Exodus 21

[jd01]

How are we to understand the commandments given eg in Exodus 21?

 

[childofdust]

Care to elaborate on your question? It's so broad and unspecific, that it's hard to offer any kind of answer.

There is a lot of juicy stuff in the Covenant Code. One could probably spend years just on Exodus 21:1-23:19 alone.

For instance... Is “Followers of Multitudes” a theological term?

23:2 Do not become followers of multitudes toward evil [things]. Do not turn to reach followers of multitudes.
(My Translation)

Could that, perhaps, be a veiled, derogatory term for some kind of sectarian?

Or why does it specify that a woman who practices magic should die, but not a man?

22:17 Do not let a female shaman live.
(My Translation)

Do two wrongs make a right?:

22:21 Any widow or orphan, do not violate.
22:22 If you should violate [that] one, then when s/he cries out to me for help, I will listen attentively to the outcry of [that] one,
22:23 my anger will be kindled, and I will slay you with the sword. Then your wives will become widows and your children, orphans.
(My Translation)

If we have premarital sex, are we bound to marry that person?

22:15 And when a man should entice a virgin who has not been betrothed and “lays down” with her, he must surely acquire her for himself as a wife.
(My Translation)

Or does that only apply to women who are virgins? If one has premarital sex with someone who isn't a virgin, they don't have to marry them?

Etc etc etc. Endlessly fascinating questions.

23:19b Do not cook a kid in the milk of its mother.
(My Translation)

 

[jd01]

Well something like

21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Isn't this a direct command from God?

 

[hedrick]

Well something like

21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Isn't this a direct command from God?

It's part of a legal code for Israel. The usual analysis is that it combines moral principles with instructions on ceremonies that don't apply to Christians, and with regulations for civil institutions such as a penal code. This punishment looks like part of the legal code, though cursing your father and mother is still a moral problem.

Also, later Jewish opinion is that the death penalty was intended to show the severity of the offense, but wasn't carried out literally. I don't know whether this is just 1st Cent practice, or whether the same approach might have applied when the law was given. By the 1st Cent legal procedures were set up so as to make the death penalty effectively impossible to carry out, even though it was theoretically in force.

 

[hedrick]

If we have premarital sex, are we bound to marry that person?

It's certainly an honorable resolution to the problem, if it's appropriate. But situations are different. At that time a woman who wasn't a virgin would find it nearly impossible to end up as anything other than a prostitute. For better or worse that is no longer true. However I'd say you are still obligated to help the person deal with consequences.

 

[jd01]

It's part of a legal code for Israel.

Isn't this THE legal code not 'a' legal code? This is part and parcel with the Ten Commandants.

The usual analysis is that it combines moral principles with instructions on ceremonies that don't apply to Christians, and with regulations for civil institutions such as a penal code. This punishment looks like part of the legal code, though cursing your father and mother is still a moral problem.

Why does it not apply to Christians? God's command is applied selectively?

Also, later Jewish opinion is that the death penalty was intended to show the severity of the offense, but wasn't carried out literally. I don't know whether this is just 1st Cent practice, or whether the same approach might have applied when the law was given. By the 1st Cent legal procedures were set up so as to make the death penalty effectively impossible to carry out, even though it was theoretically in force.

But the command is clear and it comes straight from God so we are told, so why abrogate it? If God intended for it to be symbolic then He would have said so.

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

These commands are given to the nation of Israel, not to the entire world. By obeying these commands Israel establishes a special relationship with God not extended to the entire world.

In Exodus 21-23 God lays down the laws Israel is to follow, then in Exodus 24 Israel agrees to enter the covenant with the Lord.
So Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD and all the judgments. And all the people answered with one voice and said, “All the words which the LORD has said we will do.” (Exodus 24:3)

By doing so, Israel obtains special status as God's nation, the nation that will eventually bring the Gospel to the entire world.

So you see, these rules and regulations are not for everyone, only for the nation of Israel which enters a special covenant with God.

