Explain the Moral Difference here...

[DarwinsApe]

CC,

Let me expand a bit on my claim that God doesn't do miracles for these kids:

When a baby is born, there is an opening in the heart known as the Patent Ducuts Aorta. Basically, it is designed to help blood move from chamber to the other. It closes a few days after birth, in most cases.

In kids like my daughter, that closure is fatal, unless they have surgery, becuase htey have no other way to get oxygenated blood to the lungs.

When I say that God doesn't work miracles for these kids, I mean this: Withour medication to keep it open, that PDA is goign to close, and the child is going to die. That's not a matter of faith. It's a matter of fact, rooted in the physiology of the body.

So, if God had compassion for the prayers of the parents of these children - if he were willing to work miracles for them - shouldn't they be sparedthe pain of open-heart surgery (my daughter has had three)? Shouldn't the PDA simply remain open by God's grace?

I've spent many nights in the Pedatric Intensive Care Units - and experienced the suffering of too many parents and children - to believe that God is very interested in intervening to right the situation.

 

[Harlan Norris]

What were the other options? If one was surgery to repair the problem, that would be my choice.

 

[DarwinsApe]

A series of surgeries was the other option (It's the one we went with.)

The first one was done when she was three days old.

The second, at nine months, was the one that nearly killed her.

She had her third surgery - the major "fix - two years ago.

 

[BarbB]

A series of surgeries was the other option (It's the one we went with.)

The first one was done when she was three days old.

The second, at nine months, was the one that nearly killed her.

She had her third surgery - the major "fix - two years ago.

DarwinsApe - I know that these surgeries are hard on you and her. I just thank God that there is a solution to the defect.

 

[Bushido216]

I'm shocked that you all are having trouble understanding Darwin's Ape here.

Three Options:

1. Abortion - Through direct action the child dies, no matter what.
2. Compassionate Care - Through inaction the child dies, no matter what.
3. Surgery - The child may live.

How are option 1 & 2 morally different? You have the capacity to save the child but you do nothing. Imagine the Good Samaritan had kept on walking. Whomsoever doesn't see the difference is deluding themselves.

 

[Blessed2003]

Let me expand a bit on my claim that God doesn't do miracles for these kids:

When a baby is born, there is an opening in the heart known as the Patent Ducuts Aorta. Basically, it is designed to help blood move from chamber to the other. It closes a few days after birth, in most cases.

In kids like my daughter, that closure is fatal, unless they have surgery, becuase htey have no other way to get oxygenated blood to the lungs.

When I say that God doesn't work miracles for these kids, I mean this: Withour medication to keep it open, that PDA is goign to close, and the child is going to die. That's not a matter of faith. It's a matter of fact, rooted in the physiology of the body.

So, if God had compassion for the prayers of the parents of these children - if he were willing to work miracles for them - shouldn't they be sparedthe pain of open-heart surgery (my daughter has had three)? Shouldn't the PDA simply remain open by God's grace?

I've spent many nights in the Pedatric Intensive Care Units - and experienced the suffering of too many parents and children - to believe that God is very interested in intervening to right the situation.

edit* okay, OP, in short, yes to me, the two issues are morally different.

I snipped everything I had written because it was irrelevant to your op.

B~

 

[DarwinsApe]

Can someone give me an example of a treatment that is so horrible that you would rather have your child die?

Sorry, but...I think that being wheeled into an operating room, having your heart stopped, being hooked up to a macine to pump your blood and keep you breathing, having a doctor saw through you chest and open up your heart is pretty dramatic and horrible....

But I'd still prefer it to death - for myself and my child.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

CC,

Let me expand a bit on my claim that God doesn't do miracles for these kids:

When a baby is born, there is an opening in the heart known as the Patent Ducuts Aorta. Basically, it is designed to help blood move from chamber to the other. It closes a few days after birth, in most cases.

In kids like my daughter, that closure is fatal, unless they have surgery, becuase htey have no other way to get oxygenated blood to the lungs.

When I say that God doesn't work miracles for these kids, I mean this: Withour medication to keep it open, that PDA is goign to close, and the child is going to die. That's not a matter of faith. It's a matter of fact, rooted in the physiology of the body.

