Exodus 22:28

[novcncy]

I typically use the KJV, in which the verse reads "Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people." Now the word I'm wondering about is the word "gods". I looked at the other versions available on Blueletterbible.org and all of them translated this word as "God". The NLT, although I'm not a fan of it, is the only one to include a footnote that this word may be "judges"

This same Hebrew word is also translated gods in the Psalms (82:1), but in modern vernacular, it seems to mean judges. This is reflected when compared to the other versions, many of which (but not all) translate this specific instance as "judges", or "rulers".

Now, given the context of Exodus 22, it seems to me to make sense that the verse I quoted is telling us not to revile the judges, or curse the ruler of the people. This is not what the translations would tell me, so I was wondering if anyone else has any observations on the issue.

I think arunma uses the ESV, so how does that translate it? Is there anyone who is particularly literate in Hebrew who can shed some light on this? I'm okay in Arabic, and there are a lot of parallels, but I'm not fluent, and although I can see the structure of the specific verse, and a comparision of the context in translation, I'm wondering if there's something in the Hebrew that would rule this out?

One thing for sure, is that a study of the word "gods" is a pretty monumental task. Sure, most of the times it means idols, or false dieties, but sometimes, it's not so obvious. Such as, when God is called God of gods.....does that really mean Judge of judges, or is it showing His position over all the false gods of the world. This is a pretty striking example of how the archaic language of the KJV can lead to some ambiguity. That's why I'm curious in the first place. I'm glad we don't call judges gods anymore. Anyway, I have much to study, but if anyone has some thoughts on this specific instance, I would appreciate it.

 

[Crazy Liz]

The old JPS says:

Thou shalt not revile God, nor curse a ruler of thy people.​

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0222.htm

 

[arunma]

The ESV translation says, "You shall not revile God, nor curse a ruler of your people." I suppose this translation also makes sense, since the Hebrew word for the Divinity is plural. Hope that helps!

 

[JPPT1974]

The ESV translation says, "You shall not revile God, nor curse a ruler of your people." I suppose this translation also makes sense, since the Hebrew word for the Divinity is plural. Hope that helps!

I suppose also the word for divinityis plural as well. As we shouldn't act like we are Gods and pretend that we are rulers over them. Because that sounds like we are using others.

 

[arunma]

I suppose also the word for divinityis plural as well. As we shouldn't act like we are Gods and pretend that we are rulers over them. Because that sounds like we are using others.

Those who have taken Hebrew classes tell me that one of God's names, "elohim" (which is rendered "God" in English translations) is a plural word which is, for whatever reason, used to refer to a singular noun. It seems that in Hebrew, a word is sometimes made plural to indicate respect or reverence.

 

[Singinman]

Vol I of the Schocken Bible, "The Five Books of Moses" translates the verse, "God you are not to curse, an exalted-leader among your people you are not to damn. This translation is billed as one which gives us the cadence and poetics of Hebrew with the vocabulary of English.

In my Hebrew classes, we learned that the closest English could come to the Hebrew of Gen 1:1 was, "In beginning God began to create. .. " In other words not a definate point in time. The SB translates this, "At the beginning of God's creating of the the heavens and the earth . . ." It is the most unusual translation of Gen 1:1 in any translation with which I am familiar and the closest to what I learned. Our professor at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary was the only gentile named to the Committee to modernize Hebrew so it could be used again as a liveing language. I think it interesting that the SB comes the closest to Dr. Owens translation. This gives me some confidence in the approach taken by the SB people.

 

[novcncy]

So what about Psalm 82:1? That is also the word, eloyhim.

 

[EIChief]

To understand the meaning of the first part of Psalm 82, read John 10:31-39. Jesus rebukes those who are about to stone him by referring directly to the Psalm.

The Bible in context is a beautiful thing.

 

[novcncy]

To understand the meaning of the first part of Psalm 82, read John 10:31-39. Jesus rebukes those who are about to stone him by referring directly to the Psalm.

The Bible in context is a beautiful thing.

The point here is that the word eloyhim is used elsewhere when NOT referring to God.

Although it is topical, and a great point you have made, it's not in context. Context would be the rest of the Psalm.

Context is also one of the main reasons I started wondering about this in the first place. Here we are in Exodus, and God is giving Moses all these instructions in how to deal with his fellow man, and then, out of the blue, a reference to God? God already covered his initial instructions on how to deal with Him, so why would He insert another instruction in the midst of another topic? It just doesn't make much sense.

 

[Flynmonkie]

The Companion Bible (Bullinger) shows cross-reference to.

Curse

Ecclesiastes 10:20
20Curse not the king, no not in thy thought; and curse not the rich in thy bedchamber: for a bird of the air shall carry the voice, and that which hath wings shall tell the matter.

Acts 23:5
5Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

2 Peter 2:10
10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Jude 1:8
8Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Not sure if this helps?

 

[EIChief]

The point here is that the word eloyhim is used elsewhere when NOT referring to God.

Although it is topical, and a great point you have made, it's not in context. Context would be the rest of the Psalm.

