Exodus 19! Help!?

[Chavez]

Right...so I've been reading through Exodus for a while now and I came across something that really made me think.
And even now..I still can't find the answer. I was thinkin maybe some of you guys could help me out here.
It's about not being able to see the face of God lest we die.

So..I was reading in Exodus 19.
The verses in relation to this are 12,13,21,22,24.
I don't wanna write them all out..so here's verse 21:

"And the Lord said to Moses, "Go
down and warn the people, lest they
break through to gaze at the Lord,
and many of them perish."

When I read this I thought...hmm...so I checked a few references and once again in Exodus 34:3..Moses is asked to come alone.
BUT
in Exodus 24:9-10; Moses, Nadab, Aaron and Abihu saw God.??
But then goes on to say in Exodus 33:20 that nobody lives if they see His face?? :

"But He said, "You cannot see My
face; for no man shall see Me, and
live." "


So yeh..i was thinkin there must be a reason for this..and the only reason I can see as of yet is pointed out in Hebrews 12:18-21.


"And so terrifying was the sight
that Moses said, "I am exceedingly
afraid and trembling.")"
Verse 21.

That they weren't ready/prepared for it. They might find it frightening??
Any thoughts?

 

[Manna Man]

Our small group was discussing this issue the other day. Our conclusion was that the holiness of God is so perfect, so piercing, so bright, so burning with truth, that we, as sinners, simply can not stand up to it. His holiness only contrasts with our sinfulness, pointing out to us how insufficient we really are. A good example to look at is Elisha, and his Woe judgement upon himself when he saw the holiness of the Lord.

 

[johnd]

John 6:46 “Not that any man has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

Non-Trinitarians have real problems, because some did see God and at the same time no one can see God and live. (or no one alive can see God).

Colossians 2:9 For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

Colossians 1:15 And He is the ((visible)) image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.

Those who saw God saw God the Son. God the Father has been seen by no man (except the God-man Jesus). No one alive can see God the Father (or God the Spirit either since God is Spirit {see John 4:24} and as Colossians 1:15 says God is invisible). So, what they saw is the pre-incarnate Jesus.

Bear in mind that the human eye can only see portion of the spectrum of light.

​

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Right...so I've been reading through Exodus for a while now and I came across something that really made me think.
And even now..I still can't find the answer. I was thinkin maybe some of you guys could help me out here.
It's about not being able to see the face of God lest we die.

So..I was reading in Exodus 19.
The verses in relation to this are 12,13,21,22,24.
I don't wanna write them all out..so here's verse 21:

"And the Lord said to Moses, "Go
down and warn the people, lest they
break through to gaze at the Lord,
and many of them perish."

When I read this I thought...hmm...so I checked a few references and once again in Exodus 34:3..Moses is asked to come alone.
BUT
in Exodus 24:9-10; Moses, Nadab, Aaron and Abihu saw God.??
But then goes on to say in Exodus 33:20 that nobody lives if they see His face?? :

"But He said, "You cannot see My
face; for no man shall see Me, and
live." "


So yeh..i was thinkin there must be a reason for this..and the only reason I can see as of yet is pointed out in Hebrews 12:18-21.


"And so terrifying was the sight
that Moses said, "I am exceedingly
afraid and trembling.")"
Verse 21.

That they weren't ready/prepared for it. They might find it frightening??
Any thoughts?

In the OT this is the Son of God that comes and talks face to face...

John 5:37,1tim 6:16 .....no one has seen the Father shape or heard His voice

In Exdous 24:2 only moses was able to come near the Son

God called him

the rest of the nation if they did not listen would have died.

It is showing God sovernity, holyness, righteousness


Look how foolish the children of Israel were in exodus 19:8 then read 19:4

this is why God made the Law to teach man how unable to reach for God's kind of Character

 

[Chavez]

So..it was the Son is that it??
I can't see where this comes from though?

 

[johnd]

So..it was the Son is that it??
I can't see where this comes from though?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was WITH the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our joy complete.

Does this help?

 

[Chavez]

Hmm......
it's very complicated isn't it?
Could it possibly have been the Father they saw? no!?

So what that's sayin is that Jesus was with the Father from the beginning..
and that's what the people saw yeh??
So why did it say...that it was God.!?
wow...