Perhaps it would be better if I explained my position on that:
I see the knowledge given to man to remedy this problem as a blessing from God. That being said, the ability to have the surgery would be a blessing from God, not necessarily a miracle by traditional definition, but from God none-the-less.
In addition, my brother had the same condition (or one very similar due to the fact that I don't recall the technical term ATM). He lived up to 2-years-old until an incident where he drowned in our swimming pool. He was revived and the doctors found the problem with his heart while he was in the hospital and had the consequent open heart surgery to fix the problem. I see not only the drowning, but the fact that he lived until 2 and the finding the problem as miracles - some would chalk it up to chance or luck.

So, if God had compassion for the prayers of the parents of these children - if he were willing to work miracles for them - shouldn't they be sparedthe pain of open-heart surgery (my daughter has had three)? Shouldn't the PDA simply remain open by God's grace?

I've spent many nights in the Pedatric Intensive Care Units - and experienced the suffering of too many parents and children - to believe that God is very interested in intervening to right the situation.

I think you already have your answer. Yes, we typically do not enjoy being tested by difficult situations and would prefer the perfect life, but the fact that you continue to try and help your daughter live makes a statement that you see that she is worth the effort.

 

[Blessed2003]

Can someone give me an example of a treatment that is so horrible that you would rather have your child die?

Sorry, but...I think that being wheeled into an operating room, having your heart stopped, being hooked up to a macine to pump your blood and keep you breathing, having a doctor saw through you chest and open up your heart is pretty dramatic and horrible....

But I'd still prefer it to death - for myself and my child.

No.

I think I foolishly answered before I snipped, not having been in the position it's nearly impossible for me to even speculate, my goodness, my child is the most important person to me in this world, and I'd do anything in order to help him.

I am sorry that there are even issues like this in life, it's absolutley heartbreaking.

 

[DarwinsApe]

CC,

I am sorry that you lost your brother.

For kids like my daughter, there is a layering of problems. I guess the real question is why God doesn't step in and fix her right ventricle, so that it pumps her blood properly. Many people have asked him to. She has asked him to. But he hasn't. Why not?

You seem to suggest that he is doing this to perfect or sharpen me in some way. I can't accept that. I can't accept that a God worth worshipping would withhold his healing power from a six-year-old child who had done nothing wrong, simply as a way to reach or punish her parents.

 

[Blessed2003]

CC,

I am sorry that you lost your brother.

For kids like my daughter, there is a layering of problems. I guess the real question is why God doesn't step in and fix her right ventricle, so that it pumps her blood properly. Many people have asked him to. She has asked him to. But he hasn't. Why not?

You seem to suggest that he is doing this to perfect or sharpen me in some way. I can't accept that. I can't accept that a God worth worshipping would withhold his healing power from a six-year-old child who had done nothing wrong, simply as a way to reach or punish her parents.

Well, certainly this is logical reasoning, since our conception of any kind of worthy God would be that He would automatically and immediately not allow, or at very least answer if we ask for such things. To that, what should one say, oh sure, it's easy to sit here on this side of the issue and say that God is only sharpening your character, because it's not my child! I am not incinuating that about anyone specific, i'm projecting okay, so please don't be offended. Anyway, I wish I could type out something that we could all read and go, oh, so that's it, but we all know that isn't going to happen. We don't understand things like this, which implies to me, and again it's pure speculation and I acknowledge if it was my child I'd probbly feel differently, but it implies that this universe operates on completely different laws and that it is much bigger then my itty bitty brain can comprehend. I would have everything in pretty purple and blue colors, but there would be someone else who would have it all in black and white, so we can't say this or that would be right, atleast that is how I see it anyway. We aren't any God's so who are we? Please don't misunderstand me, I am not heartless, if I was God I would want to answer your prayer, but obviously miracles that transcend laws such as this are rare, if at all. To me the real miracle is in the technology of the Dr's being able to perform such surgeries and even give this precious child the chance of fixing something that was for some unknown reason not functioning properly in the fraile human body.

Thanks,
B~

 

[ChristianCenturion]

CC,

I am sorry that you lost your brother.

Perhaps I didn't explain well. He was revived, had the surgery, and is living to this day - though I tease him every now and then that the drowning did cause some brain damage.

For kids like my daughter, there is a layering of problems. I guess the real question is why God doesn't step in and fix her right ventricle, so that it pumps her blood properly. Many people have asked him to. She has asked him to. But he hasn't. Why not?