I see your point, however the reference to the Psalm by Jesus in the account of John is most certainly in context. Looking at the Bible in its context does not mean that it must be contained within the same book. So I am not sure I follow you here. I am asserting that the latin elohiym used in the Psalm passage relates to gods or judges because of the way Jesus refers to the passage when he is about to be stoned. In this context it must be referring to Judges appointed by God who the Psalm goes on to condemn.

John 10:34-35 Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, I said, you are gods? "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken).

This seems clear as to the interpretation of the Psalm, which is what your post before mine asked for. I think that sometimes we have to move beyond language translations and understand the Bible in its context.

Context is also one of the main reasons I started wondering about this in the first place. Here we are in Exodus, and God is giving Moses all these instructions in how to deal with his fellow man, and then, out of the blue, a reference to God? God already covered his initial instructions on how to deal with Him, so why would He insert another instruction in the midst of another topic? It just doesn't make much sense.

In Exodus, God had given the law through Moses. Elohiym could be used in both the singular (God) or the plural (gods) which probably leads to the confusion. After the instruction is given the people are told to not blaspheme God or the one giving instruction which makes sense given the situation. Eloyhim must be translated here in the singular meaning "God" in order to make sense since God was truly leading the people. I think that it is not a stretch to say the people were told not to rebuke Moses, or God himself for that matter. Inserting this does not seem unreasonable

Exodus 23:32 translates Elohiym in the plural again because the singular would not make sense here. Going from the ancient Hebrew to moder day language is a tough task since often times words have different meanings when used in different connotations.

 

[Flynmonkie]

The Divine Names And Titles

This Is Appendix 4 From The Companion Bible.
I. ELOHIM occurs 2,700 times. Its first occurrence connects it with creation, and gives it its essential meaning as the Creator. It indicates His relation to mankind as His creatures (see note on 2Chronicles 18:31, where it stands in contrast with Jehovah as indicating covenant relationship). ‘Elohim is God the Son, the living "Word" with creature form to create (John 1:1. Colossians 1:15-17. Revelation 3:14); and later, with human form to redeem (John 1:14 ). "Begotten of His Father before all worlds; born of His mother, in the world." In this creature form He appeared to the Patriarchs, a form not temporally assumed. ‘Elohim in indicated (as in the Authorized Version) by ordinary small type, "God". See table below........

http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app4.html

The Divine Names and Titles in the New Testament.
This Is Appendix 98 From The Companion Bible.
All names and titles used of one Person represent the different relationships which are sustained by Him.
In the New Testament these are more varied, and not less important than those in the Old Testament; and Appendix 4 should be compared with this Appendix.
The following exhibition of them practically embraces all that is necessary to enable the English reader to understand them, and to grasp something of the perfection with which each is used.
The list of Names, etc. is given according to the common English rendering of the Authorized Version, as being more easy for reference. It does not include "Spirit" or "Holy Spirit": for which see the separate Appendix, Number 101. Reference is made, in the notes, to the following divisions and subdivisions :-


GOD.

GOD. Greek Theos. The Greek language, being of human origin, utterly fails (and naturally so) to exhibit the wonderful precision of the Hebrew, inasmuch as the language necessarily reflects, and cannot go beyond the knowledge, or rather the lack of knowledge, of the Divine Being apart from revelation.

Theos corresponds, generally, with `Elohim of the Old Testament, denoting the Creator (see Appendix 4. I); but it corresponds also with El (Appendix 4. IV), and Eloah (Appendix 4. V). Sometimes it corresponds with Jehovah (who is `Elohim in Covenant relation), in which case it is printed GOD, as in the Old Testament (both Authorized Version and Revised Version).

1. Theos is used in the New Testament of the Father, as the revealed God (see John 1:1. Acts 17:24, etc.).
2. It is used of the Son (Matthew 1:23. John 1:1; 20:28 , ect. Romans 9:5. 2Peter 1:1. 1John 5:20 ). Compare Colossians 2:9 and 2Peter 1:3,4.
3. It is used of the Holy Spirit (Acts 5 verse 3, compared with verse 4 ).
4. It is used generically, as in John 10:34. Acts 12:22. 2Corinthians 4:4. Philippians 3:19, etc.
5. It is used of false gods, as in Acts 7:43, etc.; and is printed "god" as in the Old Testament.

Cognate with Theos, there are three other words to be noted:

Theotes, rendered "Deity", and used of Christ. Occurs only in Colossians 2:9, and has relation to the Godhead personally; while
Theiotes, rendered "Deity" also, is Deity in the abstract. Occurs only in Romans 1:20.
Theios, rendered "Divine", and is used of Christ. Occurs only in 2Peter 1:3,4; and, with the Article, in Acts 17:29 where it is rendered "Godhead". Greek = that which [is] Divine.

http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app98.html

 

[Ragamuffins]

ASV Exodus 22:28 Thou shalt not revile God, nor curse a ruler of thy people.

DRB Exodus 22:28 Thou shalt not speak ill of the gods, and the prince of thy people thou shalt not curse.

HCSB Exodus 22:28 "You must not blaspheme God or curse a leader among your people.

