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Old Ned

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Talking to my friend, we are discussing Creation and Evolution.

Her statement. "We are of 1 kind, I do not and cannot believe we come from monkeys and I don't need proof because Evolution is only a Theory anyway"

My head exploded, I often hear the 3 terrible terms "Kind" "Monkeys" and "Just a theory" , but strung altogether in one sentence was mind blo..numbing.

So this brings me to a couple of questions... sort of.

Why will the Creationist community refuse to use the word "Species" instead of "Kind" ?
To me this sounds extremely childish, it's like you taking your car to a mechanic because the wheel is vibrating and the mechanic says "Yeah the roundies need to be fixed"

Next, monkeys, why is the creation community so hung up on the idea we "Come from monkeys"?
Those who profess science says this are either ignorant of the subject, or in breach of the 9th commandment.

Last, if you seriously think "It's just a theory" .... please please please go an look up the definition of "Scientific theory" .
Again, those who state this are either ignorant of the subject or are in breach of the 9th commandment.

So which is it? Ignorant? Or 9th Commandment Breach?

Message ends.
 

Old Ned

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Well yes I realise that, but when attempting to argue/debate a topic, surely you would make sure the words and terms you use are correct, and if not, when you are corrected you would surely accept it. Otherwise you just make yourself look stupid.
Especially if you are suggesting the opposition said this or that when they never once said anything of the sort. That would be deceit would it not? Which would ultimately be immoral would it not?
And once it has been explained to you and corrected, if you continue using it then you are outright lying about what you think.

"It's just a theory"
"no no, let me explain...."
"Oh, well it's still just a theory"
"No, no, let me explain again with pictures"
"Oh, ok I get it..... but it's still just a theory"

This is either extreme lack of the ability to learn and absorb knowledge... or, you DO understand it but are simply hanging on to it to further your argument, which would be a breach of the 9th commandment.
 
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durangodawood

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Well, "theory" obviously has two forms. For example:
1. Theory of evolution
2. String theory

Both are even used by scientists, for better or worse. It does bother me that critics of evolution try to use the potential confusion to their advantage.
 
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Old Ned

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Good point. But that still brings us to the fact that once the differences and definitions have been explained, only those who cannot absorb knowledge or those who are happy to simply lie about what they know and willingly deny what has been proven beyond any shadow of doubt to further their cause.

This still comes down to deceit. Which would be a sin would it not?

Unless someone could give me a 3rd option as to why, once explained, some people will continue to use certain incorrect terms.
 
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Old Ned

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Interesting. And a good read, a very nice analogy of the psychology of it.
But realistically nothing I didn't already know. It simply suggests denial.
Refusal to look at evidence or to hear anything that may suggest you are wrong.

And Denial would be a sin if the thing you are denying is true? Am I right in that?
If so, then the examples I gave above can all be proven to be true since all it takes is a dictionary. Whether you believe the things these words suggest or not is neither here nor there. But the actual definitions of the words in the English language are 100% solid and once explained they cannot be argued.
Therefore it is wilful denial.
 
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Heissonear

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Interesting. And a good read, a very nice analogy of the psychology of it.
But realistically nothing I didn't already know. It simply suggests denial.
Refusal to look at evidence or to hear anything that may suggest you are wrong.

And Denial would be a sin if the thing you are denying is true? Am I right in that?
If so, then the examples I gave above can all be proven to be true since all it takes is a dictionary. Whether you believe the things these words suggest or not is neither here nor there. But the actual definitions of the words in the English language are 100% solid and once explained they cannot be argued.
Therefore it is wilful denial.
.


Do you understand the premise that Naturalism, and its subset Evolution, is based on faith?

Naturalists hate to look at their foundation, but having been one, I point at the foundation.

So you talked to a non- scientist. So you hear what does not fit your Naturalistic doctrine.

Same to you my friend, you continue to ignore and say the Spiritual Realm does not exist and Higher Life is not in our midst. Are you not seriously ignorant too?

