Explain Trinity

Serapha · Dec 1, 2003

jessedance said:
would someone be so kind as to explain to me the trinity using only biblical terminology? Oh gee, trinity isn't a biblical word. This is going to be hard.

Hi there!

Once upon a time there was an eyewitness to the workings of God. He walked and talked with the Lord daily, and he grew to love the Lord in a very special way. And the Lord grew to love him in a very special way.

Because of this, the Lord called this special eyewitness to His works, the disciple whom He loved, and the eyewitness became known as the disciple whom Jesus loved. Jesus loved this disciple above his own brothers, and one of His dying requests would be for the eyewitness whom Jesus loved to take His earthly mother into his care. And the disciple whom Jesus loved did take Mary into his home.

And what is the importance of the disciple who was an eyewitness to the workings of Christ? He was also the eyewitness to the events that tell of the second coming of Christ.

This eyewitness, of course, was John, the disciple whom Jesus loved.

John specifically describes the throne of God in Revelation, Chapter 4. John writes in Revelation 1:1 that this is the revelation of Jesus Christ given by God, Himself, to John; And John describes the throne of God in heaven. A singular throne was in heaven (4:2) and one sat on the throne (the Father).

There is no temple in the Holy City because Rev 21:22 states the Lord God almighty AND the Lamb are the temple.... together they are the singular temple. There is no need for the sun because the singular light is from the glory of God and the Lamb is the light. God and the Lamb are the singular light (21:23)

John, the eyewitness, continues to discuss the singular throne of God in verse 22:3 where there is no more curse, but the [singular] throne of God AND of the Lamb shall be. And there is the Holy Spirit with the Lamb. You see the eye witness saw the Lamb, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father on the singular throne. He didn't see a three-headed monster with six eyes, but he saw God as one. John specifically describes hideous things that he saw.... the war with satan, the destruction, the armies of God assembled for war. If the trinity were the hideous creature you believe it to be, John would have described a hideous creature. John didn't appear to have a problem with the workings of the total essence of God.

That would be why John could so easily write of the divinity of Christ and record the words that "I and the Father are one". John knew that they were the same, both being God. The eyewitness knew that Jesus Christ the Son and God the Father were one.

~malaka~

Serapha · Dec 1, 2003

jessedance said:
And no I do not want to hear insults, I try and avoid insulting people , certainly I don't insult anyone on a regular basis and not intentionaly ever., and i would say not overtly if i do.

incidently, I use to know a greek person from greece and he taught me some dirty greek words, before I became a christian, malaka is a dirty word in modern greek, I dont know if its spelled as you spell it but it is pronounced that way.

Hi there!

Sir, you are doing just exactly what you accused the first poster on this thread of doing.... resorting to demeaning comments....

now... you criticized them for their conduct.

jessedance said:
Der Alter;
I see your up to your usual format
First, insult the person your responding to...

Not a christ like thing to insult people. Der alter do you always have to start a letter to someone with an insult? is it manditory?.....

Do you think you could try and respond to this letter without starting your response off with an insult directed at me? Give it a try for once

~malaka~

TOmNossor · Dec 1, 2003

Jessedance,

I have researched the council of Nicea and the time following it. For almost the entire fourth century the relationship between Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father was debated. These men had the books of the Bible that we have. I believe that the Bible is the word of God so far as it is translated correctly. This does not technically preclude what you speak of, but I stay rather agnostic on this. The fact is that the JW group that started the JW religion used the Bible that we have today. If I understand correctly, they thought that it taught what Catholics call the Arian Heresy. I do not think one can demand that the Bible is strictly Trinitarian and the almost 100 years of conflict in the 4th century evidences this.

It is interesting that you mentioned Eusibius. He was a semi-Arian. Much of Nicea was associated with convincing the semi-Arians to take a position that would not allow the Arians to be part of Christianity.

Anyway, a Catholic and a LDS will acknowledge that the Bible does not produce one single reasonable theology. A Catholic and a LDS will recognize the need for a teaching authority and/or tradition. So, I know that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost make up a divine Trinity (the structure I embrace is called a Social Trinity), because I have scriptures in addition to the Bible which are Trinitarian and I have authoritative teachers.

Charity, TOm

Der Alte · Dec 1, 2003

jessedance said:
Der Alter;
I see your up to your usual format
First, insult the person your responding to, you said,

"Oh, gee Jesse this is just so difficult. We have have never heard this before. You are so clever. Not! "

Not a christ like thing to insult people. Der alter do you always have to start a letter to someone with an insult? is it manditory?

Let me get this straight, when I paraphrase what you said it is insulting but not when you said it? Is that about right? Do you think it is alright to talk down to people with snide remarks, as you did?

Both of the scriptures I quoted were NOT interpolations! As you noted we have been down this road before. You quoted one (1) source Ploughman, the same site you linked to in this post, and did NOT verify any of the primary sources yourself. And even one of the so-called sources that Ploughman quotes, no longer exists, if it ever did.

Your only argument is that Eusebius, who OBTW was an Arian, seemingly does not quote the triadic formula until after the Nicaean council. Let us ignore that Eusebius frequently only quoted parts of verses, not just Matt 28:19.

#58 - Mat 28:19 - Was the trinitarian formula in this verse a corruption?