I have tried to convey that I see the surgery as an answer to that type of prayer. It could also be the miraculous way as well, but not all answers to prayer are exactly how we would prefer it. Many times the answer is YES (His way), NO (His reasons), WAIT (it will be answered, but in His timing). I'm simply trying to share how I see it in faith, not having faith would tend to make that perspective seem as nonsense - so be it.

You seem to suggest that he is doing this to perfect or sharpen me in some way. I can't accept that. I can't accept that a God worth worshipping would withhold his healing power from a six-year-old child who had done nothing wrong, simply as a way to reach or punish her parents.

I'm sure that my son also holds some resentment and doesn't understand when I likewise have him struggle in things I deem that he should learn - to overcome or spur maturity. Please don't feel insulted with a comparison to a child, that is simply the usual Christian parallel I can draw upon and we are talking about God being the Father, not you being inferior to a person.

 

[DarwinsApe]

If God wants to test me, CC..that's fine. There are a million other ways to do it.

But why use an innocent child? Why inflict pain on her, just so I can learn a lesson?

 

[levi501]

no God gets credit when everything goes well not when it goes bad... ergo, God didn't put your child in that situation, but he certainly healed her. Now if hadn't have worked out it wouldn't have been his fault, so he shouldn't be blamed.

 

[Seeking...]

Can someone give me an example of a treatment that is so horrible that you would rather have your child die?

Sorry, but...I think that being wheeled into an operating room, having your heart stopped, being hooked up to a macine to pump your blood and keep you breathing, having a doctor saw through you chest and open up your heart is pretty dramatic and horrible....

But I'd still prefer it to death - for myself and my child.

Yes, understand that my experience is quite different.

My best friend in childhood was born with cancer. He endured 9 years of treatments and surgeries with no remission ever lasting longer than a couple of months. The cancer spread, he was blind, he was in constant pain and he couldn't even play a good deal of the time. He tried his best to be "normal" to not complain and to make others smile. Do you know he had to beg to finally be allowed to die? He was tired and asked to be finally taken home. Most parents will keep pushing even if there is a 1% chance because they can't see the possiblity of letting their kid go... After seeing his childhood - I couldn't do it.

Death is simply not the worst thing in the world to me...

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Yes, understand that my experience is quite different.

My best friend in childhood was born with cancer. He endured 9 years of treatments and surgeries with no remission ever lasting longer than a couple of months. The cancer spread, he was blind, he was in constant pain and he couldn't even play a good deal of the time. He tried his best to be "normal" to not complain and to make others smile. Do you know he had to beg to finally be allowed to die? He was tired and asked to be finally taken home. Most parents will keep pushing even if there is a 1% chance because they can't see the possiblity of letting their kid go... After seeing his childhood - I couldn't do it.

Death is simply not the worst thing in the world to me...

That is a sad account. However, may I be so bold as to emphasize the important part of your post though?

"My best friend in childhood..."
I would consider your friend's life was worth something... at least according to your words, to you.
Though your sadness over what was endured is not a bad thing.

BTW - My condolences the loss of your friend.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

If God wants to test me, CC..that's fine. There are a million other ways to do it.

But why use an innocent child? Why inflict pain on her, just so I can learn a lesson?

That answer I can't provide you. I could speculate and mention people in my life that serve as inspiration to me and others, people that have gone successfully through hard times and were there to comfort me in my time of difficulty, etc. But to give you the specific answer for your situation, I can't do and you will have to ask Him that yourself.

Sorry.

 

[Seeking...]

That is a sad account. However, may I be so bold as to emphasize the important part of your post though?

"My best friend in childhood..."
I would consider your friend's life was worth something... at least according to your words, to you.
Though your sadness over what was endured is not a bad thing.

BTW - My condolences the loss of your friend.

Of course his life meant a great deal to me and to all those around him.

One of the lessons I learned though is that my needs, in regards to other people, are not important. See, I was angry, furious when he died that he had left me - that he still didn't keep fighting. It took me years to mature and some volunteering and some research into his form of cancer to understand exactly what he had endured and why I and no one else had a right to expect him to. The majority of his life he spent living for others it seems and I just would not put my child in a position to have to do that. I'm not trying to offend any parents out there - I just know how much Trevor didn't tell his mom and other adults so that they would feel good when he was just an exhausted little boy who didn't want to hurt anymore.