• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Explaining the Trinity

mindlight

See in the dark
Site Supporter
Dec 20, 2003
14,464
3,053
London, UK
✟1,057,524.00
Country
Germany
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It's an article of faith that most people here believe in the Trinity. That God is One God in three equal, eternal, fully Divine persons- Father , Son and Holy Spirit.

But:

1) Could you begin to demonstrate that the Bible actually teaches the Trinity even though it never uses the word

2) Could you provide an Old Testament defence of this? Why is their no awareness of this idea before Christ in the Jewish community?

3) What does the Trinity say about the nature of God- what insight does it give us into God?

4) What does it mean for our Christian lives to believe in a Trinitarian God as opposed to a Monotheistic one like the Jews or Muslims believe in? How does believing in the Trinity distinguish us from Polytheists also?

5) With what simple analogies would you try and explain the Trinity to someone else?
 

Chesterton

Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding
Site Supporter
May 24, 2008
27,734
21,912
Flatland
✟1,155,378.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
It's an article of faith that most people here believe in the Trinity. That God is One God in three equal, eternal, fully Divine persons- Father , Son and Holy Spirit.

But:

1) Could you begin to demonstrate that the Bible actually teaches the Trinity even though it never uses the word

The idea runs throughout the New Testament, but is especially made clear at the baptism of Jesus, and in Jesus' words of the Great Commission.

2) Could you provide an Old Testament defence of this? Why is their no awareness of this idea before Christ in the Jewish community?

"Let us make man in our image." ;)

3) What does the Trinity say about the nature of God- what insight does it give us into God?

4) What does it mean for our Christian lives to believe in a Trinitarian God as opposed to a Monotheistic one like the Jews or Muslims believe in? How does believing in the Trinity distinguish us from Polytheists also?

It says that we live in three dimensions, and the Creator God who created those dimensions is bigger and more and other than we can imagine, which is really somewhat intuitive; if there's a God, I'd expect that to be the case.

5) With what simple analogies would you try and explain the Trinity to someone else?

Maybe the three faces of a cube, or the quantum mechanics idea of superposition, but neither of those are adequate.
 
Upvote 0

Yab Yum

Veteran
Jul 9, 2008
1,927
200
✟2,916.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
5) With what simple analogies would you try and explain the Trinity to someone else?

A mirror i) is empty in essence (Father) and thus can ii) reflect by its nature (Spirit) iii) specific manifestations of its energies (Son).

In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. (John 14:20).
 
Upvote 0

Sphinx777

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2007
6,327
972
Bibliotheca Alexandrina
✟10,752.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
In the Christian religion, God is the eternal being that created and preserves the universe. The Bible never speaks of God in an impersonal sense. Instead, it refers to him in personal terms — as one who is, who speaks, who sees, hears, acts, and loves. God is understood to have a will and personality and is an all powerful, divine and benevolent being. He is represented in Scripture as being primarily concerned with people. For he is an all seeing God.

God is believed to be both immanent (meaning that he is with and within all things), and transcendent (meaning that he is outside space and time, and therefore eternal and unable to be changed by forces within the universe). Although the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox churches, and the various Protestant denominations believe that they worship the same God, some have differing beliefs about his nature.

God is usually held to have the properties of holiness (separate from sin and incorruptible), justice (fair, right, and true in all his judgments), omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence, omnipresence and immortality (eternal and everlasting).

The Christian God is understood by Trinitarians as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; a single infinite being who is both within and beyond nature. Because the persons of the Trinity represent a personal relation even on the level of God to himself, he is represented by all Christian denominations to be personal both in his immanence (in his personal relation toward us) and in his transcendence (in his personal relation toward himself).

Nontrinitarians hold that God, the Father, is supreme; that Jesus, although still divine Lord and Savior, is the Son of God; and that the Holy Spirit is a phenomenon akin to God's will on Earth. The holy three are separate, yet the Son and the Holy Spirit are still seen as originating from the one, true, and eternal God.


:angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:
 
Upvote 0

Secundulus

Well-Known Member
Mar 24, 2007
10,065
849
✟14,425.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The idea of the Trinity is in the OT. The problem for Protestants is that it is in the Deuterocanonical Books that they reject. Specifically, it is in Ecclesiasticus 24.