The definitive United Bible Society's Greek New Testament, 4th Revised Edition, (UBS4), which is identical with the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testement, 27th Edition (NA27), has the following reading of Matthew 28:19, which is very similar to the Nestle text that you cite:

Poreuthentes oun matheteusate panta ta ethen, baptizontes autous eis to onoma tou patros kai tou huiou kai tou hagiou pneumatos.

The New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), which is based upon the UBS4/NA27 Greek New Testament, translates this verse:

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Nowhere in either the critical apparatus footnotes of the Greek text nor in Bruce Metzger's definitive A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, Second Edition, is there any mention of variants of this text that do not have "eis to onoma tou patros kai tou huiou kai tou hagiou pneumatos" ["in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"]. None of the many editions of the Greek New Testament that I have in my library even mentions a possible alternate rendering. Even members of the very skeptical "Jesus Seminar" (Robert J. Miller, Editor, The Complete Gospels, San Francisco: HarperCollins, 1994, p. 114) have unconditionally noted:

28:19 The Father and the son and the holy spirit is the earliest Trinitarian formula in the New Testament.

The only references that I could find to any alternative views on the subject are the following:

The HarperCollins Study Bible with the Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical Books (edited by Wayne Meeks and the Society of Biblical Liberature, San Francisco: HarperCollins, 1993, page 1914):

The Father and ... the Son and ... the Holy Spirit. This explicit trinitarian formula is rare in the NT and probably derives from early Christian worship.

The International Critical Commentary: St. Matthew, Third Edition (by Willoughby C. Allen, Edinburgh: T&T Clark, n.d., pages 307-308):

The evidence of Eusebius must be regarded as indecisive, in view of the fact that all Greek MSS. and all extant VSS., contain the clause (S1 S2 are unhappily wanting). The Eusebian quotation: poreuthentes matheteusate panta ta ethen en to onomati mou may be Eusebius' way of abbreviating, for whatever reason, the following clause. On the other hand, Eusebius cites in this short form so often that it is easier to suppose that he is definitely quoting the words of the Gospel, than it is to invent possible reasons which have caused him so frequently to paraphrase it. An if we once suppose his short form to have been current in MSS. of the Gospel, there is much probability in the conjecture that it is the original text of the Gospel, and that in the second century the clause paptizontes autous eis to onoma, k.t.l., supplanted the shorter en tow onomati mou. An insertion of this kind derived from liturgical use would very rapdily be adopted by copyists and translators. The Didache has, chapter 7: baptisate eis to onoma tou patros kai ton uiou kai tou hagiou gneumatos. but the passage need not be dependent on our canonical Gospel, and the Didache elsewhere has a liturgical addition to the texts of the Gospels in the doxology attached to the Lord's Prayer. But Irenaeus [120-202 AD] and Tertullian [145-220 AD] already have the longer clause.

In summary, there is overwhelming manuscript evidence for, and no credible evidence to the contrary, that Matthew 28:19 originally included that Trinitarian formula.

http://www.bibletexts.com/qa/qa058.htm

The Johannine Comma: 1 John 5:7

Now, to specifics, the evidence for the early existence of the Johannine Comma is found in the following sources (some abbreviations are made when quoting the source - if there are questions, I can give the specifics):

1) 200 - Tertullian quotes the verse (Gill, "An exposition of the NT", Vol 2, pp. 907-8)

2) 250 - Cyprian, who writes, "And again concerning the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit it is written: 'and the Three are One'" (Vienna, vol. iii, p. 215)

3) 350 - Priscillian cites the verse (Vienna, vol. xviii, p. 6)

4) 350 - Idacius Clarus cites the verse (MPL, vol. 62, col. 359)

5) 350 - Athanasius cites the verse (Gill)

6) 415 - Council of Carthage appeals to the verse as a basic text proving a fundamental doctrine when contending with the Arians (Ruckman, "History of the NT Church", Vol. I, p. 146)

7) 450-530 - several orthodox African writers quote the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:

A) Vigilius Tapensis (MPL, vol. 62, col. 243)

B) Victor Vitensis (Vienna, vol. vii, p. 60)

C) Fulgentius (MPL, vol. 65, col. 500)

8) 500 - Cassiodorus cites the verse (MPL, vol. 70, col. 1373)

9) 550 - Old Latin ms r has the verse

10) 550 - The "Speculum" contains the verse

11) 750 - Wianburgensis cites the verse

12) 800 - Jerome's Vulgate includes the verse

13) 1150 - minuscule ms 88 in the margin

14) 1200-1400 - Waldensian Bibles have the verse

15) 1500 - ms 61 has the verse

16) various witnesses cited in Nestle's 26th edition for a replacement of the text as it stands with the Comma: 221 v.l.;2318 vg[cl]; 629; 61; 88; 429 v.l.; 636 v.l.; 918; l; r; and other important Latin mss.

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/1john57.htm

Recognize that all true Christians will be Armenian in Glory. . .

Der Alte · Dec 1, 2003

Malaka said:
Hi there!

John, the eyewitness, continues to discuss the singular throne of God in verse 22:3 where there is no more curse, but the [singular] throne of God AND of the Lamb shall be. And there is the Holy Spirit with the Lamb. You see the eye witness saw the Lamb, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father on the singular throne. He didn't see a three-headed monster with six eyes, but he saw God as one. John specifically describes hideous things that he saw.... the war with satan, the destruction, the armies of God assembled for war. If the trinity were the hideous creature you believe it to be, John would have described a hideous creature. John didn't appear to have a problem with the workings of the total essence of God.

