Explaining the God particle

[dad]

..

But wait, why would an atheist resent the discovery of this particle?

Their game is to get as far away from possible from God any all references to Him. When the name becomes a refence TO God, many of them resent the fact that God seems to have pulled a fast one on them, and that even the name that stuck was not their vile little desired one.

 

[sfs]

False. Almost everyone calls it that!

Physicists, who are the only people who normally talk about the Higgs, never call it "the God particle".

If we resort to higgs boson or some such name, they start wavering and admit it is still not known. You can call Christmas xmas if you like, but we all know what is being talked about They even refer to the collider as the genesis machine!!!! Not just hilbillies either. Here is an example..




"This is a huge step toward unraveling Genesis Chapter 1, Verse 1 - what happened in the beginning," physicist Michio Kaku told The Associated Press.

"This is a Genesis machine. It'll help to recreate the most glorious event in the history of the universe."

Atom Smasher Could Reveal "The Beginning" - CBS News

Kaku is a blowhard who likes to hear himself talk and is prone to spouting about all sorts of things. No, physicists do not call the collider a "Genesis machine".

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

Their game is to get as far away from possible from God any all references to Him. When the name becomes a refence TO God, many of them resent the fact that God seems to have pulled a fast one on them, and that even the name that stuck was not their vile little desired one.

Honestly, I think that the disdain for the nickname "The God Particle" is partially because it's sensationalistic, and partially because it's not descriptive at all. A Higgs Boson is just an excitation in the Higgs Field, a quantum field that gives particles their mass. Most Higgs Bosons are "virtual" and give mass to a particle existing in the Higgs Field (I put virtual in parentheses because a virtual particle does exist, just not for very long). The Higgs Boson that the LHC is looking for and has possibly found is a rarer, short-lived "real" boson that exists independently of other particles moving through the field.

That's really very important, but "the mass particle" would be a more descriptive nickname. "The God Particle" is not only inaccurate, but I'm also not entirely comfortable with it because it's a little offensive to attach God's name to a fluctuation in a quantum field.

 

[walkingxshadow]

From what I understand this recent "discovery" of the higgs only proves what they've been assuming for years. It doesn't really change a whole lot. Now they can point and say "hey looky there. That's the force carrying particle for mass". The term "god particle" is a bit of a misnomer I believe.

Edit:
And another thing. I don't see why ppl get so worked up over these kinds of discoveries. The higgs boson is essentially just another subatomic particle. Like protons neutrons and electons. When those were first theorized then discovered ppl flipped out then too. But now its common knowledge. The higgs is just a building block of what matter is well...built of. No reason to drag religious philosophy into it. There's nothing philosophical about it. It just is. That's like getting upset when some says that oak table is made from wood. There's nothing to argue cuz well...it is made from wood. Fact is fact. Just because sub atomic particles aren't mentioned in scripture doesn't make them "godless" or "nonexistent". If that was the rule what about airplanes cars or tvs? Does God really have to tell us everything or can when use the wisdom he gave us to figure a couple things out for ourselves?

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

From what I understand this recent "discovery" of the higgs only proves what they've been assuming for years. It doesn't really change a whole lot. Now they can point and say "hey looky there. That's the force carrying particle for mass". The term "god particle" is a bit of a misnomer I believe.

Correct on all counts.

One of the hallmarks of scientific method is models that make predictions.

 

[walkingxshadow]

Correct on all counts.

One of the hallmarks of scientific method is models that make predictions.

Haha thanx. I dwell more in the realm of biology and chemistry. Physics isn't exactly my expertise. But I do like to stay current and have a working knowledge of atleast the big picture. Also added a minor rant to the end of my last post haha.

 

[dad]

Physicists, who are the only people who normally talk about the Higgs, never call it "the God particle".

Whether physicists are normal I will leave for another thread. However, the now famous God particle from the Genesis Machine is talked about by untold millions! The genie is out of the box, they cannot control it just because they get angry about God being in the picture front and center! They must grin and bear it.