Who are you pointing fingers at. And the dynamic reaction "head explode" is a two way street?

Who is in denial, Sir?

.
 
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Old Ned

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Do you understand the premise that Naturalism, and its subset Evolution, is based on faith?

Naturalists hate to look at their foundation, but having been one, I point at the foundation.

So you talked to a non- scientist. So you hear what does not fit your Naturalistic doctrine.

Same to you my friend, you continue to ignore and say the Spiritual Realm does not exist and Higher Life is not in our midst. Are you not seriously ignorant too?

Who are you pointing fingers at. And the dynamic reaction "head explode" is a two way street?

Who is in denial, Sir?

.

I am in no denial. I believed in God until the lack of evidence be it spiritual or solid. I look at science and am offered mountains of evidence.
I do not believe anything is 100% fact except mathematics.
I do not deny the possibility of a God, but I do not believe it's true. However, if someone were to offer me the same strength of evidence as science does then I will gladly accept it to be true is some degree depending on the evidence.

Besides, as I stated, we are not talking about the subjects, we are talking about definitions of words.
The definition of "Scientific Theory" cannot be disputed.
The statement that "Science says we come from monkeys" is incorrect.
The word "Kind" is a layman's term and in this context is nothing more than the refusal to use the correct term. When speaking of a life form, the term is "Species" . The word "Kind" can be used for absolutely anything.
I have an LED tv, it's a kind of TV.
In no way could you use the word "Species" correctly in this statement.

So instead of questioning whether or not I believe in Faith or whether or not she believes in Evolution, lets concentrate on my original point that the definition of these words is being purposely used incorrectly and/or statements being used are nothing more than lies.
 
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AV1611VET

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Talking to my friend, we are discussing Creation and Evolution.
Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
Her statement. "We are of 1 kind, I do not and cannot believe we come from monkeys and I don't need proof because Evolution is only a Theory anyway"
Nice.
My head exploded, I often hear the 3 terrible terms "Kind" "Monkeys" and "Just a theory" , but strung altogether in one sentence was mind blo..numbing.
I'm a little confused here.

Are you saying you don't agree with that statement?

I would think you would be in total agreement.

Did she say something incorrect?

  1. Do you believe we are of one kind?
  2. Do you believe we come from monkeys?
  3. Do you need "proof"?
So this brings me to a couple of questions... sort of.
Okay, I'll give you a couple of answers... sort of

Why will the Creationist community refuse to use the word "Species" instead of "Kind" ?
Then scientific methodists would say there were too many species for the Ark at the time of the Flood.

Thus "species" is too low on Linnaeus' paper chart; that's probably been changed ten or fifteen times.
To me this sounds extremely childish, it's like you taking your car to a mechanic because the wheel is vibrating and the mechanic says "Yeah the roundies need to be fixed"
And that would make your head explode?
Next, monkeys, why is the creation community so hung up on the idea we "Come from monkeys"?
Because that's what we were initially taught.

After scientists lost the scopes trial, they "conveniently" discovered we didn't come from monkies after all, but from some other branch.

I would venture to say the general public isn't interested in trying to keep up with your latest fads.

You guys decide this stuff behind closed doors, then don't tell us anything, and we're expected to know this stuff as well as you guys?

That's why I don't expect you guys to understand things like dispensation theology, ontological subordination, or diabolical plagiarism.

These things are unique to our understanding.
Those who profess science says this are either ignorant of the subject, or in breach of the 9th commandment.
I'll go with "ignorant."
Last, if you seriously think "It's just a theory" .... please please please go an look up the definition of "Scientific theory" .
Fair enough ... it's a Scientific theory.
Again, those who state this are either ignorant of the subject or are in breach of the 9th commandment.
I'll go with "ignorant."
So which is it? Ignorant? Or 9th Commandment Breach?
Ignorant -- like you guys.
 
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Paradoxum

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Do you understand the premise that Naturalism, and its subset Evolution, is based on faith?