~malaka~

Let us not overlook Rev 3:21 also written by the disciple that Jesus loved. Note, Jesus said, " am set down WITH my Father in HIS throne." With the Father and NOT on Jesus' throne but on "His," the Father's, throne. And, as you have noted, John continually emphasizes one throne and one on the throne.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Ben johnson · Dec 2, 2003

Trinity = Schizophrenic being
Or so I was told

This is of course referring to something _I_ said. And I also CORRECTED the term: "Schizophrenia is a disassociation between thought and emotion". It is NOT "multiple personality".

Ben did NOT say "SCHIZOPHRENIA", Ben CORRECTED the wrongly-used-term, please receive the correction.

What I SAID, was that one BEING CAN exist with several personalities; and I gave Sybili (who developed 9 distinct personalities in order to survive her horrible maternal abuse) only as an example that it is POSSIBLE.

The ONLY correlation that God has with this, is that Jesus, and the Father, and the SPIRIT, are separate PERSONS. Of this there can be no doubt.

Jesus is God.
The Father is God.
The Spirit is God.
There is also no doubt that EACH is GOD.

1 + 1 + 1 = 3! But there is ONLY ONE GOD!

There is only one way to understand it --- one BEING, who exists in three PERSONS.

Jesus is the only God I need!

Then you're in for a major problem. Salvation is FELLOWSHIP:
"Our FELLOWSHIP is with the Father, AND with His Son, JESUS CHRIST." 1Jn1:3

Salvation is FELLOWSHIP with God, and with Jesus; and other passages speak of fellowship with the Spirit. Salvation is INDWELT by Jesus, and INDWELT by the Spirit.

If you have fellowship with only ONE of them, HOW IS IT SALVATION?
We must approach God on HIS terms, not on ours...

MattMMMan17 · Dec 2, 2003

The trinity. Three Divine persons in one Divine nature. The person answers the question, "who?"- Father, Son, or Holy Ghost. The nature answers the question, "what?" - God

Talyn · Dec 2, 2003

Ok i'm confused? What is the trinity? Is it as Ben said:

one BEING, who exists in three PERSONS.

Or is it ONE person? I always thought the trinity meant ONE person.

ie: Jesus = God in the flesh.

Der Alte · Dec 2, 2003

Talyn said:
Ok i'm confused? What is the trinity? Is it as Ben said:
Or is it ONE person? I always thought the trinity meant ONE person.

ie: Jesus = God in the flesh.

Maybe this is part of the difficulty here. People trying to discuss the Trinity when they don't even understand what is is they are discussing. Trinity=tri-unity, three who, one what.

Ben johnson · Dec 2, 2003

Talyn, we can prove Jesus is God; we know that the Father is God, we can prove the Spirit is God. Now, the fact that there are separate PERSONALITIES, is also provable --- look at Matt24:36 --- there are things that the FATHER knows, that the Son does NOT.

But all Scripture must harmonize; so we have three separate PERSONS, each DIVINE (each fully GOD); yet Scripture says ONE GOD. There is only one answer: one Being, three persons.

Look at John 14 (8-10 for example) --- Jesus says, "Why do you say 'SHOW US THE FATHER'? He who has seen Me HAS SEEN THE FATHER!' " This really only makes sense if Jesus is PART of the ONE GOD. But doesn't deny that the Father is a different PERSON than Jesus.

Look at Genesis: "God said, 'Let US make man in OUR image.' And God created man in HIS own image..." 1:26,28 First GOD, is PLURAL; and then He is SINGULAR.

I'm not saying that we completely UNDERSTAND the duality, but we can kinda make SENSE of it.

GOD is one BEING; but He has three personalities. It is as IF there are three beings, but each is fully part of the Godhead.

And now you know as much as we do. Someday,we will have more answers than we do now...

xsimmsx · Dec 2, 2003

Ben johnson said:
Talyn, we can prove Jesus is God; we know that the Father is God, we can prove the Spirit is God. Now, the fact that there are separate PERSONALITIES, is also provable --- look at Matt24:36 --- there are things that the FATHER knows, that the Son does NOT.

But all Scripture must harmonize; so we have three separate PERSONS, each DIVINE (each fully GOD); yet Scripture says ONE GOD. There is only one answer: one Being, three persons.

Look at John 14 (8-10 for example) --- Jesus says, "Why do you say 'SHOW US THE FATHER'? He who has seen Me HAS SEEN THE FATHER!' " This really only makes sense if Jesus is PART of the ONE GOD. But doesn't deny that the Father is a different PERSON than Jesus.

Look at Genesis: "God said, 'Let US make man in OUR image.' And God created man in HIS own image..." 1:26,28 First GOD, is PLURAL; and then He is SINGULAR.

I'm not saying that we completely UNDERSTAND the duality, but we can kinda make SENSE of it.

GOD is one BEING; but He has three personalities. It is as IF there are three beings, but each is fully part of the Godhead.

And now you know as much as we do. Someday,we will have more answers than we do now...