 

[jd01]

So you see, these rules and regulations are not for everyone, only for the nation of Israel which enters a special covenant with God.

So Jews today should practice these rules and regulations? Do we also assume the same with the Ten Commandants which are part of this legal code?

 

[Jpark]

Well something like

21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Isn't this a direct command from God?

The penalty is no longer instantaneous.

That was when there was no chance for repentance given at all.

It's still in effect but there is simply more time given.

Consider Genesis 2:17.

 

[hedrick]

I thought by now Christians understood that the whole OT law doesn't apply to us. That's why we aren't circumcised. See Acts 15. What hasn't change from the OT is basic moral principles. In this case the issue isn't whether premarital sex is OK, but the consequences should it happen. Nothing in the BIble indicates that the whole OT legal code applies outside the covenant with the Jews. The code was given through Moses to the Jews. Now obviously God's basic principles are the same whether you're a Jew or not, but specifics of the legal system can certainly be different.

There are two common opinions. One is that the OT covers several things: moral, civil law, and ceremonies, and the moral law applies to us. The other is that none of it applies to us. But if you do that, you've still got Jesus' law of love, and typically that is stricter than the legal code, though there may be (depending upon the interpreter) some exceptions. (Some people are prepared to argue that premarital intercourse is one of the exceptions, but this thread is about the consequences, not whether the act is acceptable.)

Basically my claim is that making someone marry the person they had intercourse with was never the ideal consequence, particularly in the case of rape. But in the OT culture it was probably the best alternative. In today's it often is not.

Most Christians assume that the 10 commandments are part of the moral code, and so they still apply. However they apply as Jesus interpreted them in, e.g., Mat 5. He shifts the focus from letter to intent. Thus Christian interpretation significantly broadens them. E.g. the commandment against murder is taken as a responsibility for safeguarding others' lives. However the OT doesn't specifically label what are eternal moral principles and what are not. It's a judgement call. Since Jesus commented on and endorsed most of the 10 commandments (the others being largely our duty to God, which he covered elsewhere), it seems reasonable to think the the 10 actually do still apply to us. But in the modified form that emphasizes intent. That doesn't mean that the 10 commandments are the only thing from the OT that still applies, just that it's a set that most Christians agree do. And when interpreted broadly, it may well cover everything that needs to be covered.

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

So Jews today should practice these rules and regulations? Do we also assume the same with the Ten Commandants which are part of this legal code?

That's correct the ten commandments are given to Israel exclusively and they are still under this covenant. However, we find all of the moral values given in the ten commandments reiterated in the New Testament. The only commandment not reinforced in the NT is the Sabbath.

In the new covenant it is not what we do that saves us, it's what we believe. Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law for us (Romans 10:4) who believe in the work done on the cross.

 

[LLWHA]

It's part of a legal code for Israel. The usual analysis is that it combines moral principles with instructions on ceremonies that don't apply to Christians, and with regulations for civil institutions such as a penal code. This punishment looks like part of the legal code, though cursing your father and mother is still a moral problem.

Also, later Jewish opinion is that the death penalty was intended to show the severity of the offense, but wasn't carried out literally. I don't know whether this is just 1st Cent practice, or whether the same approach might have applied when the law was given. By the 1st Cent legal procedures were set up so as to make the death penalty effectively impossible to carry out, even though it was theoretically in force.

True followers of Jesus Christ are part of his Holy Nation of Israel (not that little nation in the middle east).

All true followers of Jesus Christ follow "The Way" that would mean they follow the Laws of God.

 

[LLWHA]

That's correct the ten commandments are given to Israel exclusively and they are still under this covenant. However, we find all of the moral values given in the ten commandments reiterated in the New Testament. The only commandment not reinforced in the NT is the Sabbath.

In the new covenant it is not what we do that saves us, it's what we believe. Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law for us (Romans 10:4) who believe in the work done on the cross.

If you are a follower of Jesus Christ you are part of his Holy Nation of Israel and you must follow "The Way". You must Honour your Father in Heaven and KEEP His COMMANDMENTS; LAWS; Statutes; Judgements; Economic Policy; Agricultural Policy and Diet as Jesus Christ did.