Kaku is a blowhard who likes to hear himself talk and is prone to spouting about all sorts of things. No, physicists do not call the collider a "Genesis machine".

Ha, so now when a physicist calls something by a name you call him names. Try to deal with reality. The creation debate and all particles must include God, or they are resigned to the trash heap of utter insignificance.

 

[dad]

Honestly, I think that the disdain for the nickname "The God Particle" is partially because it's sensationalistic, and partially because it's not descriptive at all.

Yes it is!! That is why they get worked up. It describes God associated with small stuff involved in creation.

A Higgs Boson is just an excitation in the Higgs Field, a quantum field that gives particles their mass.

Not confirmed yet...remember? Maybe it would be better to say.."likely associated in the process that is not understood of manufacturing mass"?

Most Higgs Bosons are "virtual" and give mass to a particle existing in the Higgs Field (I put virtual in parentheses because a virtual particle does exist, just not for very long). The Higgs Boson that the LHC is looking for and has possibly found is a rarer, short-lived "real" boson that exists independently of other particles moving through the field.

Ha. That's what they sort of think. Not a fact by any means yet.

That's really very important, but "the mass particle" would be a more descriptive nickname. "The God Particle" is not only inaccurate, but I'm also not entirely comfortable with it because it's a little offensive to attach God's name to a fluctuation in a quantum field.

He is involved in all things and by Him all thing consist. This is news? The God particle is more accurate than your imaginary field monikers!

 

[sfs]

Ha, so now when a physicist calls something by a name you call him names.

I've called Kaku names for years.

Try to deal with reality.

Unconscious irony appears to be your strong suit.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

From what I understand this recent "discovery" of the higgs only proves what they've been assuming for years. It doesn't really change a whole lot. Now they can point and say "hey looky there. That's the force carrying particle for mass". The term "god particle" is a bit of a misnomer I believe.

Well, the Standard Model predicted the existence of the Higgs Boson, but there were other versions of the Higgs Mechanism that wouldn't have needed to include it. This goes a long way toward proving that the Standard Model is the most accurate, since it was the last particle that I know of predicted in the Standard Model that had never been observed.

 

[walkingxshadow]

Well, the Standard Model predicted the existence of the Higgs Boson, but there were other versions of the Higgs Mechanism that wouldn't have needed to include it. This goes a long way toward proving that the Standard Model is the most accurate, since it was the last particle that I know of predicted in the Standard Model that had never been observed.

The philosophical nerd inside of me wants to ask, "what is is?"

Haha I'm not a physicist I just try not to be completely ignorant of big goings on.

 

[dad]

I've called Kaku names for years.

Unconscious irony appears to be your strong suit.

Thanks. Invisible evidence seems to be your strong suit. But you see the God particle is just what the thing has come to be called. Not just by uneducated either. Here is a few students using the term....

"
Haibowal resident Manpreet Kaur, who is pursuing her masters in biochemistry, says "I am sure the discovery of God particle will help in a better scientific understanding of the creation of universe."

A masters student in nematology, Harjot Singh says, "Discovery of any new particle helps a great deal to unlock the mysteries of universe. This discovery will not only be beneficial to physicists but God particle will also help research in biology and chemistry." Satvir Singh Hans, a bachelors student of veterinary sciences at PAU, says, "I am sure the scientists will soon come up with its significance. Its discovery is a boon to humanity."

With the world going gaga over the Higgs boson particle, budding scientists from Ludhiana to share their views of the same. "The subatomic particles not only help in research, but also have widespread use in health care, food industry and nuclear energy generation," says Satvir Singh Hans, a bachelors student of veterinary sciences at PAU.

A research fellow in plant pathology and Raj Guru Nagar resident Harpreet Kaur says physics continues to change our lives with the discovery of this new particle. "From iPhones to computers, all these equipment use our knowledge on the sub-atomic particles. "God particle" will bring another revolution in our lives," she adds."