That doesn't prove persons. Things the father knows that the Son does not. First of all what Son is being referenced? And besides the scripture says that he Jesus the Son of God knows all things. If he knows all things then how does he not know something? You can't prove persons for there aren't persons there is One person his name is Jesus. Jesus is Father in the Flesh. When you see a distinction it is between Spirit and Flesh. OR as you say Father and Son. or God and man. That is the distinction not multiple personality disorder.

roadie432002 · Dec 2, 2003

the docrine of the Trinity asserts that there is one God that exists in three Persons:one divine essence which expresses itself always in three coequal,coeternal subsistences:the Father,the Son,and the Holy Spirit.Various metaphors have been used as ways of imagining the idea of three in one.The shamrock.Ice, water and steam are three states of the same compound.A person consists of body,soul,and spirit.The biblical evidence that compels Christians to adopt the trinitarian position consists of passages that treat each Person of the Trinity as equally divine and passages that group Father,Son and Spirit together.Matthew 3:16,17:28:19.John 14:15-23:15:26:,16: 13-15.Acts 2:32,33.1 Corinthians 12:4-6.2nd Corinthians 13:14.Galatians 4:4-6.Ephesians 1:2-14,2:18,4:4-6.Philippians 3:3.Hbrews 10:10-15.1 Peter 1:2.1 John 5:1-12.

KennySe · Dec 2, 2003

xsimmsx said:
Jesus is Father in the Flesh.

No. Absolutely not.

Jesus is The Word. The Word is God and the Word is with God.

The Word became flesh.

The Father did not become flesh.

Jesus prayed to the Father who is in heaven.
The Father spoke from on high when Jesus was baptized by John.
Jesus prayed to the Father when jesus was in the garden before His Passion.

Emmanuel: God with us
(NOT> Father with us)

KennySe · Dec 2, 2003

jessedance said:
would someone be so kind as to explain to me the trinity using only biblical terminology? Oh gee, trinity isn't a biblical word. This is going to be hard.

FIrst, here is an explanation of the Blessed Trinity.

http://www.holybible.com/resources/athanasius_creed.htm

The Athanasian Creed is that latest of the ecumenical creeds, dating back to the early dark ages. Though seldom used in worship, it is one of the clearest definitions of the Trinity and the incarnation ever written.

The Creed of Athanasius

Whosoever will be saved,
before all things it is is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith.
Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled,
without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity
in Unity,
neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son,
and another of the Holy Ghost.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one,
the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son,
and such is the Holy Ghost.
The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate,
and the Holy Ghost uncreate.
The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible,
and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal,
and the Holy Ghost eternal.
And yet they are not three eternals,
but one eternal.
As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated,
but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible.
So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty,
and the Holy Ghost Almighty.
And yet they are not three Almighties,
but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God,
and the Holy Ghost is God.
And yet they are not three Gods,
but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord,
and the Holy Ghost Lord.
And yet not three Lords,
but one Lord.
For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge ever y
Person by Himself to be both God and Lord,
so we are forbidden by the Catholic Religion, to say, there be three Gods,
or three Lords.
The Father is made of none,
neither created, nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone,
not made, nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Ghost is of the Father [and of the Son],
neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons;
one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.
And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other; none is greater, or l ess
than another;
but the whole three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal.
So that in all things, as is aforesaid,
the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved
must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation
that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ .
For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess,
that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.
God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds;
and Man, of the Substance of His Mother, born in the world;
Perfect God and perfect Man,
of a reasonable soul in human flesh subsisting;
Equal to the Father, as touching His Godhead;
and inferior to the Father, as touching His Manhood.
Who, although He be God and Man,
yet He is not two, but one Christ;
One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh,
but by taking of the Manhood into God;
One altogether; not by confusion of Substance,
but by unity of Person.
For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man,
so God and Man is one Christ.
Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell,
rose again the third day from the dead.
He ascended into heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God
Almighty,
from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
At whose coming all men shall rise with their bodies
and shall give account for their own works.
And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting;
and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully,
he cannot be saved.

Amen.

Serapha · Dec 2, 2003

jessedance said:
Miles;

Biblical terminology would be words that are in the bible. The bible was written in greek, hebrew , and chaldeean. We have translations of the words god used because we do not speak those languages. I'm not sure what you mean, but I do not mean by biblical terminology that we use words in the bible from the original language. If one's doctrine is based on a whole host of non-biblical terminology such as the trinity is, it should raise a lot of red flags in your mind, in my opinion. If one cannot explain ones biblical doctrine without resorting to using massive amounts of terminology that is not in the bible, such as , trinity, triune, 3rd person, 2nd person, 1st person, co-eternal, co-equal, pre-existant christ, God the son, God the holy ghost, true god from true god, eternaly begotten (what on earth does that mean?) and many more , then one should reject it. in my opinion. And i do.

Hi there!

The poster asked that the thread be in biblical terms.... discussions on doctrinal interpretation are not "in biblical terms".

Perhaps, a second thread needs to be started concering the "doctrine" of the trinity to include theological reasoning and not being limited to "in biblical terms".

~malaka~

KennySe · Dec 2, 2003

jessedance said:
would someone be so kind as to explain to me the trinity using only biblical terminology? Oh gee, trinity isn't a biblical word. This is going to be hard.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html

The Divinity of Jesus

I. Old and New Testament Parallels of God the Father and God the Son

Exodus 3:14 - God says "I AM who I AM" - John 8:58 - Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I AM" in reference to Himself.