 

[A Brother In Christ]

genneric term

 

[johnd]

Hmm......
it's very complicated isn't it?

See my examples below regarding the plurality of persons in the Godhead. Hopefully that with the guidance of the Holy Spirit will make it less complicated.

Could it possibly have been the Father they saw? no!?

I have to go with what the Bible says in these matter, Chavez. It says Jesus is the {visible} image of the INVISIBLE God (Colossians 1:15) and Jesus told Philip that anyone who has seen him has seen the Father (John 14:8-9) which he explained:

John 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

So what that's sayin is that Jesus was with the Father from the beginning.. and that's what the people saw yeh??

They saw Jesus (actually the Word) before he became a man. Yes.

So why did it say...that it was God.!?
wow...

Because he is God. Jesus is one person in the Godhead.

God is a compound entity of Father Son and Holy Spirit. "God" is almost always recorded in the Old Testament as the plural "elohiym" in Hebrew. Seldom is it the singular "elohe" and sometimes the abreviated "el."

To try to picture the nature of God in your mind, think of three family members. Three persons = one family.

In the case of deity, three persons are the one God.

It's not that complicated if you accept what the Bible says and don't give into the tendency to equate 1 person per God. For example, when the Bible quotes God using singular personal pronouns it is simply one person in the Godhead speaking for the Godhead. Each is fully God.

Like the family example. One can speak for the family because each is fully family (fully a member of the family).

 

[Chavez]

wow thanks...that made it much less complex...!
Thank you!

 

[Knowledge3]

I think when Jesus talks about 'seeing' God, maybe referring to 'knowing' God in Spirit?

After pointing the Colossian verse about Christ being the fullness of God in bodily form, I think God is the Holy Spirit made Jesus. It is still a mystery to me even at this point. To me, to see Jesus in full bodily form would be the final result of all things.

You have to consider that Jesus didn't have except His spritual Father to teach him the will of God, but seemed to be able naturally teach because God had imparted these things to him naturally.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Ever made a connection between the event is Exodus 19 and those in Acts 2?

They are supposed to have happened on the same day. Jewish tradition places the giving of the Torah on the Biblical Holiday called the Feast of Weeks (Shavuot). This is Pentecost!

 

[johnd]

wow thanks...that made it much less complex...!
Thank you!

You are welcome!

 

[johnd]

I think when Jesus talks about 'seeing' God, maybe referring to 'knowing' God in Spirit?

But when Jesus mentioned such "sight" it was in direct relations with a parable. "He who has eyes to see, let him see..." It is couched in symbolic language. The one verse when he did not do so was when he told Phillip "he who sees me has seen the Father..." John 14:9

Which he previously explained:

John 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

Or as Colossians 1:16 puts it "he is the {{visible}} image of the invisible God.

After pointing the Colossian verse about Christ being the fullness of God in bodily form, I think God is the Holy Spirit made Jesus.

Unless Lutherans changed their doctrines and I am unaware of it, that is not Lutheran theology. I noted your icon stated you are a Lutheran. Lutherans historically believed the doctrine of the Trinity which I simplified a couple of posts back.

You cannot have God WITH God (John 1:1) if there is only one person in the Godhead. The only way to have that is to have multiple Gods and the Bible teaches there is only one God (Deuteronomy 6:4 and so on).

Jesus cannot be the Holy Spirit because he SENDS the Holy Spirit into the world (John 15:26). One cannot send themself. The Father is not the Holy Spirit because the Father also SENDS the Holy Spirit into the world (John 14:26). Though there is unity in the Godhead there is individuality of the persons in the Godhead.

It is still a mystery to me even at this point.

I suspect this is because in your mind you are trying to make it into something it is not. As I said in another post, God is not one person. God is three persons each who are fully God.

To me, to see Jesus in full bodily form would be the final result of all things.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the final result of all things."

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

This verse is simply referring to the resurrected state of Jesus. And like Jesus we will all be resurrected. But that is the fullest extent of how we will be like him. Jesus is 100% human but he is also 100% God. And this rule will never cease:

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

You have to consider that Jesus didn't have except His spritual Father to teach him the will of God, but seemed to be able naturally teach because God had imparted these things to him naturally.

