Explain the Fall

[Mystman]

---note: this thing became way too long. Oh well, a lot of it is blank space though, reading it shouldn't take that much time -

This is basically a continuation of some of the other threads here, but I certainly think it's worthy of it's own thread.

In short, many Christians claim that all "deficiencies" in human design are due to the Fall. Also, many Christians claim that all "bad" organisms were only designed/altered after the Fall. (as in, before the Fall, T-rex ate grapefruits, after the fall, T-rex ate his dino-buddies.) As a third point, many Christians believe that things like Cancer are only possible "because of" the Fall.

Now, my question is going to be: why?

Because honestly, at the moment, the "because of the Fall!" awnser doesn't really tell me anything.

In your awnser, there is probably going to be some mention of God's "plan" for mankind. (or at least, I think such a mention is necesarry in order to create a good awnser..).

---from this line, you get an example. As in, don't go and respond with "I don't believe X what you stated in your example!"---

After all,

Pete's Awnser: "God allowed cancer to get into the world because He loves us so much and wants us to be happy"

is a bit of a crappy awnser.

Also, not being able to make a "fitting" theory, should give you some food for thought. As in, you really want to give Pete's Awnser, but notice yourself that it's a bit crappy, and then just respond with "I dont know why god did it". But at that point, you lose one of the advantages of the Literal Biblical Worldview. After all, in the battle between YEC and science, one of the reasons for choosing for YEC is that science still has holes. So the choice is between

YEC worldview: No evidence, but it "fits", and has no holes in it.
Science worldview: Mountains of evidence, but it has some holes.

At this point, choosing YEC might be "wise". However, if YEC is shown to have holes in it (because you can't truly explain both the Fall and an all loving God at the same time), the situation becomes.

YEC worldview: No evidence, and some pretty fundemental holes.
Science worldview: Mountains of evidence, and still some holes.

The choice then becomes much clearer.

---end example---

So yeah, in short:

1. Why exactly should the Fall cause diseases/carnivores/etc? What exactly IS the Fall?
2. How does this reconcile with God's plan for the world; how does it reflect on God's personality?
3. Is God's personality as predicted by the Fall the same one as the personality that He's often claimed to have? (all knowing, all loving, etc)

Oh, and just for a certain poster: If you're going to say that there aren't any Christians who claim that all deficiencies are due to the Fall, PLEASE DON'T.

 

[Mystman]

(btw, do you guys think it would be allowed to also post this in GA? You know, just so it gets some more exposure )

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

The "Fall" is a myth created by primative peoples in an attempt to understand how they could be "God's Chosen People" and still suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. It has nothing to do with anything that is actually found in nature.

There was a young fellow name Hall
Who fell in a spring in the fall
T'would have been a sad thing
If he died in the spring
But he didn't
He died in the fall.

F.B.

 

[z3ro]

I would also like to point out that no where in genesis does it say that death and decay were caused by the fall. Oh, sure, it says it in later NT chapters, but why would god withhold that information from his chosen people, the Jews?

 

[awstar]

So yeah, in short:

1. Why exactly should the Fall cause diseases/carnivores/etc? What exactly IS the Fall?
2. How does this reconcile with God's plan for the world; how does it reflect on God's personality?
3. Is God's personality as predicted by the Fall the same one as the personality that He's often claimed to have? (all knowing, all loving, etc)

1. "the fall" is a curse God placed on His creation (Rev 22:3)

2. God's plan -- remove the curse for whosoever believes He has done so. (John 3:14-16)

3. God's personality was revealed to Moses (author of Genesis) as he wrote in Exodus 34:6-7 It is the same before the fall, after the fall, and for all eternity.

 

[Mystman]

1. "the fall" is a curse God placed on His creation (Rev 22:3)

2. God's plan -- remove the curse for whosoever believes He has done so. (John 3:14-16)

3. God's personality was revealed to Moses (author of Genesis) as he wrote in Exodus 34:6-7 It is the same before the fall, after the fall, and for all eternity.