Deut. 4:2; 12:32 - the Lord God commands that we not add or take away from His word - Rev. 22:18-19 - Jesus so commands us not to add or take away from His word.

Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6 - the Lord kills and makes alive again and raises up - Jn 5:21 - the Son raises and gives life.

Deut. 32:39 - neither is there any that can deliver out of God's hand - John 10:28 - nor shall any pluck out of Jesus' hand.

Deut. 32:43 - rejoice, ye heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him - Heb. 1:6 - the "Him" is Jesus the Son.

2 Sam. 22:3 - God is the horn of salvation - Luke 1:68-69 - Jesus is the horn of salvation.

Psalm 19:7 - the law of the Lord is perfect - Gal. 6:2 - fulfill the law of Christ.

Psalm 24:10 - the Lord is the King of glory - 1 Cor. 2:8 - Jesus is the Lord of glory.

Psalm 45:7 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. God calls someone else God. This someone else is His eternally begotten Son - Heb. 1:9 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. cf. Heb. 1:8, 10.

Psalm 62:12 - the Lord God renders to each according to his work - Matt. 16:27; Rev. 22:12 - Jesus so renders to each according to his work.

Psalm 71:5 - the Lord God is our hope - 1 Tim. 1:1 - the Lord Jesus Christ who is our hope.

Psalm 97:9 - the Lord God is above all - John 3:31 - Jesus is above all.

Psalms 110:1 - the Lord (Yahweh) said to my Lord - Jesus = Yhwh - Acts 2:34-36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ.

Psalm 148:1-2 - the angels worship the Lord God - Heb. 1:6 - the angels worship Jesus. Only God is worshiped.

Prov. 3:12 - who the Lord loves He corrects - Rev. 3:19 - who Jesus loves He corrects.

Isaiah 7:14 - a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel which means "God is with us" - Matt. 1:23 - this Son is Jesus Christ, God in the flesh.

Isaiah 9:6 - the child to be born shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 25:8 - God swallows up death in victory - 2 Tim. 1:10 - Jesus abolishes death and brings life and immortality.

Isaiah 40:8 - the Word of God shall stand forever - Matt. 24:35 - the Words of Jesus shall not pass away.

Isaiah 42:8 - God gives His glory to no other - John 17:5; Heb. 1:3 - yet Jesus has the same glory as the Father.

Isaiah 43:14 - the Lord God is redeemer - Titus 2:14 - Jesus is the redeemer.

Isaiah 44:6 - the Lord God is the first and the last - Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13 - Jesus is the first and the last.

Isaiah 45:19 - I, the Lord God, did not speak in secret - John 18:20 - Jesus said "I have said nothing secretly."

Isaiah 45:23 - to God, every knee shall bow and every tongue swear. Phil. 2:10-11 - at Jesus' name every knee should bow and tongue confess.

Isaiah 48:17 - God is the Holy One - Acts 3:14 - Jesus is the Holy One.

Isaiah 60:19 - God is everlasting light - Revelation 21:23 - Jesus the Lamb is eternal light.

Jer. 17:10 - the Lord searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds - Rev. 2:23 - Jesus searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds.

Ezek. 1:26-28; Daniel 7:9 - God's glorious appearance - Rev. 1:13-16 - Jesus' glorious appearance.

Ezek. 34:11-31 - God the Father is the shepherd of the flock - John 10:7-29 - Jesus is the shepherd of the flock.

Ezek. 34:16 - God seeks to save that which was lost - Luke 19:10 - Jesus seeks to save that which was lost.

Ezek. 34:17 - God judges between cattles, rams and goats - Matt. 25:32 - Jesus judges and separates the goats from the sheep.

Ezek. 43:2 - God's voice was like a noise of many waters - Rev. 1:15 - Jesus' voice was like the sound of many waters.

Dan. 2:47 - the Lord is the God of gods and the Lord of Lords - Rev. 17:14 - Jesus the Lamb is the Lord of Lords.

II. Jesus Christ's Witnesses Claim that Jesus is God

John 1:1 - John writes, "the Word was God." This is clear evidence of Jesus Christ's divinity. (Note: in the Jehovah's bible, the passage was changed to "Word was a god." This violates the first commandment and Isaiah 43:10 because it acknowledges that there is more than one God).

John 1:2-3 - He (the Word) was in the beginning with God and all things were made through Him (the Word who was God).

John 1:14 - the Word (who is God) became flesh (Jesus) and dwelled among us, full of grace and truth.

John 1:18 - the Greek word for "only-begotten" is "monogenes" which means unique, only member of a kind. It does not mean created.

John 1:51 - the angels of God - Matt. 13:41 - Son of Man's angels; 2 Thess. 1:7 - Jesus revealed from heaven with His angels.

John 3:5 - Jesus says without baptism one cannot enter into the Kingdom of God - Col. 1:13 - Paul says this is Jesus' Kingdom.

John 6:68-69 - Peter confesses that Jesus is the Son of God who has the words of eternal life.

Acts 2:36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ - Acts 4:24 - Sovereign Lord who made heaven and earth. This means Jesus is God.

Acts 3:15 - Peter said the men of Israel "killed the Author of Life." This can only be God - Acts 14:15 - who made all things.

Acts 20:28 - to care for the Church of God which He obtained with His own blood. This means God shed His blood. When? When He died on the cross. This means Jesus is God.

