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Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

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AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
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Then your beliefs are irrelevant.
Don't kid yourself.

I've been here long enough to know that, whether we believe A or not-A, it doesn't matter.
 
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whois

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I'm not aware of a single evolutionary biologist that states that. Certainly none of the biologists you've quoted or linked to has said that.
of course not:
now, in order to argue against this, you must accept the environment affects the genome (epigenetics), something you expressly deny.
 
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AV1611VET

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AV, have you actually read any of her books?
No.
Artemis said:
What you've written, and what she wrote, are in conflict with one another.
So she's still a YEC then?
Artemis said:
You are fabricating to make her narrative fit what you want it to be instead of the truth of it as described by her.
Here's a quote from your link:
Using as an illustration her own spiritual journey from certainty, through doubt, to faith,
Notice what it doesn't say?

It doesn't say she went from FAITH through DOUBT to FAITH.

It says she went from CERTAINTY through DOUBT to FAITH.

Now she seems to be looking back and insulting the beliefs of those who were instrumental to leading her to Christ.

My pastor is a YEC ... I am not -- scientists think I am.

But scientists think I'm a Homo sapiens as well, and so I don't give a hoot what they think I am.

Anyway, my pastor is a YEC, but you won't find me writing a book that shoots down YEC beliefs.
 
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crjmurray

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sfs

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of course not:

now, in order to argue against this, you must accept the environment affects the genome (epigenetics), something you expressly deny.
But I'm not arguing against what you quoted. Almost every evolutionary biologist agrees that the great majority of change to the human genome -- the great majority of human evolution -- is not the product of natural selection. That's not what you wrote, however. You claimed that they're saying that "natural selection is no longer valid as a driving force of evolutionary change." That statement is false. Natural selection is still considered by every biologist to be a driving force of evolutionary change. In particular, it is the primary driving force for all adaptive evolutionary change, and adaptive evolution is really, really important.

You've really got to stop getting this basic point confused.
 
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Oncedeceived

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I'm not aware of a single evolutionary biologist that states that. Certainly none of the biologists you've quoted or linked to has said that.
I am quite surprised by your statement:



Adam is not the first reviewer to take Shapiro to task for this. And, probably because he relegates natural selection to a minor role, Shapiro has been assumed to be an IDer by some, including some people in the ID community. This right here means there's a problem -- if a biologist can't question accepted wisdom in evolutionary theory, this makes evolutionary theory a dogma, just like ID. Science should always be questioning itself -- that's how knowledge is built and expanded upon.

But, giving succor to ID is not Shapiro's intention. This is clear from the 'debate' he has with IDers, which we won't even link to because it's tiresome, and really not much more than a clash of ideologies (you'll find it anyway, if you really must).

But, after this rather fruitless 'debate', Adam, or at least his review, gets pulled into the fray. Adam's piece was published in Genome Biology and Evolution in January. And the authors of the post believe it's a gotcha moment, saying that Wilkins admits something that few 'Darwinists' (and yes, that's a slur) will, which is that "a growing body of scientists" are starting to question the "alleged power of Darwin's natural selection to create the world of life that we see."

Yes, Adam does say that there are biologists who feel that the role of n.s. has been overstated (and yes, you've seen that here on MT, in fact). But, he absolutely does not include the 'therefore' that's implied -- therefore, if n.s. didn't do it, a designer did. The gotcha quote they pull from the review is this:
…the book’s contention that natural selection’s importance for evolution has been hugely overstated represents a point of view that has a growing set of adherents. (A few months ago, I was amazed to hear it expressed, in the strongest terms, from another highly eminent microbiologist.) My impression is that evolutionary biology is increasingly separating into two camps, divided over just this question. On the one hand are the population geneticists and evolutionary biologists who continue to believe that selection has a ‘creative’ and crucial role in evolution and, on the other, there is a growing body of scientists (largely those who have come into evolution from molecular biology, developmental biology or developmental genetics, and microbiology) who reject it.

http://ecodevoevo.blogspot.com/2012/02/doubt-and-dogmatism-in-science.html
 
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whois

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yes sfs, i admit you can get 3 when rolling 3 dice.
the fact is, natural selection IS NOT the driving force of evolution.
example:
Besides, many a neo Darwinist like Scott and others have made a lot of money on speaking engagements preaching neo Darwinism for a long time. And they are not about to give up that gravy train any time soon. And they're certainly not going to admit they were wrong, and say oh by the way, here is the new and improved theory.