“I came out of the mouth of the most High, the firstborn before all creatures: I made that in the heavens there should rise light that never faileth, and as a cloud I covered all the earth: I dwelt in the highest places, and my throne is in a pillar of a cloud. I alone have compassed the circuit of heaven, and have penetrated into the bottom of the deep, and have walked in the waves of the sea, And have stood in all the earth: and in every people, And in every nation I have had the chief rule: And by my power I have trodden under my feet the hearts of all the high and low: and in all these I sought rest, and I shall abide in the inheritance of the Lord. Then the creator of all things commanded, and said to me: and he that made me, rested in my tabernacle, And he said to me: Let thy dwelling be in Jacob, and thy inheritance in Israel, and take root in my elect. From the beginning, and before the world, was I created, and unto the world to come I shall not cease to be, and in the holy dwelling place I have ministered before him. And so was I established in Sion, and in the holy city likewise I rested, and my power was in Jerusalem. ” (Sirach 24:5–15, D-R)
 
Upvote 0
D

dies-l

Guest
3) What does the Trinity say about the nature of God- what insight does it give us into God?

4) What does it mean for our Christian lives to believe in a Trinitarian God as opposed to a Monotheistic one like the Jews or Muslims believe in?

I'm focusing on these questions because I think that they are the most important. The beautiful thing about trinitarianism is that it points to a God who is inherently relational. He is, in a sense, relationship. The apostle John tells us in his first epistle that God is love. In order for love to exist, it must have both and object and a subject (a loved and a lover). Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all believe in single God who is eternal (who has always existed and always will existed). It is fair to say that most traditions within these faiths would say that God is the only thing that is eternal. What this means is that, if God is the only being that is eternal and God is One, then God cannot be love. However, trinitarianism provides a solution to this dilemma: because God exists in more than one person, He is inherently relational. Being, by very His nature, relationship, He is capable of love; in fact, the Trinity brings a whole new level of meaning to St. John's words that God is love (He is not just capable of loving; He is the definition of what love is). Trinitarianism, therefore, uniquely points to the God, who is love.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dragons87
Upvote 0

BrendanMark

Member
Apr 4, 2007
828
80
Australia
✟31,327.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
1) Could you begin to demonstrate that the Bible actually teaches the Trinity even though it never uses the word

The Trinity and doctrine of Two Natures are consequences of the very scriptural Incarnation of Jesus Christ - God the Son.

Without a doubt the central affirmation of the Christian faith is that Jesus Christ is both divine and human. On this truth all Christians are agreed, since indeed one who denies this can scarcely bear the name ‘Christian’ in any meaningful sense at all.
Fairbairn, Donald – Grace and Christology in the Early Church [Oxford Early Christian Studies, 2003 p.vii]


And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of the Only-Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:14

Although he existed in the form of God, he did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but he emptied himself by taking the form of a servant and being made in human likeness.
Phil. 2:6-7

These two biblical texts proclaim what is at once both the central truth of the Christian faith and perhaps its most controversial affirmation. God has become a man. The one who was equal with God has taken upon himself the form of a servant. In the man Jesus who has lived among us, we see the glory of the Father’s only Son. As early as ad 325, this affirmation was enshrined prominently in the Creed of Nicea, even though the Council of Nicea dealt not with the incantation per se, but with the full deity of God the Son. The Creed affirms not only that ‘we believe in one God, Father, all-sovereign, maker of all things seen and unseen; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God’ but also that this Son of God ‘for us men, and for our salvation, came down, and was incarnated, and was made man, suffered, and arose on the third day’.
Fairbairn, Donald – Grace and Christology in the Early Church [Oxford Early Christian Studies, 2003 p.1]

2) Could you provide an Old Testament defence of this? Why is their no awareness of this idea before Christ in the Jewish community?

See Secundulus' post above.

3) What does the Trinity say about the nature of God- what insight does it give us into God?

That God loved us such that he Incarnated, suffered and took on sin for our sake, undeserving of His salvific Grace as we are.


