Exodus 20 explained?

[Dave L]

Wrong. Paul calls the gentiles added to Israel - the CULTIVATED olive tree of Romans 9 the "Commonwealth" of Israel, like Australia or New Zealand are in the Commonwealth of Great Britain. Not really Englishmen but citizens there anyway.

Ephesians 2:12
remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.​

We were added to Israel in Christ. The unbelievers removed becoming gentiles by default.

 

[Dave-W]

The unbelievers removed becoming gentiles by default.

Not really. You need to read the text a bit closer.

 

[Ken Rank]

“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand To bring them out of the land of Egypt; Which my covenant they brake, Although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, And write it in their hearts; And will be their God, And they shall be my people.” (Jeremiah 31:31–33)

Why would you quote a set of verses I can repeat in my sleep after I just said you won't want to have this discussion? You won't seriously consider anything I share about the above verses (and them being repeated word for word in Hebrews 8:8-11) so why waste your time and mine by posting this?

 

[eleos1954]

Guys, can you all help shed some light on this please?

You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.

Is that referring to statutes like that of Jesus, Saints e.t.c?

graven image -an object (such as a statue) that is worshipped as a god or in place of a god

Important one worships God who created us.

 

[Strange Plane]

No. It refers to creating images of the sun or the moon or astrological signs like the zodiac (in the heavens). It also prohibits creating images of animals (on the earth) or fish (in the waters).

In nearly his next breath God commands the Israelites to create images of cherubim to place on the top of the ark of the covenant, and other images such as pomegranates for use on the priest's clothing.

The prohibition was against creating your own god and worshipping it.

*cough* globes.

 

[Dave L]

Why would you quote a set of verses I can repeat in my sleep after I just said you won't want to have this discussion? You won't seriously consider anything I share about the above verses (and them being repeated word for word in Hebrews 8:8-11) so why waste your time and mine by posting this?

Just making my position clear and questioning yours.

 

[Dave L]

Not really. You need to read the text a bit closer.

Broken off = gentile.

 

[Dave L]

Wrong. Paul calls the gentiles added to Israel - the CULTIVATED olive tree of Romans 9 - the "Commonwealth" of Israel; like Australia or New Zealand are in the Commonwealth of Great Britain. Not really Englishmen but citizens there anyway.

Ephesians 2:12
remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.​

Body of Christ is body of Israel.

 

[Dave-W]

Broken off = gentile.

No. Gentiles are CUT off from the wild tree. Not broken from the cultivated one.

 

[Dave L]

If that is the case, the devil won and Jesus will never return to earth.

John calls those who call themselves Jews and are not, the synagogue of Satan. And elsewhere Antichrists... Sounds like the devil lost and Jesus will be here in person on the last day.

 

[Dave L]

No. Gentiles are CUT off from the wild tree. Not broken from the cultivated one.

Unbelieving Jews were cut off (became gentiles) when Christ abolished circumcision. Paul says broken off Jews (became gentiles) in Romans 11. One must be attached to be a member of Israel.

 

[Soyeong]

Guys, can you all help shed some light on this please?

You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.

Is that referring to statutes like that of Jesus, Saints e.t.c?

It is speaking about images that are used in worship. So having two cherubim over the ark of the covenant is ok, but someone using them as the focus of their worship would not be ok.

 

[Ken Rank]

Just making my position clear and questioning yours.

And your position needs to be clear why? Are you the authority, Dave? And then you question my what, position... when I didn't even share it?? That's humorous.

In any event, I have a few minutes.

Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--

Dave... the word for new is chadashah. This is Strong's #2319 and it is defined there as new, fresh. However, Strong's points out that the root is 2318, chadash. Since I know you speak Hebrew, you know this is true... what we see in Jer. 31:31 is the verb chadash, which means "to renew," being used as an adjective (which is why the suffix "ah" was added) to describe the covenant. The meaning of the word doesn't change... it still means, "to renew." In other words, it isn't "new covenant," it is "renewed covenant." And seeing God called the covenant at Sinai, "everlasting," (Ps 105:10) then this stands in harmony because, if we have an everlasting covenant (outside of time, you have well established the meaning of this word in other posts ) then God renewing what was broken by man is consistent and is nothing but grace.

Now, before you lose your teeth, we need a second witness and it comes to us from the NT.

When the Jer. 31:31 verse is repeated in Hebrews 8:8, we see that the word new is kainos. Here is what Strong's says about kainos.

