Explain the Fall

[Mystman]

The main point of this thread was that I've never met a single Christian that manages to give the full picture.

When posing a "difficult" question, Christians come up with some smart awnser.. but is that awnser actually compatible with the rest of Christian Theology?

Can a "Good" God who for some unexplained reason has to "die" on the cross to "forgive" mankind's sins (or something like that) mix with a God who cursed the entirety of mankind because Eve ate an apple? What is God's plan in the first place? How does His plan show in His creation?

stuff

Oh well. If somebody is willing to try to truly awnser the OP, go ahead. I'm not holding my breath.

Edit: I'm honestly willing to learn, but all I get as awnsers is "He is Just and Perfectly Good and it is perfectly logical!". Explain why. Trying to understand a totally alien way of thinking is a bit hard when people start with the conclusions (that He is Just etc). Begin at the beginning! Treat me like a 4 year old. I don't care. If you're going to give a explanation, do it detailed, don't skip any steps, repeat complicated points, etc.

 

[z3ro]

To me, it says, in plain english, this
'So God said, behold, now man knows both the good, and the evil, like us. Now, to keep them from eating again from the tree of life, which would give them eternal life, ....we must guard it.

No, actually it says nothing about man eating again. Point out the verse to me that says they ate from the tree; not what you are implying, show me where it says adam ate from the tree of life.

No, I don't think so. Fruit comes from a live tree, but is meant to be consumed, which completes it's purpose for existance! -Still leaving the tree alive and well, and better for the picking of the fruit. Besides, in heaven, I believe that it is not necassary to eat! We will, and can, but we won't have to.

Um, fruit is alive, until it is eaten. You have to kill it to eat it. Thus, death before the fall.

 

[Edx]

Eccl. 7:20 Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.

And?

 

[Edx]

Does fruit die in heaven? There's lots there. I don't know, from my present only experience that seems hard to swallow. But look at the trees in the garden. The tree was still alive, and the fruit was designed to be eaten.

Then why the need to "eat" at all? Bescides which, in order to eat bacteria/cells die.

Ed

 

[awstar]

Eve eats apple. -> billions of humans and other creatures die painfull deaths -> all perfectly logical.

right.

This thread was for explaining WHY it is perfectly logical. As in, begin with the basics (God's plan), then explain how the Fall fits into God's plan, and the explain how that fits with His personality.

You just said "God is just and it's very logical".

pff

Jesus, Son of God, dies on the cross shedding His blood for the forgiveness of sin, according to the scriptures, is raised from the dead on the third day, according to the scriptures, so that whomsoever believes in Him has eternal life.

Billions of people who died -- who would not have existed if it had not been for Eve -- have eternal life because they believe this good news. They understand the logic in this after they believe because the Spirit of God himself explains it to them. Faith comes first, blessed assurance is the gift of God that results from believing Him.


That may seem strange, but God isn't asking anyone to do anything more than He expected of Eve. Hear His word proclaimed by someone else and trust in it.

 

[Edx]

Jesus, Son of God, dies on the cross shedding His blood for the forgiveness of sin, according to the scriptures, is raised from the dead on the third day, according to the scriptures, so that whomsoever believes in Him has eternal life.

We still have "sin", so what did Jesus' death really do? Why did Jesus need to die before God will forgive? That doesnt make any sence, unless god needs things to die in order to forgive people. Oh wait, that is exactly what the Bible says.

 

[nvxplorer]

That may seem strange, but God isn't asking anyone to do anything more than He expected of Eve. Hear His word proclaimed by someone else and trust in it.

God’s word to Eve was proclaimed by someone else? Who might that be?

It seems that God is asking me to do much more that he asked of Eve. He spoke directly to Eve. He wants me to believe ancient writings.

 

[Calminian]

Eve eats apple. -> billions of humans and other creatures die painfull deaths -> all perfectly logical.

right.

This thread was for explaining WHY it is perfectly logical. As in, begin with the basics (God's plan), then explain how the Fall fits into God's plan, and the explain how that fits with His personality.

You just said "God is just and it's very logical".

pff

I did answer this in the post you responded to, but you refused to directly respond to it. Perhaps is sailed over your head but you're welcome to go back and ask questions about it. The fact that you didn't respond to each segment is telling. In it I explained God's plan and personality and goals for us. What part of my response did you not understand? I realized you probably didn't like the response but isn't it a bit disingenuous to say it wasn't answered? I've noticed several here that are answering you very diligently. Yet you say no one is answering. Could it be you are so emotionally devoted to naturalism that you can't hear?

