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Exodus Historicity

Mrpp

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A year ago I made post here regarding Exodus historicity and through year I interacted with major scholars and egyptologists. And I realized I made error in abandonment of Jewish city. It didn't happened during Amenhotep 2 but Ramses. Also scholars and egyptologists pointed me into right date acording to Bible and there I found more compelling evidences than ever. Here there are.

WHEN EXODUS HAPPENED?

"they built Pithom and Rameses as store cities for Pharaoh." Exodus 1 11

Pi-Ramesses was the new capital built by the Nineteenth Dynasty Pharaoh Ramesses II (1279–1213 BCE) and it didn't exsist in any form before that. It also talks about specific action attached to it like building it so it cannot be anachronism. Also name of Ramses is the only name of pharaoh that appears in Exodus therefore it is obvious that it happened then.

The text indicates that the Israelites had been in Egypt for 430 years; that would coincide roughly with the narrative of Genesis, when Joseph would have gone to Egypt at the beginning of the 17th century BCE, according to the chronology that appears to be operative there (in Genesis

MAIN EVIDENCE

1 ABANDONMENT OF AVARIS

After Ramesses II constructed the city of Pi-Ramesses roughly 2 km (1.2 mi) to the north, Avaris was superseded by Pi-Ramesses, and thus finally abandoned during the Ramesside period acording to Manfred Bietak excavation there. Most importantly, the surrounding material culture does seem to continue on until the Rameside period. So the Semites who remained there after the Hyksos period were still there through the Thutmoside and Amarna period. But midway through the Rameside period, Tell el-dab’a (Avaris area) is left in ruins and replaced by cemeteries.

Bietak says there was “a Western Semitic population living in the eastern Delta for quite a length of time, from the late 12th Dynasty (ca. 1830 BC) until the Ramesside Period”

HOW DO WE KNOW IT IS ISRAEL CITY?

The research that led to this new began in 1966 when the Austrian Academy of Sciences opened the still-ongoing excavations at Tell el Dab’a, (ancient Avaris or Hwt-Waret) and identified the site as the Hyksos capital. Look, I’ll be straight with you: the Exodus was based on the Hyksos. No doubt about it. That is what the Egyptian historians claimed (Manetho), and that was what the Jewish historians claimed (Josephus). The Hyksos arrived in Egypt at the same time that the Israelites entered Egypt in the Bible. They both settled in the same city. Each of their leaders was granted authority equal to the Pharaoh. Each of their first kings was said to bear the title of “Shalyt.” Each stayed in Egypt for the same length of time. Each was driven by the country by a new Pharaoh who was concerned that they might turn against the native Egyptians. Each was driven from Egypt into the Levant. They left Egypt in similar numbers.There is evidence that the first Hyksos arrivals migrated from Mari, just like the family of Abraham. They have recovered over a dozen signet rings bearing the inscription “son of Jacob.” They found an Egyptian-style tomb for an Asiatic chieftain, adorned with a coat of many colors, and surrounded by eleven smaller family tombs, all from the same period. They found a papyrus from near the time of the departure of the Exodus with a list of slaves, and many of the names appear directly in the book of Exodus.

Dr Falk Egyptologist talks in detail about it in

2 conquest of Joshua

As to the only pharaoh associated in any way with Israelites, it is Merneptah (reign: 1213–1203 BC), son of Ramses II (reign: 1279–1213 BC). The famous “Merneptah stele” is largely an account of Merneptah's victory over the Libyans and their allies, but the last 3 of the 28 lines deal with a separate campaign in Canaan, then part of Egypt's imperial possessions. The stele is sometimes referred to as the "Israel Stele" because a majority of scholars translate a set of hieroglyphs in line 27 as "Israel.

What is the significance of this text? Hershel Shanks, editor and author, answers: “The Merneptah Stele shows that a people called Israel existed in 1212 B.C.E. and that the pharaoh of Egypt not only knew about them, but also felt it was worth boasting about having defeated them in battle.” William G. Dever, professor of Near Eastern archaeology, comments: “The Merneptah stele tells us unequivocally: There does exist in Canaan a people calling themselves ‘Israel,’ and thus called ‘Israel’ by the Egyptians—who, after all, are hardly biblically biased, and they cannot have invented such a specific and unique people as ‘Israel’ for their own propaganda purposes.”