Rom. 1:1 - Paul is an apostle of the Gospel of God - Rom. 15:19 - Paul preached the Gospel of Christ.

Rom. 7:22 - Paul says he delights in the law of God - Gal. 6:2 - Paul says fulfill the law of Christ.

Rom. 8:9 - Paul refers to both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.

Rom. 9:5 - Jesus Christ is God over all, blessed forever.

Rom. 11:36 - God for from Him through Him and to Him are all things - Heb. 2:10 - Jesus for whom and by whom are all things.

1 Cor. 15:9 - Paul says he persecuted the Church of God - Matt. 16:18; Rom. 16:16 - it is the Church of Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 15:28 - God may be all in all - Colossians 3:11 - Christ is all and in all.

Gal. 1:5 - God the Father to whom be the glory forever - 2 Peter 3:18 - to Jesus Christ be the glory both now and forever.

Phil. 2:6-7 - Jesus was in the form of God, but instead of asserting His equality with God, emptied Himself for us.

Col. 1:15 - Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the "firstborn" of all creation. The Greek word for "first-born" is "prototokos" which means eternal preexistence (it never means created).

Col. 1:26 - God's saints - 1 Thess. 3:13 - at the coming of Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Col. 2:9 - in Jesus Christ the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. He is the whole and entire fullness of the indivisible God in the flesh.

Titus 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of God - Rom. 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of Jesus Christ.

Titus 1:3-4 - God our Savior = Christ our Savior = Jesus Christ is God.

Titus 2:11 - the grace of God that has appeared to save all men - Acts 15:11 - through the grace of Jesus we have salvation.

Titus 2:13 - we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 3:4 - 3:6 - great God and Savior Jesus Christ = God our Savior = Jesus Christ our Savior = Jesus is God.

Heb. 1:6 - when God brings His first-born into the world, let all the angels of God worship Him. Only God is worshiped.

Heb. 1:8 - God calls the Son "God." But of the Son He says, "Thy Throne Oh God is forever and ever."

Heb. 1:9 - God calls the Son "God." "Therefore, God, Thy God has anointed Thee."

Heb. 1:10 - God calls the Son "Lord." "And thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning and the heavens are your work."

Heb. 13:12 - Paul says Jesus sanctifies the people with His blood - 1 Thess. 5:23 - the God of peace sanctifies the people.

2 Peter 1:1 - to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:20 - "that we may know Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."

Jude 4 - Jude calls Jesus Christ our only Master and Lord. Our only Master and Lord is God Himself.

Rev. 2:8 - the angel of the church in Smyrna wrote, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." See Isa. 44:6.

Rev. 22:6 - the Lord God sends angels - Rev. 22:16 - Jesus sends angels.

III. Jesus Christ Claims to be God

Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself.

Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God when He declares, "You heard it said...but I say to you.."

Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 6:46 - not everyone who says to Jesus, "Lord, Lord." Jesus calls Himself Lord, which is God.

Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins.

Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath." He is the Lord of God's law which means He is God.

Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.

Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself "Lord." "The Lord has need of them."

Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 - Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of God.

Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.

Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God "Abba," Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God.

Luke 8:39 - Luke reports that Jesus said "tell how much God has done for you." And the man declared how much Jesus did.

Luke 17:18 - Jesus asks why the other nine lepers did not come back to give praise to Him, God, except the Samaritan leper.

Luke 19:38,40 - Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. If these were silent, the very stones would cry out.

John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. This Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God. This is why Jesus was crucified.

John 5:21-22 - Jesus gives life and says that all judgment has been given to Him by the Father.

John 5:23 - Jesus equates Himself with the Father, "whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."

John 6:38 - Jesus says, "For I have come down from heaven."

John 8:12 - Jesus says "I am the light of the world." - 1 John 1:5 - God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.

John 8:19 - Jesus says, "if you knew me, you would know my Father also."

John 8:23 - Jesus says that He is not of this world. Only God is not of this world.

John 8:58 - Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Exodus 3:14 - "I AM" means "Yahweh," which means God.

John 10:18 - Jesus says He has the power to lay down His life and take it up again - Gal. 1:1 - God raised Jesus to life.

John 10:30 - Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." They are equal. The Jews even claimed Jesus made Himself equal to God. Jesus' statement in John 14:28, "the Father is greater than I," cannot contradict John 10:30 (the Word of God is never in conflict). Jesus' statement in John 14:28 simply refers to His human messianic role as servant and slave, which He, and not the Father or the Holy Spirit, undertook in the flesh.

John 10:36 - again, Jesus claims that He is "the Son of God."

John 10:38; 14:10 - "the Father is in me and I am in the Father" means the Father and Son are equal.

John 12:45 - Jesus says, "He who sees Me sees Him who sent Me." God the Father is equal to God the Son.

John 13:13 - Jesus says, "You call me Teacher and Lord and you are right for so I AM."

John 14:6 - Jesus says "I am the way, and the truth and the life." Only God is the way, the truth and the life.

John 16:15 - Jesus says, "all things that the Father has are Mine." Jesus has everything God has which makes Him God.

John 16:28 - Jesus says that "He came from the Father and has come into the world."

John 17:5,24 - Jesus' desire is for us to behold His glory which He had before the foundation of the world.

John 20:17 - Jesus distinguishes His relationship to the Father from our relationship by saying "My Father and your Father."