Thus, prior to the Nestorian controversy, the church had opposed three extreme misrepresentations of the person and work of Christ. (1) Christ was a divine being and therefore could not suffer (Docetism); (2) God the Father was temporarily changed into the suffering Son, at the expense of his full divinity and transcendence (Patripassianism); (3) Christ was involved in change, birth, suffering, and death, therefore he could not be fully divine (Arianism). Having ruled out the three extreme options, the church asserted that the Son of God suffered in reality and not mere appearance; that it was the Son who became incarnate and suffered, not the Father; that the Son’s involvement in suffering did not diminish his divine status, because the incarnation was a supreme act of divine compassion and as such it was most appropriate and God-befitting.

The justification of the incarnation as an act worthy of God is a common theme of Christian apologetic against philosophically minded pagans, whose understanding of God did not allow for the possibility that God could empty himself, assume the human condition, and suffer the consequences. The very fact that the Fathers quite self-consciously understood their argument for the God-befitting character of the incarnation to be directed against Hellenistic philosophers puts into question the assumption that the Fathers asserted divine impassibility simply as a result of their uncritical acceptance of the conceptuality of Hellenistic theological thought.
Gavrilyuk, Paul L. – The Suffering of the Impassible God – The Dialectics of Patristic Thought [Oxford Early Christian Studies, 2004 p. 18]

4) What does it mean for our Christian lives to believe in a Trinitarian God as opposed to a Monotheistic one like the Jews or Muslims believe in? How does believing in the Trinity distinguish us from Polytheists also?


A solitary God would not be ‘Love without limits’. A God who made himself twofold, according to a pattern common in mythology, would make himself the root of an evil multiplicity to which he could only put a stop by re-absorbing it into himself. The Three-in-One denotes the perfection of Unity – of ‘Super-unity’, according to Dionysius the Areopagite – fulfilling itself in communion and becoming the source and foundation of all communion. It suggests the perpetual surmounting of contradiction, and of solitude as well, in the bosom of an infinite unity.
Clément, Olivier – The Roots of Christian Mysticism [NCP 1982, 1993 pp74-75]

When I say God, it is of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit that I wish to speak without diluting the godhead beyond these limits, lest I should introduce a whole tribe of divinities, and without restricting it to something less than the three persons, lest I be accused of impoverishing the godhead. Otherwise I should fall into the simplicity of the Judaizers or into the multiplicity of the Hellenizers . . .
Thus the Holy of Holies, enveloped and veiled by the Seraphim, is glorified by a threefold consecration in the unity of the godhead.
Gregory Nazianzen – Oration 54, For Easter, 4 (PG 36, 620) quoted from Clément, Olivier The Roots of Christian Mysticism [1982, 1993 p66]

5) With what simple analogies would you try and explain the Trinity to someone else?

Simple analogies for the infinite mystery beyond all human understanding? Beyond my capacity, I'm afraid.


The One enters into movement because of his fullness.
The Two is transcended because the godhead is beyond all opposition.
Perfection is achieved in the Three who is the first to overcome the compositeness of the Two.
Thus the godhead does not remained confined, nor does it spread out indefinitely.
Gregory Nazianzen – Oration 23,8 (PG 35, 1160)

Gregory explains the Trinity by means of a double contrast. He contrasts it on the one hand with the ancient pagan notion of diffused divinity, and on the other with the God of Judaism who is totally transcendent and distinct (although this statement would certainly need qualification in the light of the mystical tradition of Judaism). Today, from the same standpoint, we could contrast the mystery of the trinity with, on the one hand, the exoteric rigid monotheism of popular Judaism and Islam, and, on the other, with Hinduism and Buddhism and their transpersonal concept of divinity wherein everything is engulfed, as in an immeasurable womb – which is why India loves to speak of the ‘divine Mother’.

Here too some qualification would be necessary in speaking about both the ‘way of love’ in India and the various Buddhist interpretations of Grace. However, the mystery of personality and inner life, a synthesis of which is sought with difficulty by the various religions, seems to have been resolved in the doctrine of the Three-in-One, where association is perceived within the absolute, or rather the absolute within the association.