‘God particle’ excites science buffs - The Times of India


Now, here is what is claimed..


" the Higgs mechanism is often credited with explaining the "origin" or "genesis" of mass.[4] But there is some doubt as to whether the Higgs mechanism provides sufficient insight into the actual nature of mass. As Max Jammer puts it, "if a process “generates” mass it may reasonably be expected to provide information about the nature of what it “generates” as well".[5] But in the Higgs mechanism, mass is not "generated" in the particle by a miraculous creatio ex nihilo, it is transferred to the particle from the Higgs field, which contained that mass in the form of energy, and "neither the Higgs mechanism nor its elaborations...contribute to our understanding of the nature of mass".[6] The "machinery" of the Higgs mechanism, the procedure by which spontaneous symmetry breaking endows gauge fields of zero mass with mass, is based on the assumption of the existence of a scalar field, the "Higgs field", which permeates all of space"


Introduction to the Higgs field - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The assumption that something pervades all of space is just speculation. As to some vague 'field' that transfers energy to mass....that is not saying much! The word of God force could be what generates mass. In earth and area if that mass is physical...then physical mass is generated. In deep space, if material or 'mass' was also spiritual in nature and composition, then the WOG force would generate that too. Good is not limited to physical only mass.

Anyone think they can tell us precisely what a higgs field is? (besides some vague area of sorts where magical tranfers of energy take place) Anyone think they can tell us how energy is transferred in what we can refer to as a 'field'?? I guess smashing stuff has limited info potential.

 

[dad]

Well, the Standard Model predicted the existence of the Higgs Boson,

They need some mysterious field where a tranfer of energy to matter can take place. Creation also sees matter being made from where none was! So?

but there were other versions of the Higgs Mechanism that wouldn't have needed to include it. This goes a long way toward proving that the Standard Model is the most accurate, since it was the last particle that I know of predicted in the Standard Model that had never been observed.

They know something somewhere somehow needs to turn energy into mass. Whoopee do. The particles and whatnots they had alone could not do it. So there must have been something else. Wow...ya think?

The philosophical nerd inside of me wants to ask, "what is is?"

Good question. Science has no clue is the answer.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

Haha I'm not a physicist I just try not to be completely ignorant of big goings on.

The closest I've ever coming to being a physicist is playing Half Life 2. Didn't want to give you the impression that I was good at math

Good question. Science has no clue is the answer.

Ah, but theology and philosophy do. EDIT: I'm not sure whether or not I was right or not, so I'm editing.

I just thought that saying that something wasn't philosophical and then saying, "it just is" was kind of funny, given that there's a bit of a joke that philosophy is basically contemplating a wall and asking if it exists.

 

[dad]

Ah, but theology and philosophy do. Out of a variety of possible things, the thing which is real is the one which is not only possible but also actual. Existing in actuality rather than just potentiality, in sort of Aristotelian terms. Frankly, it's also the basis of any objective sense of reality. It's something that we know intuitively, but if you think about how something is totally existing right in front of you, then it makes your brain hurt a little. Also, it makes you sound like a hippie watching a lava lamp.

Not sure philosophy knows how God manufactured mass from energy actually. Perhaps philosophy might help the science folks say how many little universe stuffed in singularities could fit on the head of a pin?

I just thought that saying that something wasn't philosophical and then saying, "it just is" was kind of funny, given that there's a bit of a joke that philosophy is basically contemplating a wall and asking if it exists.

I tend to agree that to make something hard science and knowledge based, there needs to be more going on than nerds saying "it just is".

 

[walkingxshadow]

The closest I've ever coming to being a physicist is playing Half Life 2. Didn't want to give you the impression that I was good at math

Ah, but theology and philosophy do. Out of a variety of possible things, the thing which is real is the one which is not only possible but also actual. Existing in actuality rather than just potentiality, in sort of Aristotelian terms. Frankly, it's also the basis of any objective sense of reality. It's something that we know intuitively, but if you think about how something is totally existing right in front of you, then it makes your brain hurt a little. Also, it makes you sound like a hippie watching a lava lamp.