Another concept you might be stumbling on is freewill. As an naturalist you don't (or at least shouldn't) believe in any kind of libertarian self determination. Yet men have a real choice in their eternal future. There is actually a sense in which all of us have to make a decision like Adam was faced with. Trust God or trust in ourselves. Just as the devil came to Adam in a pre-fallen world to persuade him to distrust God, so God comes to us in a fallen world to persuade us to trust Him. But it's our choice. The concept of choice is often very hard for naturalists to grasp.

If the responses you've heard don't answer your questions I suggest that you're not articulating them very well.

 

[dad]

Then why the need to "eat" at all? Bescides which, in order to eat bacteria/cells die.

Ed

I don't think we will need to eat. But we can. AS for bacteria there, I don't know, but it is so different, I would not be surprised if the digestive process were different. Perhaps no waste, perfect use!?

 

[Calminian]

God doesn't have a choice to change His nature either. If the creation doesn't glorify the creator, then it is unworthy to be in its presence. That's a law more stringent than the law of gravity. It's only because of His love that He found a way to satisfy the law and allow us into His presence.

This is a good point and another that many stumble on. The fact that God is omnipotent, doesn't not mean He can do the illogical. God's can't make square circles, nor act against His own will (eg. lie). God can to anything that is logically possible. An omnipotent being cannot violate His own will.

 

[Calminian]

Irrelevant. We are inquisitive creatures by nature. We’re not satisfied with simple authoritarian commands. We want to know why. This has nothing to do with good and evil. On the contrary, it is our questioning nature that allows us to learn. Adam and Eve were punished for being inquisitive.

Not at all. Adam and Eve had the opportunity to walk and talk with God and ask Him anything they wanted. They could enquire all they wanted about anything.

One cannot determine if a parent is good and loving by blindly obeying commands.

Parents should have no problem answering questions. Yet there are times as I'm sure you know when kids can't quite comprehend the parents explanations. There are times when parents must lay the law down. Good parents will do this.

 

[dad]

No, actually it says nothing about man eating again. Point out the verse to me that says they ate from the tree; not what you are implying, show me where it says adam ate from the tree of life.

It was there, he was told to eat of the trees in the garden. The tree of life sounds like the star of the show, belle of the ball, there. They may have been in the garden for many many years, why not eat it? It gave eternall life! Do you think Jesus walking and talking to them didn't clue them in about all kinds of things? Besides, how would starting to die be a punishment if you were already dying!!!!!!!!! Even after punishment, they lived near a thousand years.

Um, fruit is alive, until it is eaten. You have to kill it to eat it. Thus, death before the fall.

In a merged universe, like heaven, or the garden, I don't think it is murder. A lot of things are different. There is such a thing as getting too extreme in these things. "Hey bud, what are you in for?" "Oh, I murdered a mango, and have to go to purgatory for 4 weeks". Don't think so.

 

[dad]

How could they choose to do the right thing when they didn't know the difference between right and wrong? They were not intelligent in that respect. They were unable to decide not to do wrong, if they did not know what "wrong" was.

It doesn't say that. It wasn't the tree of right and wrong, but good and evil.

 

[Calminian]

It wasn't free reign, it was free will, to choose to obey, and do the right thing, or not, with the consequences. They were intelligent.

How could they choose to do the right thing when they didn't know the difference between right and wrong? They were not intelligent in that respect. They were unable to decide not to do wrong, if they did not know what "wrong" was.

What do you mean? The text says God explained to them about the trees. They didn't have a general knowledge of good and evil as we do instinctively, but they knew right and wrong regarding the trees. Right and wrong is an issue of knowledge. They had knowledge of the trees. To be more precise, they had the knowledge that they didn't know anything else about right and wrong (you might want to read that sentence again). God gave Adam a choice. "Hey if you eat of this tree you'll know right and wrong in depth as I do." Stay away from it or you'll be sorry."

Why did God give Adam this choice? He wanted His relationship with man to be based on freedom.

 

[Taralee]

The ancient Hebrews believed that God did everything. He created righteousness and evil, but promotes righteousness.

People say why doesn't God stop the evil in the world?

Man made in his mage is the one doing the evil.

The Fall is when man met the serpent in the paradise of Eden. The serpent being the evil part of the creation.