I must disagree on the basis of scripture.

Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

He had to learn as we all do. But he had the Father as his tutor much in the same way we have the Holy Spirit (John 16:13, 1 Corinthians 2:10, 13).

Here's an idea.

Pray for the tutelage of the Holy Spirit and sit down in a quite place and read the Bible for a few hours, and prepare to be amazed.

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

He wrote the Bible, after all.

 

[johnd]

Ever made a connection between the event is Exodus 19 and those in Acts 2?

They are supposed to have happened on the same day. Jewish tradition places the giving of the Torah on the Biblical Holiday called the Feast of Weeks (Shavuot). This is Pentecost!

Khaver! Manishma?

Why don't you expound on this point and make the comparisons?

 

[Knowledge3]

But when Jesus mentioned such "sight" it was in direct relations with a parable. "He who has eyes to see, let him see..." It is couched in symbolic language. The one verse when he did not do so was when he told Phillip "he who sees me has seen the Father..." John 14:9

Which he previously explained:

John 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

Or as Colossians 1:16 puts it "he is the {{visible}} image of the invisible God.

Right...My past Bible study has reminded me of this verse(s).

John 1.18
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

John 5.37
And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.


Jesus is talking about something we cannot see, God is Spirit. Non-believers are not able to decipher these languages with out the guidance of the Spirit.

Unless Lutherans changed their doctrines and I am unaware of it, that is not Lutheran theology. I noted your icon stated you are a Lutheran. Lutherans historically believed the doctrine of the Trinity which I simplified a couple of posts back.

You mean believe.

I wasn't practicing a strict theology but merely trying to spark a discussion.I am a Lutheran and proud to be one,but I stay away from strict theology that favors teaching of men and church traditions over love for your neighbor.

You cannot have God WITH God (John 1:1) if there is only one person in the Godhead. The only way to have that is to have multiple Gods and the Bible teaches there is only one God (Deuteronomy 6:4 and so on).

Jesus cannot be the Holy Spirit because he SENDS the Holy Spirit into the world (John 15:26). One cannot send themself. The Father is not the Holy Spirit because the Father also SENDS the Holy Spirit into the world (John 14:26). Though there is unity in the Godhead there is individuality of the persons in the Godhead.

I agree. I cannot disagree with your scripture.Anytime someone starts to reference multiple verses on one particular subject; that tells me something.

I suspect this is because in your mind you are trying to make it into something it is not. As I said in another post, God is not one person. God is three persons each who are fully God.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the final result of all things."

I am talking about seeing God in complete fullness in your spirit.Which is what I desire, but being patient in doing so. I am not talking about worship or prayer but actually experiencing God in fullness.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

This verse is simply referring to the resurrected state of Jesus. And like Jesus we will all be resurrected. But that is the fullest extent of how we will be like him. Jesus is 100% human but he is also 100% God. And this rule will never cease:

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

I must disagree on the basis of scripture.

Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

He had to learn as we all do. But he had the Father as his tutor much in the same way we have the Holy Spirit (John 16:13, 1 Corinthians 2:10, 13).

Here's an idea.

Pray for the tutelage of the Holy Spirit and sit down in a quite place and read the Bible for a few hours, and prepare to be amazed.

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

He wrote the Bible, after all.

Pray for the tutelage of the Holy Spirit and sit down in a quite place and read the Bible for a few hours, and prepare to be amazed

That's a very good idea,I've been doing that for several years.

 

[Steve Petersen]

There is a Jewish tradition that when God gave the Torah at Sinai on Pentecost, there was wind and fire. Fire issued from God and came to each Jew individually. His voice was heard in the 70 languages of the world.

All this imagery is found in Acts 2. Pentecost is a bridge between the giving of the Law and the giving of the Spirit. This seems to be a fulfillment of the prophet Ezekiel:

Ezek 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Ezek 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Sorry this is for the 1000 year reign of Christ .

we do not always do the the statutes....1 john 1:8-10

Whats the importance of doing the commandments ... Matt 13:36-43

what do unbeliever do to excape this demise...matt 5:27-32


God has put a spirit within us....but not a govener to control us.

 

[johnd]

That's a very good idea,I've been doing that for several years.

Wonderful