3 Jericho

Jericho is one of the city that has very unique manner of destruction and there are evidence it was destroyed in 13 century.More recently, Lorenzo Nigro from the Italian-Palestinian Expedition to Tell es-Sultan has argued that there was some sort of settlement at the site during the 14th and 13th centuries BCE. He states that the expedition has detected Late Bronze II layers in several parts of the tell, although its top layers were heavily cut by levelling operations during the Iron Age, which explains the scarcity of 13th century materials. You also cannot accuse of Nigro the biasses cause of his says that the idea that the Biblical account should have a literal archaeological correspondence is erroneous, and "any attempt to seriously identify something on the ground with biblical personages and their acts" is hazardous. He also thinks Exodus is dated at 15 century.Lorenzo Nigro's excavations at Jericho published a Late Bronze layer that ended up in ruins in the LB IIB period (=13th century BC). See:

"The Italian-Palestinian Expedition to Tell es-Sultan, Ancient Jericho (1997-2015): Archaeology and Valorisation of Material and Immaterial Heritage" in (eds. Sparks, Finlayson, Wagemakers, Briffa) 'Digging Up Jericho: Past, Present, and Future,' Oxford: Archaeopress, 2020, pp. 175-214

4 Desert artifacts and inscriptions across sinai mention Israel.

There's a late Middle Kingdom Proto-Sinaitic inscription from an ancient copper mine in Sinai that appears to mention Moses' metallurgist brother-in-law Hobab in connection with the Israelites, who are frequently referred to as 'the Assembly of the Sons of Israel’ in the Moses account.

It reads:

“Now unto the Assembly and unto Hobab is the majesty of a furnace.”

Again, found at an ancient copper mine in the Southern Sinai Peninsula near traditional Mt Sinai and Biblical Dophkah, where the scripture records the Israelites stopping after the Wilderness Sin where Yahweh sent them 'Manna' to eat for the first time.

An inscription found at Dophkah reads:

“I uproot an oppressed garden! Who is on the Father's side in keeping your Manna?”

There is a alter at Mount Elba dated to around 1200 BC, but right under its foundation is earlier sacrifices from sheep, goats, cattle and deer and also a scarab depicting Thutmose III (but scholars state this is from 1250BC and not earlier).

5 Mountain Sinai

Experts believe they’ve finally found one of the holiest sites in the Bible — miles from where it was previously assumed to have existed.

A biblical archaeologist organization, The Doubting Thomas Research Foundation, claims it has found the actual mountain where, according to the Old Testament, Moses lead the Israelites – a mountain that was enveloped in smoke, fire and thunder – and where, at the top, Moses received the Ten Commandments from God.

Right at the foot of the mountain, there is an undeniably man-made structure with features that fit the Biblical requirements for a sacrificial altar.

This L-shaped structure clearly resembles chutes, which would be used for lining up the animals for sacrifice. At the end of the line, there is evidence of burnt sacrifices and various features required for the Exodus story to take place.

It is an earthen altar, does not have steps, and is made entirely of uncut stones, an anomalous design among most man-made structures

Tests on samples of the blackened rock retrieved in the 1980s by Bob Cornuke indicate they are metamorphic basalt.

The analysis of his rock samples concluded that it is most likely basalt that went through metamorphosis:

“[the rock was] metamorphosed in the low to middle amphibolite facies and may have undergone metamorphism at an approximate temperature of 500 degrees or lower at lower pressure, no more than 2 to 3 kilobars. My guess is that the rock started out as an igneous rock, probably of basaltic or andesitic composition and was later metamorphosed.”

6 plagues

Studies of stalagmites in Egyptian caves have found that timing coincides with a period of prolonged drought. AccuWeather founder and executive chairman Dr. Joel N. Myers, author of Invisible Iceberg: When Climate and Weather Shaped History, says the extended dry spell could have triggered a domino effect of natural disasters such as those described in the Bible.

“Once you have a drought and a heat wave, everything changes,” he says. “When the climate changes, a series of disruptions occur that feed on each other.”