We are made in the image of God. From all eternity there is present in God a unique mode of existence, which is at the same time Unity and the Person in communion; and we are called to realize this unity in Christ, when we meet him, under the divided flames of the Spirit. Therefore we express the metaphysics of the person in the language of Trinitarian theology. What could be called the ‘Trinitarian person’ is not the isolated individual of Western society (whose implicit philosophy regards human beings as ‘similar’ but not ‘consubstantial’). Nor is it the absorbed and amalgamated human beings of totalitarian society, or of systematized oriental mysticism, or of the sects. It is, and must be, a person in a relationship, in communion. The transition from divine communion to human communion is accomplished in Christ who is consubstantial with the Father and the Spirit in his divinity and consubstantial with us in his humanity.
Clément, Olivier The Roots of Christian Mysticism [1982, 1993 p65-66]
 
Upvote 0

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
It's an article of faith that most people here believe in the Trinity. That God is One God in three equal, eternal, fully Divine persons- Father , Son and Holy Spirit.

But:

1) Could you begin to demonstrate that the Bible actually teaches the Trinity even though it never uses the word
Depends what you mean by "teaches the Trinity". One can show that Paul, John, etc are starting to think of Jesus Christ in terms that lead one to the idea that he is both God and distinct from the father while simultaenously using monotheistic language about God.

2) Could you provide an Old Testament defence of this?
Not without reading stuff back into it.
However, one can show that it doesn't run counter to the OT - and that reading monothestic statements as though they are about the ontology of God rather than about the uniqueness of God was something that largely developed in response to Christianity.

Why is their no awareness of this idea before Christ in the Jewish community?

3) What does the Trinity say about the nature of God- what insight does it give us into God?
That relationship is right at the centre of who God is.

5) With what simple analogies would you try and explain the Trinity to someone else?
I wouldn't. Such analogies are more misleading than they are helpful.
 
Upvote 0

Ave Maria

Ave Maria Gratia Plena
May 31, 2004
41,160
2,075
43
Diocese of Evansville, IN
✟135,340.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Here is a useful graphic to help explain the Trinity:

trinity.jpg
 
Upvote 0

Yab Yum

Veteran
Jul 9, 2008
1,927
200
✟2,916.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
I'm focusing on these questions because I think that they are the most important. The beautiful thing about trinitarianism is that it points to a God who is inherently relational. He is, in a sense, relationship. The apostle John tells us in his first epistle that God is love. In order for love to exist, it must have both and object and a subject (a loved and a lover). Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all believe in single God who is eternal (who has always existed and always will existed). It is fair to say that most traditions within these faiths would say that God is the only thing that is eternal. What this means is that, if God is the only being that is eternal and God is One, then God cannot be love. However, trinitarianism provides a solution to this dilemma: because God exists in more than one person, He is inherently relational. Being, by very His nature, relationship, He is capable of love; in fact, the Trinity brings a whole new level of meaning to St. John's words that God is love (He is not just capable of loving; He is the definition of what love is). Trinitarianism, therefore, uniquely points to the God, who is love.


Brilliant answer IMHO.
:clap::clap::clap:
 
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Site Supporter
Mar 27, 2007
39,246
6,568
On the bus to Heaven
✟242,265.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I'm focusing on these questions because I think that they are the most important. The beautiful thing about trinitarianism is that it points to a God who is inherently relational. He is, in a sense, relationship. The apostle John tells us in his first epistle that God is love. In order for love to exist, it must have both and object and a subject (a loved and a lover). Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all believe in single God who is eternal (who has always existed and always will existed). It is fair to say that most traditions within these faiths would say that God is the only thing that is eternal. What this means is that, if God is the only being that is eternal and God is One, then God cannot be love. However, trinitarianism provides a solution to this dilemma: because God exists in more than one person, He is inherently relational. Being, by very His nature, relationship, He is capable of love; in fact, the Trinity brings a whole new level of meaning to St. John's words that God is love (He is not just capable of loving; He is the definition of what love is). Trinitarianism, therefore, uniquely points to the God, who is love.