Because God also created the serpent and he was more subtle than any beast of the field. Evil didn't sneak into God's creation. God made the serpent and he also created Lucifer, the one who wanted to be in charge.

The Fall came when man obeyed the serpent and thus disobeying a clear command not to eat of the tree in the midst of the garden.

 

[dad]

Eve eats apple. -> billions of humans and other creatures die painfull deaths -> all perfectly logical.

right.

This thread was for explaining WHY it is perfectly logical. As in, begin with the basics (God's plan), then explain how the Fall fits into God's plan, and the explain how that fits with His personality.

You just said "God is just and it's very logical".

pff

I think of it like this, although I guess we don't really know.
(I may be at odds with some denominations idea of timing, and even wrong on some points, but the general idea I think is good)
God decided to make a demonstration for the entire universe as to why it is better to choose Him, rather than reject Him, and rebel. First thing we need here, free choice, the real macoy. Then the beings with this choice, like God has, in His image, put in a perfect place, where they would have no reason to complain. Eternal life, plenty of sex, food, animal companions, wonders of nature, weather that was ideal all the time, lots to do, etc etc etc. Heck, throw in trillions of stars and galaxies for good measure here, lets do it up right. Now just one little stinking tree in the whole paradise will represent disobedience, and the wrong way, departing God's way, and presence. They were told clearly ever so clearly everything but that one tree.
Along comes the serpent, as a test, trying to get them to die, and rebel, etc. The whole universe, not physical, but spiritual as well, where all those maybe trilloions of spirits live, was able to watch the show. Truman show, move over! What will they do, and what happens if they disobey? Sadly, they did just that.
Look around the world, and see up close and personal what all the universe can see, the tragic, horrors of hell that result, down that path of departing His will, and protection, care, and love!! Were there rebellious angels as well? Yes. Are there any more to come or since? Not likely, as all can see the horrific results of what happened when they rebelled, and we. Could He step in? Of course, but to do so directly ends the experiment. God has limited Himself to certain limitations within free will, and set the rules of the 'game'. The devil has to play by His rules, and can only go so far. Both spiritual forces intervene somewhat, with their agents, to some extent, within the rules.
Soon, the experiment ends, and He must step in, or we would kill ourselves, and wreck the planet! The experiment has run it's course, behold the results, O men. You still have real genuine choice, and can still choose God, or the devill, and departing from God, as we approach eternity! He waits with open arms.

 

[dad]

Don’t you claim that there was no death before the fall? I understand death because it is all around me. Adam and Eve had no concept of death.

Well, these things are deep, and I gess we don't really know. Heres my take, I could be wrong.
Some creatures were made with 'souls'. The creatures in the garden, maybe all of them, and I believe would have lived forever also. Some creatures, however I think were not made thus. As an example, lets say trilobites, not that we know this. One day, God took Adam and Eve, on His mobile throne on a tour of the world outside the garden, and they even saw earth from space, the first astronauts! (must admit, just threw that in, but why not?) Anyhow, He took them to see some of the nice busy cambrian creatures somewhere, busily working to prepare the new planet for our eventual spread out from Eden. Where they went, an old trilobite lived, and the visit was timed so that they would see the creature die. God wanted to really get them to understand the concept.
They never forgot that, and the many things He explained to them over the years, there in that perfect garden after that.
But we know the story, so God promised a savior, which did come long years later. He is about to return, and rule forever, where they will all live happily ever after!

 

[Edx]

I don't think we will need to eat. But we can. AS for bacteria there, I don't know, but it is so different, I would not be surprised if the digestive process were different. Perhaps no waste, perfect use!?

In order to digest food, something needs to die. Whether or not thats cells or bacteria, it makes no difference.

Ed

 

[Edx]

In a merged universe, like heaven, or the garden, I don't think it is murder. A lot of things are different. There is such a thing as getting too extreme in these things. "Hey bud, what are you in for?" "Oh, I murdered a mango, and have to go to purgatory for 4 weeks". Don't think so.

Who said anything about murder?

Ed

 

[dad]

In order to digest food, something needs to die. Whether or not thats cells or bacteria, it makes no difference.

Ed

Now, yes. But is it so in heaven? Perhaps the bacteria have new jobs there. Say, eating the leftovers, so there is no waste? I think it is hard to shake our concepts of how things now work, for a place where it is so very wonderfully different.