This thread is exactly the kind of hand waiving Stewart Newman spoke of, and he believes this is why their is so much distrust on the side of the general public. Lets just admit we were wrong, and then maybe we could move ahead. And I include the now debunked junk DNA paradigm, gene centrism and biologies central dogma as well.
-evolutionlist.blogspot.com/2009/11/modern-synthesis-is-dead-long-live.html

also:
As for the neutral theory being fully integrated (and directly derived from!) the Modern Synthesis (or, for that matter, the idea that punctuated equilibrium or developmental plasticity or exaptation or any of the other major tenets of the "evolving synthesis"), I've been around long enough to remember how acrimonious the fights were between evolutionary biologists committed to the Modern Synthesis and those willing to entertain these emerging ideas. Motoo Kimura and Steve Gould were excoriated by "mainstream" evolutionary biologists, just as Mary Jane West-Eberhard still often is.

Old paradigms die hard, and as Thomas Kuhn asserted, often die when their adherents do.
-ibid

and this:
We should be equally clear that, in arguing for the necessity of this intellectual transformation, we do not think that those who based their research on the Modern Synthesis were "bad scientists" and those who now abandon it are "good scientists." We are simply offering an overview of how a large number of us have changed our thinking, our biological Weltanschauung.
-The new biology beyond the Modern Synthesis.htm
 
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Oncedeceived

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i've noticed this too.
there are a number of scientists that outright state that natural selection is no longer valid as a driving force of evolutionary change.
Right, and I just posted an article that says that if Scientists are not allowed to question anything in the theory it becomes dogma.
 
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Loudmouth

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yes sfs, i admit you can get 3 when rolling 3 dice.

You confuse the statement that "natural selection is not the primary mechanism of evolution" with "natural selection does not occur". You can't seem to understand that those are not the same thing.

the fact is, natural selection IS NOT the driving force of evolution.

However, it is one of the driving forces of evolution, and the primary driver of the subset of adaptive evolution.


Your example doesn't even mention natural selection.
 
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Oncedeceived

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I don't know if that is true. I think like the link in my post above, that there are two camps in the field and many do in fact believe that NS is not the driving force behind evolution.
 
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Loudmouth

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False claims of persecution do not take the place of scientific evidence.


Again, no mention of natural selection.
 
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whois

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Right, and I just posted an article that says that if Scientists are not allowed to question anything in the theory it becomes dogma.
i think there is a more subtle reason.
smashing the modern synthesis destroys almost every argument evolutionist have against ID and other similar "theories".
clinging to outdated theories does absolutely nothing for the advancement of evolution, and we will never find the answers by doing so.

what i can't understand, is why certain people are absolutely adamant that there be no room for such things.
it's like they are scared that the "other side might win" instead of "let's honestly pursue the truth".
 
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Loudmouth

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i think there is a more subtle reason.
smashing the modern synthesis destroys almost every argument evolutionist have against ID and other similar "theories".

Which one of your favorite scientists claims that?

How does HGT in bacteria destroy the evidence for human evolution?

clinging to outdated theories does absolutely nothing for the advancement of evolution, and we will never find the answers by doing so.

Misrepresenting the work of scientists also does nothing for the advancement of science.

what i can't understand, is why certain people are absolutely adamant that there be no room for such things.

There is room for mechanisms that you can actually evidence. The problem is that you can't evidence them.

You also take something that happens in one area of biology, and pretend that it applies to all of biology. That's wrong. Just because natural selection does not drive one part of evolution does not mean that it is incapable of driving another part of evolution, as one example.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Exactly. I agree completely. Science is to move forward and some would like it to stay static rather than discover something that might cast doubt on evolution.
 
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whois

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Exactly. I agree completely. Science is to move forward and some would like it to stay static rather than discover something that might cast doubt on evolution.
one thing is for sure, we now have the tools and techniques to conclusively prove "atoms to man".
so far, this proof has not been forthcoming.
science is at a complete loss to explain even "atoms to bacteria" much less "atoms to man".
and it isn't because of lack of research or brainpower, it's the utter impossibility of the problem.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Nah, that is just God of the gaps.
 
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Loudmouth

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one thing is for sure, we now have the tools and techniques to conclusively prove "atoms to man".

No scientist is using a theory called "atoms to man". This is something you have invented from whole cloth.

Real scientists are saying that humans evolved from an ancestor shared with chimps. We have both the genetic and fossil evidence that proves this theory beyond any reasonable doubt.

science is at a complete loss to explain even "atoms to bacteria" much less "atoms to man".

If science can't prove the origin of life, does this mean that we have to throw out the germ theory of disease?

and it isn't because of lack of research or brainpower, it's the utter impossibility of the problem.

Just your opinion.
 
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