The Bible lays out exactly the chronological events of the plagues. It isn't a coincidence that the exact sequence of events is verified by stalagmites taken from caves in Egypt, the presence of volcanic ash and pumice stone in an area where there has never been a volcano, and a complete change of climate during the reign of Ramses II, which would have accounted for these events.

All over the city of Avaris are shallow burial pits with multiple victims. There were no careful interments as was required under Egyptian customs. The bodies were thrown one on top of another in mass graves. There is no evidence of grave goods being placed with the corpses as was the Egyptian custom. Bietak is convinced this is direct evidence of a plague or catastrophe.

Wood shortages noted in later periods in Egypt, likely resulting from locust.

Amun-her-khepeshef was first in line to inherit the throne of Egypt from his father, Ramesses II's. He died before inheriting his father's titles 25 years into his father's rule.

7 Others evidences

High amount of Egyptian loanwords that's significantly more frequent than would be expected in Imperial Aramaic

Egyptian names in Pentateuch

Names fit with 2nd Millennium BCE

Use of toponym Raamses

Other Toponyms fit with 13th Century BCE

Exodus. 14-15 is similar to Kadesh Inscription

Not written in a Mythological Fashion

Attested in multiple Israelite sources

Literary device "mighty hand"

Requests for temporary leave

knowledge of Egyptian crop circles

Biographies of Ahmose showing that the people of Ataris were enslaved.

A change in dynasty explaining the new Pharaoh's lack of knowledge of Joseph.

Egyptians considering Semites enemies.

Rameses' successor was not as militarily strong, suggesting a weakening of Egypt in the wake of Exodus.

Other discoveries in Bible

The [Mesha Steel] (Mesha Stele - Wikipedia), erected by King Mesha of Moab, tells the story of the Moabite rebellion in 2 Kings 3:4–28 from the perspective of the Moabites.

The [cylinder of Cyrus] (Cyrus Cylinder - Wikipedia) confirms the role Cyrus the Great and the Persian Empire played in ending the Judean captivity in Babylon as described in the Bible.

The writings of [Flavius Josephus] (Josephus on Jesus - Wikipedia) provide a non-Christian source that supports the historical existence of Jesus.

There are countless more archaeological discoveries, as well, that confirm that the Bible, as a history of the Israelite people, at least reflects the history of a people as they told it.

Common objections debunked.

Consensus of experts is that exodus didn't happened

Contrary to the very popular misconception, the scholarly consensus among actual Egyptologists is that the Exodus is “very likely” rooted in historical events, but most Egyptologists shy away from the subject because it is too controversial. That is according to a survey of Egyptologists conducted by Dr. James Hoffmeier, who is himself an Egyptologist, the Professor of Old Testament and Near Eastern Archaeology at Trinity University, and the director of the North Sinai Archaeological Project.

According to Hoffmeier, 85% of the Egyptologists who responded to his survey believe that the Exodus was likely rooted in historical events. Many of them connect it to the expulsion of the Hyksos in 1522 BC (which has some very startling parallels the Exodus account), while others associate it with the reign of Ramses II. Only a few respondents said that a historical basis for the Exodus was “unlikely.”

David Falk"Today pendulum has shifted. It swunged another direction"

Why Exodus matters

Why Exodus events are so important. Getting Large numer of people out of Sinai without starving is miracle. Diffrence beetwen Exodus and other events is that it relies on miracles happened. If those were random natural disasters then pharaoh would never release slaves without being threaten. Even if you would explain all natural things in this story you would never explain why all those miracles happened at around the same time. It's timing is miraclous.

if God does not exist, the individual incurs only finite losses, potentially sacrificing certain pleasures and luxuries. However, if God does indeed exist, they stand to gain immeasurably, as represented for example by an eternity in Heaven in Abrahamic tradition, while simultaneously avoiding boundless losses associated with an eternity in Hell.

