Explain Freewill

[freelivin]

I really feel that we confuse freewill with freechoice. The bible says that mans heart devises his way but theLord directs his steps. before i came to Jesus i did not have a freewill seeing that i was lost in my sins and was well on my way to eternal seperation from God. we do not have a choice in that matter or do we. The bible also says that if you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ that you will be saved. now ,if you do believe in him your life will show it.so even as abeliever in Jesus i do not have a freewill, because i find that in my walk with the Lord A STRUGGLE between my spirit man and my flesh . i have the power to choose ,yes but i do not have the power to say who or what i am. My life is now hid in Christ with God. SO i can honestly say that i do not have a free will but i do have the power to choose between wright and wrong.

IN HIS LOVE,paul

 

[Stairway]

Referring to the bible is completely useless, and does not support your argument.

 

[David Gould]

There is no free will, if we define free will as the ability to have chosen other than we did (which is what most people mean when they talk about free will). In other words, if the clock were wound back to a few moments ago could I have chosen to write something differently? This gets down to the question of why we choose the things that we do. We either choose the things we do for reasons, or we choose them for no reason at all. If we choose them for reasons, winding back time would not change these reasons; thus we would choose the same thing every run through. Choosing things for no reason is the very definition of randomness. Is randomness the same thing as free will? I suggest not. If so, is there any evidence that humans make random choices? I suggest not.

 

[David Gould]

I should also add that the fact that we feel as though we have free will is not necessarily a good reason to think that free will exists. There is significant evidence that humans can be fooled in regard to cause and effect, and this seems to be where our belief in free will arises from. I highly recommend The Illusion of Conscious Will by Daniel Wegner for all interested in the subject.

 

[mepalmer3]

How I act, is entirely dependant on socialization and biology. If I have more testosterone, I am likely to approach the person in jerkish fashion. If I was taught to be very respectful of women, then I would act in a way that is respectful. In essence, how I act in a given situation is either how I have been taught, or how I am biologically.

You're suggesting a conclusion without any empirical evidence to back up your claim. Since you're approaching it from within a scientific realm of all we are is what nature made and nothing else, then like a good scientist, you need to create a hypothesis, create a model, then predict how some people are going to act. And then you're predictions need to be highly accurate, not random. If you could do this, then your claim may have some legitimate merit to it. But as yet you're just guilty of rubbish speculation. You scoff at the creationists and religious folks, but then you one-up them by proposing something with no evidence, no hypothesis, and no predictions. If you're right though then you have no choice for your bad science.

 

[mepalmer3]

How I act, is entirely dependant on socialization and biology. If I have more testosterone, I am likely to approach the person in jerkish fashion. If I was taught to be very respectful of women, then I would act in a way that is respectful. In essence, how I act in a given situation is either how I have been taught, or how I am biologically.

I suspect the intellectual atheists at this point are finally beaming. They have finally found their case of the missing link -- someone who has not yet evolved to the point of having a conscience, free will, and the like. We may want to move this topic to the Creation and Evolution forum so that they can continue discussing this new find there.

 

[Lifesaver]

Freewill: Anything done of one's own accord; voluntary.

By such a definition, it is undeniable that free will exists. Afterall, I am here typing of my own accord. I am voluntarily answering this question.
And I imagine you are sitting in front of your computer of your own accord as well.

 

[David Gould]

By such a definition, it is undeniable that free will exists. Afterall, I am here typing of my own accord. I am voluntarily answering this question.
And I imagine you are sitting in front of your computer of your own accord as well.

Exactly. I think we need a little more thought on the definition.

 

[Stairway]

You're suggesting a conclusion without any empirical evidence to back up your claim. Since you're approaching it from within a scientific realm of all we are is what nature made and nothing else, then like a good scientist, you need to create a hypothesis, create a model, then predict how some people are going to act. And then you're predictions need to be highly accurate, not random. If you could do this, then your claim may have some legitimate merit to it. But as yet you're just guilty of rubbish speculation. You scoff at the creationists and religious folks, but then you one-up them by proposing something with no evidence, no hypothesis, and no predictions. If you're right though then you have no choice for your bad science.

Empirical evidence, interesting. If you want proof that our genetic makeup plays a role in who we are, then I can only shake my head in disbelief. It is common knowledge that we are products of our socialization / biology. If you think that we have a soul / spirit which somehow transcends the body and mind then I will ask you for empirical evidence. Secondly, this is not a question based on science, rather philosphy. Everything I have stated pertaining to biology and socialization is common knowledge and not refuted by anyone (except you?). Since I do not believe we have a god-given spirit, and no one can prove otherwise, I ask you again, how do we have freewill.

 

[freelivin]

I do not speak from a science point of view,they are still trying to figure out why the hummingbird flys. A hypothesis all that boils down to is a guess.