Well evolution is based on evidence.

I don't know that naturalism is based on faith though. I'm not sure I would classify myself as a naturalist, but I suppose it depends what do you consider makes someone a naturalist.

I'd say that many things have been explained by the physical, and there is no good evidence of there being anything more than the physical. So I don't believe in magic, and the supernatural, because I don't see any good evidence for this theses... and they seem made up. Does this make me a naturalist?

I would say that I question the nature of naturalism when it comes to consciousness though. It seems to me that conscious experience may be (but may not be) unexplainable with our current understanding of what it means for something to be physical.
 
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Subduction Zone

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One problem that creationists have is that they cannot come up with a consistent working definition of "kind". In other words they cannot come up with a definition of "kind" where you could have a consistent test that tells if two animals are of the same "kind" or not. They don't like the word "species" since it is possible to demonstrate evolution at the species level. When they cannot come up with a working definition I like to abscond with the term and make it synonymous with "clade":

Clade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Then you can show them how we are in the same clade as monkeys, so we are the same kind.
 
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Old Ned

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Lol :D I had a feeling you would like that.

I'm a little confused here.

Are you saying you don't agree with that statement?

I would think you would be in total agreement.

Did she say something incorrect?

Yes.

  1. Do you believe we are of one kind? In a sense, but the word "Kind" is being used instead of the correct word for the context. I will explain further down.
  2. Do you believe we come from monkeys? No. Nor does Science or Evolution. That's my point. It's a false statement and always was.
  3. Do you need "proof"? Yes. Yes I Do.

Okay, I'll give you a couple of answers... sort of

lol Ok Mr. Sarcastic :p I meant that not all were really questions, but question or not I wished others opinions.

Then scientific methodists would say there were too many species for the Ark at the time of the Flood.

Thus "species" is too low on Linnaeus' paper chart; that's probably been changed ten or fifteen times.

Scientific Methodists? Nice :D
No the term "Species" refers to a life form. It is the correct Egnlish word to use when speaking of life forms.

In Biology (Which is what Evolution is) Species: Biology . the major subdivision of a genus or subgenus, regarded as the basic category of biological classification, composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species.

Kind: a class or group of individual objects, people, animals, etc., of the same nature or character, or classified together because they have traits in common; category: Our dog is the same kind as theirs.

You see, the word "Kind" is too specific, you could have a Bulldog and if your neighbour has a Bulldog, you both have the same kind of Dog.
But when talking about All dogs, a Dog is a "Kind" of what?
You will say animal.
Ok so what "Kind" is a Human?... Ape perhaps?

When speaking in terms of Biology, the word is "Species" No If's, no But's.

And that would make your head explode?

Yes. Would you trust a mechanic who doesn't know what the parts of a car are named?
If you were going to have surgery and the Dr. was using words like "Thingys" instead of "Testicles", would you be happy?

Because that's what we were initially taught.

After scientists lost the scopes trial, they "conveniently" discovered we didn't come from monkies after all, but from some other branch.

Ok, did you read the trial?
Firstly, Scopes was on trial for teaching Evolution. The only person who mentioned "Monkeys" was the prosecutor, Bryan.

This has always been a misconception. It's because Apes and monkeys both share a common ancestor, but since the very first moment of the very first monkey, there are no human descendants from any of these monkeys.

The monkeys thing pretty much came from those opposed to Evolution and with a misunderstanding granted future "Anti-evolutionists" the wonderful argument "if we come from monkeys, why are there still monkeys" , which is an extremely easy question to answer.
But somehow this notion gained momentum, and before you know, tons of people, myself included at one point, think Evolution means we come from monkeys.
The fact of the matter?... Science has never once suggested seriously that humans evolved from monkeys.
Therefore, to say it does, is slanderous.

I would venture to say the general public isn't interested in trying to keep up with your latest fads.

It's not a fad. No serious scientist or anyone who understands evolution ever said it. Creationists made it up.