Sources

Pi-Ramesses - Wikipedia

“On the Historicity of the Exodus: What Egyptology Today Can Contribute to Assessing the Sojourn in Egypt,” in T. E. Levy, T. Schneider and W.H.C. Propp (eds.), Israel's Exodus in Transdisciplinary Perspective, Heidelberg-New York: Springer ,

_On_the_Historicity_of_the_Exodus_What_Egyptology_Today_Can_Contribute_to_Assessing_the_Sojourn_in_Egypt_in_T_E_Levy_T_Schneider_and_W_H_C_Propp_eds_Israels_Exodus_in_Transdisciplinary_Perspective_Heidelberg_New_York_Springer_17_36

Why I Took Down Exodus Rediscovered

Fall of Jericho - Wikipedia

https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/mfusve
https://doubtingthomasresearch.com/moses-altar-12-pillars/

https://jabalmaqla.com/blackened-peak/

Did Ramesses II, also known as Ramesses the Great, have anything to do with the ten plagues or exodus from Egypt?

Did the 10 Plagues of Egypt Really Happen? Here Are 3 Theories

Ten Plagues of Egypt

Amun-her-khepeshef - Wikipedia

https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/tcta7d
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bible/comments/196fbcg
Pascal's wager - Wikipedia
 
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Hans Blaster

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Just a minor note;

Using BCE might be in fashion in academia because they mostly hate God.​
Speaking of being a bit rude. ^^^
However, on a Christian web site it might be considered a little rude. If people do not like the calendar that was made in the name of Christ, they shouldn't steal it and rename it.​
Some medieval monk tried to count the years since Jesus and clearly got it wrong by a few. Nothing else in the calendar has the slightest thing to do with Jesus.

None of this calendar complaining makes the Exodus historical either.
 
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Maori Aussie

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I invested in a book by Egyptologist David Rohl about the historicity of Exodus. David Rohl does not identify as Christian and IMHO maintains a secular scepticism in his work, so some of his conclusions might challenge those who believe in scriptural inerrancy. But, David Rohl systematically analyses the evidence for Semitic Pharoh's in Avaris (parts underneath Pi-Ramses), the clearly Semitic culture of that city in Goshen, the decline of that culture, and its replacement by Egyptian culture in the city of Pi-Ramses on top of it. David Rohl then systematically follows the evidence to Jericho and beyond. David Rohls works follows the evidence between 1600 and 1400BC or so, finding no evidence in the 1200s.
 
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Maori Aussie

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I invested in a book by Egyptologist David Rohl about the historicity of Exodus. David Rohl does not identify as Christian and IMHO maintains a secular scepticism in his work, so some of his conclusions might challenge those who believe in scriptural inerrancy. But, David Rohl systematically analyses the evidence for Semitic Pharoh's in Avaris (parts underneath Pi-Ramses), the clearly Semitic culture of that city in Goshen, the decline of that culture, and its replacement by Egyptian culture in the city of Pi-Ramses on top of it. David Rohl then systematically follows the evidence to Jericho and beyond. David Rohls works follows the evidence between 1600 and 1400BC or so, finding no evidence in the 1200s.
David Rohl's work was later highlighted in the Christian documentary "Patterns of Evidence". Some of his conclusions might challenge those who believe in scriptural inerrancy. In particular, David Rohl points to Joshua 7:4-5 as an example to the problems modern translators have translating the Hebrew word "Eleph", often translated as "thousand".
 
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eclipsenow

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I invested in a book by Egyptologist David Rohl about the historicity of Exodus. David Rohl does not identify as Christian and IMHO maintains a secular scepticism in his work, so some of his conclusions might challenge those who believe in scriptural inerrancy. But, David Rohl systematically analyses the evidence for Semitic Pharoh's in Avaris (parts underneath Pi-Ramses), the clearly Semitic culture of that city in Goshen, the decline of that culture, and its replacement by Egyptian culture in the city of Pi-Ramses on top of it. David Rohl then systematically follows the evidence to Jericho and beyond. David Rohls works follows the evidence between 1600 and 1400BC or so, finding no evidence in the 1200s.
Nah - reading him apparently goes way outside the peer-reviewed process.

It's good to ask questions and check data from another angle - but it's always also good to hear what the other experts think.