Interesting syllogism. I'm going to mull it over for a while but it makes sense. Thanks for posting it.:thumbsup::)
 
Upvote 0
T

Thekla

Guest
I'm focusing on these questions because I think that they are the most important. The beautiful thing about trinitarianism is that it points to a God who is inherently relational. He is, in a sense, relationship. The apostle John tells us in his first epistle that God is love. In order for love to exist, it must have both and object and a subject (a loved and a lover). Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all believe in single God who is eternal (who has always existed and always will existed). It is fair to say that most traditions within these faiths would say that God is the only thing that is eternal. What this means is that, if God is the only being that is eternal and God is One, then God cannot be love. However, trinitarianism provides a solution to this dilemma: because God exists in more than one person, He is inherently relational. Being, by very His nature, relationship, He is capable of love; in fact, the Trinity brings a whole new level of meaning to St. John's words that God is love (He is not just capable of loving; He is the definition of what love is). Trinitarianism, therefore, uniquely points to the God, who is love.

QFT :)

(are you sure you're not EO ? ;))

"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." 1 John 4:8
 
Upvote 0

LamorakDesGalis

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2004
2,198
235
Dallas Texas
✟26,098.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The beautiful thing about trinitarianism is that it points to a God who is inherently relational. He is, in a sense, relationship.

Here is a verse from Paul which underscores the relational aspects in the Trinity:
2 Corinthians 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.


LDG
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chesterton
Upvote 0

MrPolo

Woe those who call evil good + good evil. Is 5:20
Jul 29, 2007
5,871
767
Visit site
✟32,206.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
What does it mean for our Christian lives to believe in a Trinitarian God as opposed to a Monotheistic one like the Jews or Muslims believe in?

I know what you are trying to say, but it will be confusing if you tell someone that Christians are not monotheists. Chrisitians ARE monotheists. There is one God in three divine persons.
If anyone will not confess that the Father, Son and holy Spirit have one nature or substance, that they have one power and authority, that there is a consubstantial Trinity, one Deity to be adored in three subsistences or persons: let him be anathema. There is only one God and Father, from whom all things come, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and one holy Spirit, in whom all things are. (Council of Constantinople, 533 A.D.)
 
Upvote 0

mindlight

See in the dark
Site Supporter
Dec 20, 2003
14,464
3,053
London, UK
✟1,057,524.00
Country
Germany
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The idea runs throughout the New Testament, but is especially made clear at the baptism of Jesus, and in Jesus' words of the Great Commission.

"Let us make man in our image." ;)

Agreed

It says that we live in three dimensions, and the Creator God who created those dimensions is bigger and more and other than we can imagine, which is really somewhat intuitive; if there's a God, I'd expect that to be the case.

The word dimensions confuses me here. That each member of the Trinity gives us a different insight into the nature of the Divine while all being Divine is enough by itself to blow my mind. That all three persons are beyond my imagining, transcending my capacity to comprehend finishes the job. I am looking into the mystery of God wanting to understand something that may be incomprehensible. Yet the desire to know remains even though it blows my brain apart with what is revealed. This not a humanly rational concept really is it.


Maybe the three faces of a cube,

No this does not work for me as a cube has 3 dimensions but 6 sides makes me wonder about 3 extra persons in the Trinity who do not exist. Just cause I cannot see three sides does not mean they do not exist. If I focus on the dimensional illustration I also have a problem as suddenly I am looking at what appears to be a finite object that could include the extra dimension of time for instance as it moves.

or the quantum mechanics idea of superposition, but neither of those are adequate.

This is hardly a simple way of explaining it but I see what you mean

Quantum superposition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Upvote 0

mindlight

See in the dark
Site Supporter
Dec 20, 2003
14,464
3,053
London, UK
✟1,057,524.00
Country
Germany
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
A mirror i) is empty in essence (Father) and thus can ii) reflect by its nature (Spirit) iii) specific manifestations of its energies (Son).

God is not empty, does not merely reflect stuff from others and a mirror is not an energy source. This one does not work for me.


In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. (John 14:20).

This quote is good. The Unity of Jesus and the Father is extended to include the human relationship to the Divine through Christ. That God is One and that we all share in that Unity of the persons of the Trinity.
 
Upvote 0

mindlight

See in the dark
Site Supporter
Dec 20, 2003
14,464
3,053
London, UK
✟1,057,524.00
Country
Germany
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
God is believed to be both immanent (meaning that he is with and within all things), and transcendent (meaning that he is outside space and time, and therefore eternal and unable to be changed by forces within the universe).