"God's plan -- remove the curse for whosoever believes He has done so." English isn't my first language so maybe I'm missing something, but I have no idea what this sentence means.

But anyway, why did God place a curse on His creation? Note: if you're going to awnser with "because man fell into sin", or something to that effect, please explain why God curses the entirety of creation because Eve at an apple.

Blaming "the Fall" for diseases (you haven't stated that explicitly, but I'll assume it for the moment), means that 5 year old girls die from cancer because Eve at an apple. After all, if Eve hadn't eaten the apple, God wouldn't have cursed the Creation, diseases wouldn't have entered the world, and the girl wouldn't have died.

I'm having trouble seeing the logic in that.

 

[nvxplorer]

I would also like to point out that no where in genesis does it say that death and decay were caused by the fall. Oh, sure, it says it in later NT chapters, but why would god withhold that information from his chosen people, the Jews?

Yes, this is a problem for Christianity. Judaism has no doctrine of original sin, doesn’t believe in salvation by grace, doesn’t see Satan as the source of all evil, and doesn’t hold numerous other beliefs of Christianity. I guess Jews would say that God hasn’t withheld anything from them.

 

[awstar]

Blaming "the Fall" for diseases (you haven't stated that explicitly, but I'll assume it for the moment), means that 5 year old girls die from cancer because Eve at an apple. Aafter all, if Eve hadn't eaten the apple, God wouldn't have cursed the Creation, diseases wouldn't have entered the world, and the girl wouldn't have died.

I'm having trouble seeing the logic in that.

Does it make a difference whether a 5 year old girl dies of cancer or a 95 year old man dies oof old age since God said "you will surely die" and up to this point in time -- 6,000 years latter and billions of Adam and Eve's offspring -- God kept His word.

 

[Edx]

Does it make a difference whether a 5 year old girl dies of cancer or a 95 year old man dies oof old age since God said "you will surely die" and up to this point in time -- 6,000 years latter and billions of Adam and Eve's offspring -- God kept His word.

If someone says you are going to die if you do something, you dont expect that to mean dying of old age 900 years later.

Ed

 

[Mystman]

Does it make a difference whether a 5 year old girl dies of cancer or a 95 year old man dies oof old age since God said "you will surely die" and up to this point in time -- 6,000 years latter and billions of Adam and Eve's offspring -- God kept His word.

Situation 1:
My 95 year old grandpa dies in his sleep.

Situation 2:

my 5 year old daughter gets cancer, suffers horrible pain, and eventually dies.

--

If you honestly think that situation 1 is "just as bad" as situation 2, your emotional system is so alien to me that you might as well leave the discussion. If that's not what you meant, please elaborate.

 

[awstar]

Situation 1:
My 95 year old grandpa dies in his sleep.

Situation 2:

my 5 year old daughter gets cancer, suffers horrible pain, and eventually dies.

Situation 1: Person lives long life but has rejected God and dies.

Situation 2: Person lives short life but hasn't rejected God.

Which is worse?

 

[Mystman]

Situation 1: Person lives long life but has rejected God and dies.

Situation 2: Person lives short life but hasn't rejected God.

Which is worse?

Notice the little atheist icon under my name. My care-factor if someone "rejects" god is exactly zero.

So yeah, situation 2 is worse.

 

[awstar]

Notice the little atheist icon under my name. My care-factor if someone "rejects" god is exactly zero.

So yeah, situation 2 is worse.

Worse from your perspective but not worse for person in situation 2 from God's perspective. Whose perspective really matters?

 

[Mystman]

Worse from your perspective but not worse for person in situation 2 from God's perspective. Whose perspective really matters?

No idea.

How was this relevant to the OP?

edit: (btw, me = going away for some hours, so if I don't reply you'll know why)

 

[Edx]

Worse from your perspective but not worse for person in situation 2 from God's perspective. Whose perspective really matters?

A loving god wouldnt care if you dont believe he exists, only if you were good person. Your god is apparently vengefull, wrathfull and jealous.