From Strongs:
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

KJV from the KJV Concordance: it is used 2605 times as god, gods was 216, god's 7, judges 4, goddess 2, great 2, mighty 2, angels 1, exceeding 1, god-ward 1, godly 1, judge 1, very 1.

 

[JPPT1974]

Those who have taken Hebrew classes tell me that one of God's names, "elohim" (which is rendered "God" in English translations) is a plural word which is, for whatever reason, used to refer to a singular noun. It seems that in Hebrew, a word is sometimes made plural to indicate respect or reverence.

Thanks for the explanation my friend!

 

[Flynmonkie]

Another thing I noticed, Following through in verse chapter context.. v 8, 9 both refer to judges (KJV). According to the BLB also 'elohiym.

I still don't understand why the translation would be different for V28 as opposed to v 8, 9...

Why would the translators choose to translate 'elohiym to "judges" in preceding verses within the same chapter, yet others "Gods".

 

[novcncy]

Another thing I noticed, Following through in verse chapter context.. v 8, 9 both refer to judges (KJV). According to the BLB also 'elohiym.

I still don't understand why the translation would be different for V28 as opposed to v 8, 9...

Why would the translators choose to translate 'elohiym to "judges" in preceding verses within the same chapter, yet others "Gods".

Precisely the issue.

 

[novcncy]

Those who have taken Hebrew classes tell me that one of God's names, "elohim" (which is rendered "God" in English translations) is a plural word which is, for whatever reason, used to refer to a singular noun. It seems that in Hebrew, a word is sometimes made plural to indicate respect or reverence.

Are you sure about eloyhim being a "name" of God? I think it's a word for God, which has more than one meaning, and hence the confusion, but I will look into it some more. I thought God had names like Jehovah Jirah, Adonai, etc. etc.

 

[novcncy]

I see your point, however the reference to the Psalm by Jesus in the account of John is most certainly in context. Looking at the Bible in its context does not mean that it must be contained within the same book. So I am not sure I follow you here.

CONTEXT: 1 : the parts of a discourse that surround a word or passage and can throw light on its meaning

The Psalm is not immersed in John, and is not surrounded by Jesus utilization of the scripture. Is it applicable? Absolutely. Is it in context, not according to an English definition of the word.

I am asserting that the latin elohiym used in the Psalm passage relates to gods or judges because of the way Jesus refers to the passage when he is about to be stoned. In this context it must be referring to Judges appointed by God who the Psalm goes on to condemn.

John 10:34-35 Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, I said, you are gods? "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken).

This seems clear as to the interpretation of the Psalm, which is what your post before mine asked for. I think that sometimes we have to move beyond language translations and understand the Bible in its context.

It's Hebrew, not Latin, but I do agree with your interpretation. This is an example I referred to to demonstrate that the word eloyhim does not always refer to diety.

In Exodus, God had given the law through Moses. Elohiym could be used in both the singular (God) or the plural (gods) which probably leads to the confusion. After the instruction is given the people are told to not blaspheme God or the one giving instruction which makes sense given the situation. Eloyhim must be translated here in the singular meaning "God" in order to make sense since God was truly leading the people. I think that it is not a stretch to say the people were told not to rebuke Moses, or God himself for that matter. Inserting this does not seem unreasonable

Exodus 23:32 translates Elohiym in the plural again because the singular would not make sense here. Going from the ancient Hebrew to moder day language is a tough task since often times words have different meanings when used in different connotations.

My argument is (and I'm pretty sure I've laid this out elsewhere in the thread) that since God had already covered the area of how the people were to treat God, and had moved on to the area of how people were to treat each other, that the word might be more appropriately thought of as judges (i.e. human judges) instead of the more common translation God (referring to diety). It doesn't make sense to me that He would insert a random paranthetical instruction, as if He had forgotten to spell it out. "Oh, and one thing I forgot, Moses...." just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Flynmonkie]

My argument is (and I'm pretty sure I've laid this out elsewhere in the thread) that since God had already covered the area of how the people were to treat God, and had moved on to the area of how people were to treat each other, that the word might be more appropriately thought of as judges (i.e. human judges) instead of the more common translation God (referring to deity). It doesn't make sense to me that He would insert a random parenthetical instruction, as if He had forgotten to spell it out. "Oh, and one thing I forgot, Moses...." just doesn't make sense to me.

I of course am very new at this, but actually it was this same type of issue in "translation" I ran into that started my quest for “deeper study”. My apologies. I thought that you needed research for the word, not really grasping your question. While I don’t believe we are “Gods” in any way, this leads me to believe that in other scripture we are told we would judge angles.
So it makes sense to define this as judge. However I am also not sure why the same word is somehow translated in this manner. While reading v8.9 the notes Bullinger left say to refer to Ex 21:6 or “before God” (the judges representing Him) and acting in His stead. According to Romans 13:1-6. See this usage with the article 21:6. 22: 8,28. Chapter 18: 15,19. and cp Psalm 82,1,6. John 10: 34, 35. Of course this makes sense. But does not really explain why the translation difference. And it would be nice to know the thought or reasoning behind this.

I am doing some checking; I will see what I come up with.