The Christian God is understood by Trinitarians as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; a single infinite being who is both within and beyond nature. Because the persons of the Trinity represent a personal relation even on the level of God to himself, he is represented by all Christian denominations to be personal both in his immanence (in his personal relation toward us) and in his transcendence (in his personal relation toward himself).


I like this theme of transcendence and immanence when approaching the Trinity. There are aspects of this relationship beyond our capacity to understand and outside the scope therefore of the human quest for God. There are aspects of this relationship which have direct impact on our own relationship with God and with each other as members of Christs body. God Himself transcends us and is involved in the intimate details of our relationships with the Divine.
 
Upvote 0

cyberlizard

the electric lizard returns
Jul 5, 2007
6,268
569
57
chesterfield, UK
Visit site
✟40,065.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
i would appeal to certain jewish cocepts such as devar adonai, the targumic concept of memra, the motif of shekinah and a whole raft of other pre-new-testament ideas as the bedrock for this belief.

for those looking for a jewish slant, cosider this link.


steve
 
Upvote 0

mindlight

See in the dark
Site Supporter
Dec 20, 2003
14,464
3,053
London, UK
✟1,057,524.00
Country
Germany
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The idea of the Trinity is in the OT. The problem for Protestants is that it is in the Deuterocanonical Books that they reject. Specifically, it is in Ecclesiasticus 24.

“I came out of the mouth of the most High, the firstborn before all creatures: I made that in the heavens there should rise light that never faileth, and as a cloud I covered all the earth: I dwelt in the highest places, and my throne is in a pillar of a cloud. I alone have compassed the circuit of heaven, and have penetrated into the bottom of the deep, and have walked in the waves of the sea, And have stood in all the earth: and in every people, And in every nation I have had the chief rule: And by my power I have trodden under my feet the hearts of all the high and low: and in all these I sought rest, and I shall abide in the inheritance of the Lord. Then the creator of all things commanded, and said to me: and he that made me, rested in my tabernacle, And he said to me: Let thy dwelling be in Jacob, and thy inheritance in Israel, and take root in my elect. From the beginning, and before the world, was I created, and unto the world to come I shall not cease to be, and in the holy dwelling place I have ministered before him. And so was I established in Sion, and in the holy city likewise I rested, and my power was in Jerusalem. ” (Sirach 24:5–15, D-R)

I am not sure this could be used as a defence of the Trinity since the firstborn before all creatures ...was..created in this quote.
 
Upvote 0

mindlight

See in the dark
Site Supporter
Dec 20, 2003
14,464
3,053
London, UK
✟1,057,524.00
Country
Germany
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm focusing on these questions because I think that they are the most important. The beautiful thing about trinitarianism is that it points to a God who is inherently relational. He is, in a sense, relationship. The apostle John tells us in his first epistle that God is love. In order for love to exist, it must have both and object and a subject (a loved and a lover). Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all believe in single God who is eternal (who has always existed and always will existed). It is fair to say that most traditions within these faiths would say that God is the only thing that is eternal. What this means is that, if God is the only being that is eternal and God is One, then God cannot be love. However, trinitarianism provides a solution to this dilemma: because God exists in more than one person, He is inherently relational. Being, by very His nature, relationship, He is capable of love; in fact, the Trinity brings a whole new level of meaning to St. John's words that God is love (He is not just capable of loving; He is the definition of what love is). Trinitarianism, therefore, uniquely points to the God, who is love.

This is the most insightful comment thus far I think. Because God dwells amongst us a man, mere men get to witness an aspect of His nature previously hidden. In relating to us God reveals the eternal love relationship at the heart of His own nature.

There is assurance in this for Christian believers as the love that characterised Christs descent to man (born in humility in a stable) , that motivated the supreme sacrifice of the cross and which now draws us to God, is not a mere whim or a passing phase. It is the very nature of the God who revealed Himself to us in the Incarnation. God is love and therefore when we love Him with all our hearts, minds and wills we do so with good reason to trust that His love for us will endure as it has endured through all eternity. When we love as He loved us we share in a quality of the Divine that transcends the span of creation and our own creaturely limits and draws us into the relational reality of eternal life with Him.
 
Upvote 0