Rev. 1:8 - God says He is the "Alpha and the Omega." In Rev. 22:13, Jesus also says He is the "Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end." The only possible conclusion one can reach is that Jesus is equal to the Lord God.

Rev. 1:17 - Jesus says again, "I am the First and the Last." This is in reference to the God prophesied by Isaiah in Isaiah 44:6, 41:4, 48:12.

Rev. 1:18 - Jesus, the First and the Last, also says "I died, and behold, I am alive for evermore." When did God ever die? He only did in the humanity of Jesus Christ our Lord and God.

Rev. 2:8 - Jesus again says, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." When did God die and come to life? In our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

[to be continued with Parts IV and V]

KennySe · Dec 2, 2003

(continuation of post 35)

IV. Jesus' Miracles Testify that He is God

Matt. 1:23; Mark 1:27,35 - Jesus was conceived in the virginal womb of the Blessed Mother.

Matt. 3:16-17; Mark 1:10-11; John 1:32 - God's Spirit descends upon Jesus and the Father declares Jesus to be His Son.

Matt. 4:23-24; 9:35;15:30; Mark 1:34; 3:10; 6:5; Luke 4:40; 7:10; 13:13; 14:4; John 4:52 - Jesus miraculously cures illness and disease.

Matt. 7:35 - Jesus cures a deaf person with a speech impediment.

Matt. 8:3; Mark 1:41; Luke 5:13; 17:14 - Jesus cures leprosy.

Matt. 9:21-22; Mark 5:27-34; Luke 8:44 - the hem of Jesus' cloak cures the woman with the hemorrhage. See also Matt. 14:36.

Matt. 8:13; 9:7; Mark 2:9; Luke 5:25 - Jesus cures those who are paralyzed.

Matt. 8:15; Mark 1:31; Luke 4:39 - Jesus cures Peter's mother-in-law's fever.

Matt. 8:26; Mark 4:39; Luke 8:24 - Jesus calms the storm. Even the wind and sea obey Him.

Matt. 8:32; 9:33; 12:22; 15:28; 17:18; Mark 1:26,34; 3:11; 5:13; 7:30; 9:26; Luke 4:35,41; 8:33; 9:42; 11:14 - Jesus has power over demons.

Matt. 9:4; 12:25; Luke 6:8; 11:17 - Jesus knows people's thoughts.

Matt. 9:25; Mark 5:24; John 11:44 - Jesus raises people from the dead.

Matt. 9:30; 12:22; 20:34; 21:14; Mark 8:25; 10:52; Luke 7:21; 18:42; John 9:11 - Jesus cures the blind.

Matt. 12:13; Mark 3:5; Luke 6:10 - Jesus cures the man with the withered hand.

Matt. 14:19-20; 5:36-37; Mark 6:41-42; 8:7-8; Luke 9:16-17; John 6:11 - Jesus multiplies the loaves and fish and feeds the crowd of thousands.

Matt. 14:26; Mark 6:48; John 6:19 - Jesus walks on water.

Matt. 15:21; 16:21; 17:9,22; 20:18-19; 26:2; Mark 10:33-34; Luke 9:44; 17:25; 18:32-34 - Jesus predicts His passion.

Matt. 17:2; Mark 9:2; Luke 9:29 - Jesus is transfigured in glory.

Matt. 17:27 - Jesus miraculously has a shekel appear in the mouth of a fish.

Matt. 21:2-3; Mark 11:2; Luke 19:30 - Jesus predicts that a colt would be available for Him.

Matt. 21:19; Mark 11:14,20 - Jesus curses the fig tree and it withers.

Matt. 24:34; Mark 13:2; Luke 21:32 - Jesus predicts the fall of Jerusalem which occurred in 70 A.D.

Matt. 26:21-25; Mark 14:18-20; Luke 22:21; John 13:21,26 - Jesus predicts Judas' betrayal.

Matt. 26:26-28; Mk. 14:22,24; Lk 22;19-20; 1 Cor. 11:24-25 - Jesus changes bread and wine into His body and blood.

Matt. 26:34; Mark 14:30; Luke 22:34; John 13:38 - Jesus predicts Peter's denial.

Matt. 27:51-54; Mark 15:38-39 - supernatural events occur at Jesus' death.

Matt. 28:9; Mark 16:9,12,14; Luke 7:14-15; 8:54-55; 24:5,31,36; John 20:14,19,26; 21:1-14 - Jesus rises from the dead.

Mark 14:13; Luke 22:10 - Jesus predicts that a man carrying a jug of water will show them the furnished room for the Passover.

Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51 - Jesus ascends into heaven.

Luke 2:13-14 - the angels praise Jesus' birth.

Luke 5:7; John 21:6 - Jesus directs the miraculous catch of fish.

Luke 24:31 - Jesus has the ability to vanish out of sight.

John 2:9 - Jesus changes water into wine.

John 13:36; 21:18 - Jesus predicts Peter's death. Peter was martyred in Rome around 67 A.D.

John 20:19,26 - Jesus has the ability to appear even when the doors are locked.

V. Jesus Christ is Worshiped

Rev. 4:9-11; 5:8,12-14; 7:11-12 - both Jesus and the Father are worshiped. The Greek word for worship is "proskuneo" which always means the worship of God.

Matt. 2:2,11 - the magi who came to see the newborn Jesus came to worship Him.