You guys decide this stuff behind closed doors, then don't tell us anything, and we're expected to know this stuff as well as you guys?

The information has been available to the public as soon as it was written. It's in hundreds of thousands of books and thousands upon thousands of websites.
Not to mention, you could be taught it in schools and learning centres.

That's why I don't expect you guys to understand things like dispensation theology, ontological subordination, or diabolical plagiarism.

These things are unique to our understanding.

Not really, I personally find most religious beliefs easier to understand than science. That's why I have the opinion that it's just a case of something makes more sense and says everything will be ok , is how believers get by.
Understanding Science is not easy, it takes some real open mindedness to be able to grasp how much of it happens, mainly due to much of it happening on a scale so small or large that our humans brains sometimes struggle to process this information.
It's easier to say "God spoke out the Universe and I don't have to know why"
Than go and learn Particle Physics.

I'll go with "ignorant."

That, my friend is a grand statement, and I truly thank you for your honesty.

Fair enough ... it's a Scientific theory.

Ok briefly, ...

Theory as you know it (philosophical) : An idea that someone has about how or why something works.

A Scientific Theory is a body of knowledge, the ideas, hypothesis, experiments, results, data, research, ... everything all put together is the Theory. It's loooong past the point of being "Just an idea" as you would believe.

I'll go with "ignorant."

Again, I commend you for your honesty.

Ignorant -- like you guys.

What is it you are suggesting we are Ignorant of?
My question was about the Ignorance of the 3 terms in my original post.
I am not ignorant of them, I will not profess to fully understand Evolution, but I understand perfectly the definition of those words.
 
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Old Ned

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One problem that creationists have is that they cannot come up with a consistent working definition of "kind". In other words they cannot come up with a definition of "kind" where you could have a consistent test that tells if two animals are of the same "kind" or not. They don't like the word "species" since it is possible to demonstrate evolution at the species level. When they cannot come up with a working definition I like to abscond with the term and make it synonymous with "clade":

Clade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Then you can show them how we are in the same clade as monkeys, so we are the same kind.

Nice :thumbsup:
In the words of Jack Sparrow "That's just maddening the unhelpful" :D
 
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AV1611VET

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In the words of Jack Sparrow "That's just maddening the unhelpful"

"Kind," according to the Biblical definition, is a plant or animal that can reproduce after itself.

And "kind," according to the online etymological dictionary, comes from the word "genus."

In any event, "kind," like "faith," is one of those words that is hard to define this side of Heaven.

I would venture to say that the only ones who are really demanding a definition of "kinds" are ones who are trying to discredit the Bible.
 
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Old Ned

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"Kind," according to the Biblical definition, is a plant or animal that can reproduce after itself.

And "kind," according to the online etymological dictionary, comes from the word "genus."

In any event, "kind," like "faith," is one of those words that is hard to define this side of Heaven.

I would venture to say that the only ones who are really demanding a definition of "kinds" are ones who are trying to discredit the Bible.

Discredit the Bible? Paranoia.

Ok so where does it say that in the Bible? actually describing what it means by "Kinds".

Also, where did you get that etymology from? I can't find it, my results don't say that at all.
You do know it's a Germanic word, not Latin... right?
 
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AV1611VET

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Discredit the Bible? Paranoia.
Experience.
Ok so where does it say that in the Bible? actually describing what it means by "Kinds".
Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Also, where did you get that etymology from? I can't find it, my results don't say that at all.
You do know it's a Germanic word, not Latin... right?
Sorry ... it's the other way around:
genus, (n.)

(plural genera), 1550s as a term of logic, "kind or class of things" (biological sense dates from c.1600), from Latin genus (genitive generis) "race, stock, kind; family, birth, descent, origin," cognate with Greek genos "race, kind," and gonos "birth, offspring, stock," from PIE root *gen(e)- "produce, beget, be born" (cf. Sanskrit janati "begets, bears," janah "race," janman- "birth, origin," jatah "born;" Avestan zizanenti "they bear;" Greek gignesthai "to become, happen;" Latin gignere "to beget," gnasci "to be born," genius "procreative divinity, inborn tutelary spirit, innate quality," ingenium "inborn character," germen "shoot, bud, embryo, germ;" Lithuanian gentis "kinsmen;" Gothic kuni "race;" Old English cennan "beget, create;" Old High German kind "child;" Old Irish ro-genar "I was born;" Welsh geni "to be born;" Armenian chanim "I bear, I am born").

