that only Catholics in union with Rome can be saved.

If I misread that, then I'm sorry.

Only catholics in comunion with Rome are certain of being in the way left by the Lord to Salvation. Other ways out of communion with the bishop of Rome, succesor of Peter, are not reveled, and if they set appart their faithfuls from the Catholic Church then they are setting people away from the only way reveled by the Lord.

The church teaches that the fullnes of the revelation and the means of salvation are in the catholic church and no in the others. But this doesn't mean that we catholics are granted salvation:

from Vatican II Lumen Gentium 14

All the Church's children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged

St_Barnabus · Mar 28, 2011

Alonso Castillo said:
If they reject to come home then they do not believe and they reject the grace of their baptism.

Alonso, it's getting obvious that you have not read the whole thread or you would have seen these documents posted from the Catechism, but which were taken directly from Vatican II. You persist in denying these truths, not only in opposition to the Council's teachings, but in opposition to OBOB's Statement of Faith which you set aside to proclaim your own truth.

I ask that you refrain from teaching these errors for the sake of innocent readers of this forum who are not of our faith, and update your catechesis. You complain Catholics are not doing their job, but you do more harm by promoting your wrong understanding than those you believe are lax in evangelizing.

Here again for your review are the teachings specific to your errors.

Catechism said:
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

[They must enter the church of their own free will as God's grace leads them, and not simply because you knock at their door and tell them they MUST do so or else they will lose the grace of their baptism. That is coersion, and as Pope Pius XII stated, must be condemned.]

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

[Notice the invincible ignorance part, yet the obligation to evangelize is not set aside as acceptance or evidence that "all faiths are equal." But the timing and grace is given solely by God who alone sees the heart.]

There is yet another CCC paragraph taken from Lumen Gentium that is also important to review during this discussion:

870 "The sole Church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, . . . subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him. Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines" (LG 8).

benedictaoo · Mar 28, 2011

Alonso_Castillo said:
Only catholics in comunion with Rome are certain of being in the way left by the Lord to Salvation. Other ways out of communion with the bishop of Rome, succesor of Peter, are not reveled, and if they set appart their faithfuls from the Catholic Church then they are setting people away from the only way reveled by the Lord.

The church teaches that the fullnes of the revelation and the means of salvation are in the catholic church and no in the others. But this doesn't mean that we catholics are granted salvation:

from Vatican II Lumen Gentium 14

All the Church's children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged

Umm, I see it differently. We agree that the Church is where its at- we agree that no one knows where its not...

we have the means and we know the means but we don't know what the means can be to someone who lacks the means so we don't go around getting all up in the non Catholics grill telling them that they are all going to burn in hell.

Thats the only thing thats changed, we don't get up in their face anymore telling them to convert or burn.

Alonso_Castillo · Mar 28, 2011

St_Barnabus said:
Alonso, it's getting obvious that you have not read the whole thread or you would have seen these documents posted from the Catechism, but which were taken directly from Vatican II. You persist in denying these truths, not only in opposition to the Council's teachings, but in opposition to OBOB's Statement of Faith which you set aside to proclaim your own truth.

I ask that you refrain from teaching these errors for the sake of innocent readers of this forum who are not of our faith, and update your catechesis. You complain Catholics are not doing their job, but you do more harm by promoting your wrong understanding than those you believe are lax in evangelizing.

Here again for your review are the teachings specific to your errors.

Excuse me, but I think you didn't explain how can anyone know that the catholic Church is the Gate to Salvation without mision. and how to make mission without calling to people to know the truth.

From Lumen Gentium:

Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

So from your prospective, Do we have to leave in ignorance to those who do not know that the catholic church is the only way known for salvation so they can be saved by their ignorance and not damned by their posible rejection to enter the Church?

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