Matt. 8:2 - a leper came to Jesus and worshiped Him without rebuke.

Matt. 14:33 - the apostles who were in the boat worshiped Jesus without rebuke.

Matt. 28:9 - Jesus' disciples took His feet and worshiped Him without rebuke.

Matt. 28:17 - Jesus' disciples saw Him and then worshiped Him.

Mark 5:6 - the man with the unclean spirit ran to Jesus and worshiped Him.

Luke 1:11 - Mary accepts Elizabeth's declaration "the Mother of my Lord" = the Mother of my God.

Luke 24:52 - as Jesus ascended into heaven, the apostles worshiped Him.

John 9:38 - the blind man who was cured by Jesus worshiped Him.

John 20:28 - Jesus accepts Thomas' statement "My Lord and my God!" Literally, "the Lord of me and the God of me!" (in Greek, "Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou")

KennySe · Dec 2, 2003

And now the Holy Spirit

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_holy_spirit.html

I. The Holy Spirit is God

Job 33:4 - "The Spirit of God made me and the breath of the Almighty has given me life." Only God is the creator of life.

Matt. 12:31; Luke 12:10 - Jesus says blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Only God can be blasphemed.

John 4:24 - God is a spirit (the Holy Spirit) and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. Only God is worshiped.

John 14:16,26; 15:26; 16:7 - the Father and the Son send the Counselor, the Holy Spirit - Isaiah 9:6 - the Counselor is Mighty God.

Acts 5:3-4,9 - Peter tells Ananias that he lied to the Holy Spirit, and that he has not lied to men, but to God (the Holy Spirit).

Acts 28:25-27 - the Holy Spirit said "Go to this people and say..." - Isaiah 6:8-10 - the Lord said "Go to this people and say..."

Rom. 8:11 - the Spirit that raised Jesus up from the dead - Gal. 1:1 - God the Father raised Jesus from the dead.

1 Cor. 2:10 - the Spirit searches everything - Jer. 17:10 - the Lord searches the heart.

1 Cor. 3:16 -you are the temple of God - 1 Cor. 6:19 - you are the temple of the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor. 12:4-6 - there are varieties of gifts but the same Spirit, varieties of service but the same Lord, varieties of working but same God.

2 Cor. 3:6,17 - we are ministers of the covenant in the Spirit which gives life. Now the Lord (God) is the Spirit.

Heb. 10:16 - the Holy Spirit said this is the covenant I will make - Jer. 31:33 - the Lord said this is the covenant I will make.

1 Peter 1:2 - we are sanctified by the Holy Spirit - 1 Thess. 5:23 - the very God of peace sanctifies you wholly.

II. The Holy Spirit is a Person

Luke 12:12 - the Holy Spirit will teach you in that hour what you ought to say. He (the Holy Spirit) teaches the faithful.

John 14:17 - the world neither sees Him or knows Him ("Him" is referring to the Holy Spirit). You know Him for He dwells with you.

John 14:26 - the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all I have said to you.

John 15:26 - the Spirit, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness to me. He = the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a person, not a thing.

John 16:7 - if I do not go, the Counselor will not come to you. But if I go, I (Jesus) will send Him to you. This is also proof of the filioque (that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son).

John 16: 8 - when He (the Holy Spirit) comes, He will convince the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment.

John 16:13-14 - when the Spirit of truth comes He will guide you into all truth. He will speak, He will declare and He will glorify.

Acts 8:29; 10:19-20; 11:12;13:2; Rev. 22:17 - the Holy Spirit speaks to us like a human person.

Acts 15:25,28 - it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us. The Holy Spirit, as a divine person, thinks and makes judgments.

Rom. 8:26 - the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words. It is the Spirit Himself, not itself.

Rom. 8:16 - it is the Spirit Himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God. The Spirit is a person.

Rom. 15:30 - I appeal to you by the Lord Jesus and the love of the Spirit. Only persons, rational beings, can love.

1 Cor. 12:11 - the Holy Spirit apportions His gifts to each one individually as He wills. He is the third person of the Godhead.

2 Cor. 13:14 - the Holy Spirit can have fellowship with the faithful like a human person.

Eph. 4:30 - the Holy Spirit can be grieved, just as human persons can be grieved

NOW BE BRAVE AND READ THOSE PASSAGES IN YOUR BIBLE.
Or be a coward and dismiss them.

Serapha · Dec 2, 2003

KennySe said:
And now the Holy Spirit

NOW BE BRAVE AND READ THOSE PASSAGES IN YOUR BIBLE.
Or be a coward and dismiss them.

Hi there!

You were doing just a great job, until you resorted to name-calling... then you lost your witness. "I" would be offended at being called a "coward". In fact, everyone on this forum would be offended at being labeled as such.

~malaka~

KennySe · Dec 2, 2003

Hello, Malaka.

I agree that my ending was harsh. It was meant to be harsh, like a glass of water to the face. Re-read the OP and see the spirit in which it was written.

Be informed that I have not called anyone a coward.
Just as I have not called anyone brave, either.

Peace be with you,
Kenny

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Explain Trinity

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Legend

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Legend

A New Creature

Jesus is Lord

Habemus Papam!

Habemus Papam!

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Habemus Papam!

Habemus Papam!

Habemus Papam!

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Habemus Papam!

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