 

[LLWHA]

These commands are given to the nation of Israel, not to the entire world. By obeying these commands Israel establishes a special relationship with God not extended to the entire world.

In Exodus 21-23 God lays down the laws Israel is to follow, then in Exodus 24 Israel agrees to enter the covenant with the Lord.
So Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD and all the judgments. And all the people answered with one voice and said, “All the words which the LORD has said we will do.” (Exodus 24:3)

By doing so, Israel obtains special status as God's nation, the nation that will eventually bring the Gospel to the entire world.

So you see, these rules and regulations are not for everyone, only for the nation of Israel which enters a special covenant with God.

The whole Idea was for everyone in the world to become Israel (Champions of God). So all people that want to be part of Israel will Honour your Father in Heaven and KEEP His COMMANDMENTS; LAWS; Statutes; Judgements; Economic Policy; Agricultural Policy and Diet.

You must be like Jesus and he Honoured his Father in Heaven.

 

[LLWHA]

I thought by now Christians understood that the whole OT law doesn't apply to us. That's why we aren't circumcised. See Acts 15. What hasn't change from the OT is basic moral principles. In this case the issue isn't whether premarital sex is OK, but the consequences should it happen. Nothing in the BIble indicates that the whole OT legal code applies outside the covenant with the Jews. The code was given through Moses to the Jews. Now obviously God's basic principles are the same whether you're a Jew or not, but specifics of the legal system can certainly be different.

There are two common opinions. One is that the OT covers several things: moral, civil law, and ceremonies, and the moral law applies to us. The other is that none of it applies to us. But if you do that, you've still got Jesus' law of love, and typically that is stricter than the legal code, though there may be (depending upon the interpreter) some exceptions. (Some people are prepared to argue that premarital intercourse is one of the exceptions, but this thread is about the consequences, not whether the act is acceptable.)

Basically my claim is that making someone marry the person they had intercourse with was never the ideal consequence, particularly in the case of rape. But in the OT culture it was probably the best alternative. In today's it often is not.

Most Christians assume that the 10 commandments are part of the moral code, and so they still apply. However they apply as Jesus interpreted them in, e.g., Mat 5. He shifts the focus from letter to intent. Thus Christian interpretation significantly broadens them. E.g. the commandment against murder is taken as a responsibility for safeguarding others' lives. However the OT doesn't specifically label what are eternal moral principles and what are not. It's a judgement call. Since Jesus commented on and endorsed most of the 10 commandments (the others being largely our duty to God, which he covered elsewhere), it seems reasonable to think the the 10 actually do still apply to us. But in the modified form that emphasizes intent. That doesn't mean that the 10 commandments are the only thing from the OT that still applies, just that it's a set that most Christians agree do. And when interpreted broadly, it may well cover everything that needs to be covered.

[SIZE=+1]Jesus said, "I am The Way, the Truth and the Life" and "no man comes to the Father except by me." "The Covenant is called "The Way" in The Torah and Jesus was saying that he was a living demonstration of it (The Way) in action, demonstrating how YOU have to be if YOU want to survive and go home to Father. We have perfect harmony between the two "Songs", The "Song" of Moses and The "Song" of The Lamb (Christ).[/SIZE]

 

[jd01]

I thought by now Christians understood that the whole OT law doesn't apply to us. That's why we aren't circumcised. See Acts 15. What hasn't change from the OT is basic moral principles.

Sorry hedrick, I don't think that makes sense. There are OT basic moral principles that are contradicted by Jesus' teachings; genocide, slavery, capital punishment, not treating women as equals.

And you can't separate the Ten Commandments from the other Commandments that surround it.

 

[x141]

If the first commandment is obeyed everything else will fall in line.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

How are we to understand the commandments given eg in Exodus 21?

James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

 

[jd01]

If the first commandment is obeyed everything else will fall in line.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. ?

How does everything fall into line?