Instead, try "Undeceptions". Dr John Dickson is a historian and theologian on a quest to interview the world’s leading edge experts on matters of science, faith, philosophy and ethics. He interviewed a Professional Egyptologist about both the archaeology of Egypt, and what biblical textual evidence might be hidden to lay readers of the bible. It’s a great episode from one of the world’s best investigative podcasts.

There is even a short discussion that almost sounds like heresy to some - but I think there is good evidence for it historically and from the biblical manuscripts. That is the small Israel hypothesis. I mean - if Israel really had over 600,000 SOLDIERS alone - wouldn’t they have been the ones kicking the Egyptians out? The delta was one of the best places in the ancient world for good food!

Instead the word ‘aleph’ for ‘thousand’ can also mean ‘unit’ or ‘family group’ or ‘troop’. It might be that the reason there is no evidence of millions of Israelites leaving Egypt and walking through the desert for 40 years is that it didn’t happen - there may have only been 25 to 35 thousand of them! (How often was it said God didn’t pick them because they were the largest of nations - but one of the smallest? 600,000 soldiers alone would have made them the unrivalled superpower of the ancient world! There were meant to be only 55,000 at the Battle of Kadesh - known as WW1 of the Ancient World - and that's the combined military might of Egypt and the Hittites fighting it out!)

This episode is well worth a listen - and then again a few months later.
The Exodus
 
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Maori Aussie

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Nah - reading him apparently goes way outside the peer-reviewed process.

It's good to ask questions and check data from another angle - but it's always also good to hear what the other experts think.

Instead, try "Undeceptions". Dr John Dickson is a historian and theologian on a quest to interview the world’s leading edge experts on matters of science, faith, philosophy and ethics. He interviewed a Professional Egyptologist about both the archaeology of Egypt, and what biblical textual evidence might be hidden to lay readers of the bible. It’s a great episode from one of the world’s best investigative podcasts.

The Exodus
I like John. I have one of his coffee table books.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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@Maori Aussie, @eclipsenow, I like both John Dickson and David Rohl. I'll listen to them just as readily as I would Israel Finkestein and James K. Hoffmeier, among others.
 
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Maori Aussie

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Israel Finklestein is a giant in the field of Archaeology. I most appreciate that he was committed to reading the Seder to his children on Passover, and explaining its cultural significance, if not its historicity....
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Israel Finklestein is a giant in the field of Archaeology. I most appreciate that he was committed to reading the Seder to his children on Passover, and explaining its cultural significance, if not its historicity....

Yeah, but I also like some of David Rohl's ideas, even if it turns out he's incorrect.
 
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eclipsenow

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Yeah, but I also like some of David Rohl's ideas, even if it turns out he's incorrect.
Sometimes it takes a bit of pressure from someone in error for those less so to define their terms, take a fresh look, clarify issues, etc. As iron sharpens iron... etc. These conversations amongst leaders in their field can help us understand what the questions even are!
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Sometimes it takes a bit of pressure from someone in error for those less so to define their terms, take a fresh look, clarify issues, etc. As iron sharpens iron... etc. These conversations amongst leaders in their field can help us understand what the questions even are!

That's for sure. The Exodus is one of those 1,001 question areas of inquiry and because of this I'm open to as many views of that event as there are scholars for it.
 
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Maori Aussie

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To be clear, I do not understand David Rohl's New Chronology New Chronology (Rohl) - Wikipedia, but personally, I do not need to know the Pharoh's name. David Rohl's alternative chronology was exceptional in that many Egyptologists at least looked at it but chose to hold onto the standard Chronology. I understand that widespread radiocarbon dating has subsequently essentially vindicated the standard Chronology. To that extent, David Rohl was indeed "outside the consensus", but IMHO this is the process by which the consensus is "sharpened" indeed!
 
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2PhiloVoid

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To be clear, I do not understand David Rohl's New Chronology New Chronology (Rohl) - Wikipedia, but personally, I do not need to know the Pharoh's name. David Rohl's alternative chronology was exceptional in that many Egyptologists at least looked at it but chose to hold onto the standard Chronology. I understand that widespread radiocarbon dating has subsequently essentially vindicated the standard Chronology. To that extent, David Rohl was indeed "outside the consensus", but IMHO this is the process by which the consensus is "sharpened" indeed!