I just thought that saying that something wasn't philosophical and then saying, "it just is" was kind of funny, given that there's a bit of a joke that philosophy is basically contemplating a wall and asking if it exists.

Haha I've taken alg based physics and will be taking physical chemistry starting in the fall. Which is essentially the love child of physics and chemistry....its gunna be fun*sarcasm*

 

[sfs]

Tha But you see the God particle is just what the thing has come to be called. Not just by uneducated either. Here is a few students using the term....

As I said, physicists don't call it that. Since it's their baby, they should get to name it.

The assumption that something pervades all of space is just speculation.

Exactly correct. Pure speculation, nothing else. Going ahead and calculating something measurable based on that assumption turns the speculation into a prediction. Testing that prediction by doing experiments turns it into physics. All of this was done for the Higgs mechanism years ago, when the ratio of the masses of the W and Z bosons was predicted based on it. Finding the Higgs boson itself suggests (although it certainly doesn't yet prove) that the Higgs mechanism works through the simplest possible Higgs, rather than some more elaborate set of particles.

As to some vague 'field' that transfers energy to mass....that is not saying much!

No, it's not. The Higgs field is not at all vague, however. It's quite well defined mathematically.

Anyone think they can tell us precisely what a higgs field is?

Yup -- it's all there, written down in textbooks in great detail. Just learn the math, and you too can understand the Higgs.

 

[dad]

As I said, physicists don't call it that. Since it's their baby, they should get to name it.

They didn't though. Guess we need to deal with reality. It is commonly called the God Particle.

Exactly correct. Pure speculation, nothing else. Going ahead and calculating something measurable based on that assumption turns the speculation into a prediction. Testing that prediction by doing experiments turns it into physics. All of this was done for the Higgs mechanism years ago, when the ratio of the masses of the W and Z bosons was predicted based on it.

Vague and fairly meaningless. What does it mean? 'IF a field exists of some unknown nature (higgs we can call it) and mass was made using it on earth somehow (we know not how) then some steps on the way would involve what we can call bosons that would have to be a certain mass and ratio for physical matter......then blah blah'

Finding the Higgs boson itself suggests (although it certainly doesn't yet prove) that the Higgs mechanism works through the simplest possible Higgs, rather than some more elaborate set of particles.

Can you elaborate and explain what a simple or complicated or any other kind of "possible Higgs" really is!!?

No, it's not. The Higgs field is not at all vague, however. It's quite well defined mathematically.

Numbers have to represent something. We can look at your numbers if you like.

Yup -- it's all there, written down in textbooks in great detail. Just learn the math, and you too can understand the Higgs.

Balderdash.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

Haha I've taken alg based physics and will be taking physical chemistry starting in the fall. Which is essentially the love child of physics and chemistry....its gunna be fun*sarcasm*

Hm...I knew someone who took that once. She made an A somehow, and I still wonder what sort of alien creature removed her brain and replaced it with that of one of its own people. I've taken some chemistry, but I'm really more into anatomy and biology. I thought that I wanted to be a doctor for a while, but yeah, I'm terrified of the idea that someone else's life might depend on my ability not to go air-headed

 

[walkingxshadow]

Hm...I knew someone who took that once. She made an A somehow, and I still wonder what sort of alien creature removed her brain and replaced it with that of one of its own people. I've taken some chemistry, but I'm really more into anatomy and biology. I thought that I wanted to be a doctor for a while, but yeah, I'm terrified of the idea that someone else's life might depend on my ability not to go air-headed

I'm pretty good at chenistry which is why I'm seeking a bs in it. Already have a bs in bio and biochem. This will just round off the trifecta haha