G2537
kainos
Of uncertain affinity; new (especially in freshness; while G3501 is properly so with respect to age): - new.

Kainos is new ESPECIALLY IN FRESHNESS. Another word, nehos (G3501) is new in regards to AGE. So kainos is making something fresh, renewing it... nehos is something brand new, never before seen. A brand new car... nehos... a restored 68' Mustang? That would be kainos. It is the language and there isn't anything you or I can say to change it... it is simply the language.

So this isn't a new covenant. There are new aspects to it... like taking that which was on stone and moving it to the heart... but it is the same everlasting covenant renewed through Yeshua's blood.

 

[Barney2.0]

A couple of verses later and you still see God commanding the making of images and the building of statues on the Ark. Is this a contradiction? No! Exodus 20 refers to images worshipped as gods like what happened with the Brass Snake which was why it was ordered destroyed during the reign of the righteous king Hezekiah. I’d also urge you to google images of the inside of the second temple, it was pretty full of images.

 

[Kaon]

Guys, can you all help shed some light on this please?

You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.

Is that referring to statutes like that of Jesus, Saints e.t.c?

Yes.

 

[Blade]

FOR ME.... a picture of Jesus or any of the like.. its NOT Jesus.. He is NOT there in that thing..I do NOT worship it pray to it. They would make those things bow down.. worship it... theres a HUGE Christ where? People go to that.. talk to that pray to that.. in my reading that is wrong

 

[martymonster]

It means, don't remake God in man's image.

 

[PaulCyp1]

This verse means nothing alone. It is a two-verse message. This verse is meaningless without the following verse. The two verses together are an obvious condemnation of idolatry. It forbids us from making AND WORSHIPPING graven images. Obviously making a statue is not a moral concern. Making and WORSHIPPING a statue is idolatry.

 

[DamianWarS]

Guys, can you all help shed some light on this please?

You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.

Is that referring to statutes like that of Jesus, Saints e.t.c?

yes all statues are by definition a graven image and violate this command. You can be sure Moses would not accept gnomes in your garden or fat baby angels in the fountains let alone a statue depicting God or highly revered women. He would destroy these things and possibly put to death the offender.

A "graven image" is not just a thing that is worshiped it is all things essentially carved out of wood or stone. Ancient cultures like these were predisposed to worshiping idols and pagan practices because this is the world they knew. Carved out things that were left unchecked could quickly become something else, especially thing with a supernatural connection.

The bible did ordain specific cases where graven images were allowed such as cherubim with the Ark of the Covenant and Solomon's temple but what is important is that these are specific cases that are endorsed by God and had a lot of accountability checks and proper use would have been strictly enforced. The brass serpent is an another example ordained by God and although it had specific context it seems to have been less strict and people started to worship it so it was taken down.

Today however we are free to have things like gnomes or baby angels without fearing this commandment. By the letter of the law we violate it but the law was not written for us and it does not apply to us. Christ's law is what we look to and get our direction from not the law of Moses. Both are God's law but they are each for a specific context the the law of Moses is not for our context.

However making religious statues or symbols should still be approached carefully. Although we do not worship them in a traditional sense often they are treated like good luck charms which is placing power in objects not in God. For example I've seen a lot of people use a cross around their neck as a charm that they touch or kiss. These behaviours are irresponsible and we are going to inevitably start to make deep connections with these objects as types of fascinators into the spiritual which takes away glory from God and we may find ourselves seeking these fascinators more and more like a drug.

I took a trip to Vietnam and the area I was in had a strong Catholic background as well as Buddhist. Across the city there was statues of effeminate buddhas as well as statues of Mary at various churches. From a distance and often up close you couldn't tell the difference. We call Buddha an idol but what I saw was the same value superimposed over the church, it just used a different image. This doesn't mean all areas of the world approach statues of Mary this was but for this area of Vietnam it would be highly irresponsible and sends confusing messages as to what Christians actually worships. I'm not saying that venerating Mary in all cases is idolatry but I am saying that this model simply should not be used in all areas the world and I would say that in at least this area people treated Mary as they treated Buddha.

 

[Dave-W]

Unbelieving Jews were cut off (became gentiles)

Read the text again:

Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,​

Broken off, not cut. But of the gentiles:

Rom 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?​

Gentiles are CUT off. The difference is a cut branch can be grafted in anywhere. A broken branch can ONLY be grafted in to the exact spot it was broken from. That means that Jews remain Israel if they are grafted back in or not.