I hear you. I'm also trying to understand how Rohl recounts the dynasties to arrive at his theoretical construct, but I don't have any of his books and I've only heard pieces of what he's shared in certain Patterns of Evidence vids. At present, my understanding of Rohl's views is limited.
 
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Maori Aussie

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That's for sure. The Exodus is one of those 1,001 question areas of inquiry and because of this I'm open to as many views of that event as there are scholars for it.
Sadly, the historicity of Exodus, and the subsequent Israelite conquest of Cannan are part of the "Culture Wars". In David Rohl's book he tries to (objectively) identify some broad factions and the truths that they will die on that hill for. IMHO he is not mean or derogatory, he then simply states where he differs, and then he explains why in very great detail including illustrations from archaeological sites.
The "Culture Wars" regarding the latest Sodom candidate is especially brutal.
IIRC "their work should be dismissed as it references young earth creationist literature" i.e. the Torah...
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Sadly, the historicity of Exodus, and the subsequent Israelite conquest of Cannan are part of the "Culture Wars". In David Rohl's book he tries to (objectively) identify some broad factions and the truths that they will die on that hill for. IMHO he is not mean or derogatory, he then simply states where he differs, and then he explains why in very great detail including illustrations from archaeological sites.
The "Culture Wars" regarding the latest Sodom candidate is especially brutal.
IIRC "their work should be dismissed as it references young earth creationist literature" i.e. the Torah...

Yes, it's a shame that so much of the Bible is at the center of the cross-hairs of the "Culture Wars." I'd like to see what Rohl has to say about how he classifies the factions and where he differs. I'm a Christian myself, but I don't adhere to inerrancy, so I don't have to die on that hill to maintain my faith. I just enjoy the journey of research as I come to it from as many angles as possible.
 
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Maori Aussie

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Yes, it's a shame that so much of the Bible is at the center of the cross-hairs of the "Culture Wars." I'd like to see what Rohl has to say about how he classifies the factions and where he differs. I'm a Christian myself, but I don't adhere to inerrancy, so I don't have to die on that hill to maintain my faith. I just enjoy the journey of research as I come to it from as many angles as possible.
I will check. IIRC David Rohl described one faction as the "Evangelical" faction and named their leader.
He was broadly in agreement with them except on chronology.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I will check. IIRC David Rohl described one faction as the "Evangelical" faction and named their leader.
He was broadly in agreement with them except on chronology.

That sounds good. In the meantime, I'm going to check out that wiki link for Rohl you left above in a previous post. :cool:
 
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Hans Blaster

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Sadly, the historicity of Exodus, and the subsequent Israelite conquest of Cannan are part of the "Culture Wars".
No, its not part of the "culture wars". The historicity of Exodus or Joshua are matters of scholarly and scientific examination.
In David Rohl's book he tries to (objectively) identify some broad factions and the truths that they will die on that hill for. IMHO he is not mean or derogatory, he then simply states where he differs, and then he explains why in very great detail including illustrations from archaeological sites.
The "Culture Wars" regarding the latest Sodom candidate is especially brutal.
The "culture wars" are all of that "woke/anti-woke", etc. nonsense, not the facts of ancient history or the truth of various religious claims.
IIRC "their work should be dismissed as it references young earth creationist literature" i.e. the Torah...
Whrt?
 
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eclipsenow

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No, its not part of the "culture wars". The historicity of Exodus or Joshua are matters of scholarly and scientific examination.

Have a listen to the Undeceptions episode above. There is internal biblical textual and cultural evidence of the Israelites having lived in Egypt.

But today's Egyptologists rule it out automatically, because it's the bible. They sort of abandon biblical historical clues. To them it's just a religious book - not a stele or inscription or something Egyptian - it's ruled out of court before it has had a chance to speak.

This is not my area - I barely remember the details - stuff like names and cultural references etc. There's also temple paintings referencing Semites.

But there definitely is a sort of cultural bias in Egyptology against doing their due diligence with an ancient text - and it seems to be because it is a faith still practices today. There's an embarrassment about being seen to study it. But here's the thing - almost every ancient text is religious! They don't have trouble reading other religions texts or scrolls or wall paintings.
 
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