No,I speak from my own personal experience.I know the war that goes on in side of me. I think the apostle paul explains it best in romans chapter 7. we have the power to choose but we do not have the power to say who we serve.there are two paths you can go on, the one that splits hell wide open,or the one that leads to eternal life.

Be thankful you still have breath in your body to choose. The Lord said i set before you a blessing and a cursing,I SAY UNTO YOU CHOOSE LIFE.

THAT MY FRIENDS IS THE ONLY CHOICE THAT MATTERS. you are either gonna serve the desires of this world or you are gonna serve Jesus.

its your choice

 

[pro_odeh]

Humans have a will, but I dont think we can call it completely free..

 

[mepalmer3]

Empirical evidence, interesting. If you want proof that our genetic makeup plays a role in who we are, then I can only shake my head in disbelief. It is common knowledge that we are products of our socialization / biology. If you think that we have a soul / spirit which somehow transcends the body and mind then I will ask you for empirical evidence. Secondly, this is not a question based on science, rather philosphy. Everything I have stated pertaining to biology and socialization is common knowledge and not refuted by anyone (except you?). Since I do not believe we have a god-given spirit, and no one can prove otherwise, I ask you again, how do we have freewill.

There's no reason to think that science can't play a role here. Let's make a hypothesis and predict how people will react. Right? I mean that ought to make it very clear whether or not we're just computer programs or free-thinking, free-deciding people.

The hypothesis might go something like:

Given the same genetic make-up and same circumstances growing up, people will react in the same way every time.

Ok, so now we just need to observe what twins will do when presented with a situation. In fact I think there have already been a great number of studies similar to this. But regardless, watch some identical twins approach something, if you're correct then there's every reason to believe that they will react the same way to some stuff. Say they are raised in a very abusive, alcoholic family. You're hypothesis says they both will end up becomming the same. But if one does and one goes on to work for the peace corp, then the hypothesis falls apart and free will is demonstrated. And that's what we find when we make observations.

So the moral of the story is take some observations and you will very quickly see that your idea is wrong.

 

[Blackmarch]

I understand people make choices, however all of our choices are affected by two things; biological makeup and social learning. We of course are unable to choose either of these things, which begs the question, how do we (humans) really have free will?

Yes we do, those stated above are influences for sure (among others), so someone might be naturally inclined toward something different than another person, but it doesn't take away the other options should they decide to use their wills differenty.

 

[Stairway]

Yes we do, those stated above are influences for sure (among others), so someone might be naturally inclined toward something different than another person, but it doesn't take away the other options should they decide to use their wills differenty.

Have you ever made a choice, where your biological self, and social learned self haven't played a roll.

 

[Charlie V]

Have you ever made a choice, where your biological self, and social learned self haven't played a roll.

Great points, Stairway, I agree.

And I'd like to add one more:

Your choices are constrained by your biological self, your socially learned self and your environment.

Your environment could include specific circumstances (landslide, car accident, mugger, or even mundane events) or over-all circumstances (poverty in your town, war in your country.)

These affect your immediate choices, and may become part of your "socially learned self," but at the moment, they are simply your environment. The same person in a different environment is able (or more likely) to make different choices.

Charlie

 

[Stairway]

Yes we do, those stated above are influences for sure (among others), so someone might be naturally inclined toward something different than another person, but it doesn't take away the other options should they decide to use their wills differenty.

Have you ever made a choice, where your biological self, and social learned self haven't played a roll.

 

[elman]

Humans have a will, but I dont think we can call it completely free..

It does not have to be completely free for us to have free will. It can be influenced by genetics and environment and still the bottom line is we chose to do it that way and we not forced into that particular choice by our genitics and environment.

 

[elman]

Have you ever made a choice, where your biological self, and social learned self haven't played a roll.

That is not the question. The question is have you ever made a choice that was not forced on you by your biological self and social learned self?

 

[psychedelicist]

I understand people make choices, however all of our choices are affected by two things; biological makeup and social learning. We of course are unable to choose either of these things, which begs the question, how do we (humans) really have free will?

The best way I can think of to explain free will would be the ability to make decisions apart from our conditioned imprints. Whether or not it is possible is debatable. After all, what would you be without anything imprinted on your brain, right? On the other hand, this seems to be the goal of Buddhist and Hindu religions, commonly referred to as "enlightenment" or "true conciousness".

I know of ways in which one can delete these imprints, and add or change others, molding your mind into whatever you want it to be, but even then that decision would not be a truly concious one, and even after that, your later decisions would still be based on your new imprints, therefore not truly concious either. So I do not at this point really believe in true conciousness, but since it doesn't affect me either way, it doesn't really matter to me.

 

[Stairway]

That is not the question. The question is have you ever made a choice that was not forced on you by your biological self and social learned self?

And the answer, I would give you would be no.