Ed

 

[Calminian]

In short, many Christians claim that all "deficiencies" in human design are due to the Fall. Also, many Christians claim that all "bad" organisms were only designed/altered after the Fall. (as in, before the Fall, T-rex ate grapefruits, after the fall, T-rex ate his dino-buddies.) As a third point, many Christians believe that things like Cancer are only possible "because of" the Fall.

Now, my question is going to be: why?

The fall gives us insight to God's holiness probably first and foremost. Isaiah probably said it best when he encountered God in a vision.

Is. 6:5 So I said: “Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, The LORD of hosts.”

Now Isaiah by our standards was a pretty good guy. But that’s because we only compare him to ourselves. Probably the biggest change a christian will undergo upon conversion is the realization of his sinfulness.

YEC worldview: No evidence, but it "fits", and has no holes in it.

There is a lot of evidence for the YEC world view. The problem is you are only looking for scientific evidence which is a logical fallacy. Science cannot verity nor falsify the miracles Genesis reveals. The corroborative testimonial evidence in the Bible is overwhelming to the one willing to look at it with an open mind. If you mind is set on methodological naturalism you’ll never be able to explore supernatural claims. It’s a philosophical issue you’re are stumbling on.

Science worldview: Mountains of evidence, but it has some holes.

Evidence which is only valid if the supernatural events spoken of in Genesis did not happen. Science can’t prove they didn’t happen, so it’s a matter of faith. The christian faith is built on the corroborative testimonial evidence of the bible written by 40 different authors spanning over 1600 plus years. Naturalism is based on pure blind faith. Science cannot prove it. It can only operate under the assumption of it.

At this point, choosing YEC might be "wise". However, if YEC is shown to have holes in it (because you can't truly explain both the Fall and an all loving God at the same time), the situation becomes.

YEC worldview: No evidence, and some pretty fundemental holes.
Science worldview: Mountains of evidence, and still some holes.

The choice then becomes much clearer.

Freedom (libertarian) pretty much solves the problem of evil argument which is basically what you’re arguing. God’s attribute of justice is as important as his attribute of love. He created man in his own image and gave man (Adam and all men essentially) a choice. He cannot be held responsible for our choices.

1. Why exactly should the Fall cause diseases/carnivores/etc? What exactly IS the Fall?

The curse of God caused death, which enables a new beginning. Man was separated from God after the fall. The only way back to God is through death and a willingness to be reunited with Him. It’s very logical.

2. How does this reconcile with God's plan for the world; how does it reflect on God's personality?

That He is holy, just, and loving. He suffered that we (including you) might be redeemed.

3. Is God's personality as predicted by the Fall the same one as the personality that He's often claimed to have? (all knowing, all loving, etc)

He has not changed.

Oh, and just for a certain poster: If you're going to say that there aren't any Christians who claim that all deficiencies are due to the Fall, PLEASE DON'T.

Regarding vegetarianism until the flood, I'll change it to vast majority. Hillary was a much better politician than I.

 

[Calminian]

A loving god wouldnt care if you dont believe he exists, only if you were good person. Your god is apparently vengefull, wrathfull and jealous.

Ed

Eccl. 7:20 Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.

Old Testament

 

[awstar]

No idea.

How was this relevant to the OP?

edit: (btw, me = going away for some hours, so if I don't reply you'll know why)

It's an answer to:

2. How does this reconcile with God's plan for the world; how does it reflect on God's personality?

It describes what God finds pleasing and who is included in His plan.

 

[awstar]

Eccl. 7:20 Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.

Old Testament

Exactly! God has a predicament. How does a God who is just and loving, pour his love on someone who is unjust?

 

[Calminian]

Situation 1: Person lives long life but has rejected God and dies.

Situation 2: Person lives short life but hasn't rejected God.

Which is worse?

Notice the little atheist icon under my name. My care-factor if someone "rejects" god is exactly zero.

So yeah, situation 2 is worse.

But you just switched the argument. If the God of the Bible is indeed real, situation one is worse. In your OP you were arguing that the biblical God's character, using a literal interpretation, is somehow flawed. Then you switched the argument to, "well the Bible's not true." Let's stay focused.