SOURCE
 
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Old Ned

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[
QUOTE=AV1611VET;64873575]Experience.

Opinion.

Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

That does not say what you said.

Sorry ... it's the other way around:

SOURCE

Why did you look up the Word Genus instead of ...

Kind
 
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Ana the Ist

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Talking to my friend, we are discussing Creation and Evolution.

Her statement. "We are of 1 kind, I do not and cannot believe we come from monkeys and I don't need proof because Evolution is only a Theory anyway"

My head exploded, I often hear the 3 terrible terms "Kind" "Monkeys" and "Just a theory" , but strung altogether in one sentence was mind blo..numbing.

So this brings me to a couple of questions... sort of.

Why will the Creationist community refuse to use the word "Species" instead of "Kind" ?
To me this sounds extremely childish, it's like you taking your car to a mechanic because the wheel is vibrating and the mechanic says "Yeah the roundies need to be fixed"

Next, monkeys, why is the creation community so hung up on the idea we "Come from monkeys"?
Those who profess science says this are either ignorant of the subject, or in breach of the 9th commandment.

Last, if you seriously think "It's just a theory" .... please please please go an look up the definition of "Scientific theory" .
Again, those who state this are either ignorant of the subject or are in breach of the 9th commandment.

So which is it? Ignorant? Or 9th Commandment Breach?

Message ends.

Willfully ignorant.

The OP reminds me of a discussion I had with a creationist on evolution once in real life. It ended when he said, "I've never gone to the zoo and seen a monkey give birth to a person." Like you, my head exploded. I realized that continuing the conversation was pointless. His lack of knowledge about evolution was a choice...he didn't want to know. I can't understand that kind of thinking...where someone would rather be ignorant of something than possibly learn more at the risk of changing their beliefs.

It's choosing to be dumb.
 
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Strathos

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Talking to my friend, we are discussing Creation and Evolution.

Her statement. "We are of 1 kind, I do not and cannot believe we come from monkeys and I don't need proof because Evolution is only a Theory anyway"

My head exploded, I often hear the 3 terrible terms "Kind" "Monkeys" and "Just a theory" , but strung altogether in one sentence was mind blo..numbing.

So this brings me to a couple of questions... sort of.

Why will the Creationist community refuse to use the word "Species" instead of "Kind" ?
To me this sounds extremely childish, it's like you taking your car to a mechanic because the wheel is vibrating and the mechanic says "Yeah the roundies need to be fixed"

Because if they accepted the scientific definition of species, they would have to accept the observed instances of populations evolving from one species to another. So instead they use a term that they have never been able to define.

Next, monkeys, why is the creation community so hung up on the idea we "Come from monkeys"?
Those who profess science says this are either ignorant of the subject, or in breach of the 9th commandment.

This is actually a fault of misunderstanding on both sides of the issue.

Evolution does not say that we are descended from contemporary monkeys, but rather that they evolved from the same ancestor. However, this ancestor, if examined by any zoological method in use today, would doubtlessly be considered a "monkey". In fact, using cladistics, as we are a type of ape, we can also say that we are a type of monkey, as well as a type of primate, mammal, vertebrate, animal, etc.

Last, if you seriously think "It's just a theory" .... please please please go an look up the definition of "Scientific theory" .
Again, those who state this are either ignorant of the subject or are in breach of the 9th commandment.

So which is it? Ignorant? Or 9th Commandment Breach?

This one is likely a deliberate falsehood spread around because it sounds convincing to people who only know the layman's definition of the word.
 
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