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Existence of demons

mindlight

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Do demons exist or are they simply examples of mental ill health and should be treated psychologically? Which comes first the hosting of a demon or a poor state of mental health?

Can you cast a demon out of people today?

How could a legion of demons exist inside a single man (Lk 8:26-39)? Why would they want to dwell in this man only driving him to a solitary place? Is the mission of demons to terrorise as widely as possible or simply to maintain their own existence in some kind of comfort?

Do you have any experience of demons being driven out of yourself or others?
 

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Do demons exist or are they simply examples of mental ill health and should be treated psychologically?

It should be no surprise that I see one's "demons" as produced by one's own psychology.

How could a legion of demons exist inside a single man (Lk 8:26-39)?

Split personalities?

Why would they want to dwell in this man only driving him to a solitary place? Is the mission of demons to terrorise as widely as possible or simply to maintain their own existence in some kind of comfort?

I personally think that the story you are talking about should be read as a parable with a deeper meaning, and not as a literal story about a man with many demons.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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SkyWriting

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Do demons exist or are they simply examples of mental ill health and should be treated psychologically? Which comes first the hosting of a demon or a poor state of mental health?
Can you cast a demon out of people today?How could a legion of demons exist inside a single man (Lk 8:26-39)? Why would they want to dwell in this man only driving him to a solitary place? Is the mission of demons to terrorise as widely as possible or simply to maintain their own existence in some kind of comfort?Do you have any experience of demons being driven out of yourself or others?

This covers all your questions, though I'm not
convinced the source is unbiased. I'm not fond
of TV related sources.
Read it with a grain of salt.

http://www1.cbn.com/demons-exist-and-man-can-prove-it
 
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mindlight

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It should be no surprise that I see one's "demons" as produced by one's own psychology.

Demons as self projections is probably a pretty standard view amongst atheists but it is difficult to explain some peoples experiences with demons. For example a lady who was told to go to a certain hotel on a street she had never been on and then to a specific hotel room. She found her husband with another woman in a state of undress and it ended her marriage. The kind of fruit that you would expect of the kingdom of darkness. Such external knowledge as with Christian spiritual giftings cannot be explained using a merely selfish or materialistic model.

Split personalities?

The schizoid personality discussion has been an incredibly unproductive line of thought. Has anyone ever been liberated from their "personal demons" by psychologists in counselling sessions rationalising in this way. 6 months therapy is only good for the psychologists bank account most of the time. I am not sure I have ever seen a case of mental healing outside of a Christian context

I personally think that the story you are talking about should be read as a parable with a deeper meaning, and not as a literal story about a man with many demons.

I would not expect an atheist to say anything else.
 
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mindlight

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This covers all your questions, though I'm not
convinced the source is unbiased. I'm not fond
of TV related sources.
Read it with a grain of salt.

http://www1.cbn.com/demons-exist-and-man-can-prove-it

I have heard a lot of these personal anecdotal type testimonies to an experience of demons. A great many have been drunks or junkies. I suppose the question is if the messy mental context in which these testimonies are usually phrased is a symptom or a consequence of a persons general mental state. Objective proofs which we can test our own experience of the supernatural would include:

1) when things are known or communicated which could not possibly have been known.
2) when an unnatural ability results e.g. fortune telling or ability to break metal chains etc

The bible is clear demons exist. As with CS Lewis in his Screwtape Letters it seems Satans broad strategy is one of concealment in the current age. He can do far more damage with secular psychologists and philosophers than by directly revealing himself.
 
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mindlight

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I have just one question for "excorcism" believers...

How do you objectively tell the difference between a psychiatric disorder or psychological problem and an actual demonic posession?

As previously suggested an unnatural ability such as foreknowledge of bad events, knowledge of things not personally possible or unnatural strength would all be more objective evidences. Though this kind of evidence is something a person can accept for themselves but may not be as readily accessible to a third party who was not themselves a witness to them.

But so also the spirit in which a person speaks reveals their intent and motivations. There are of course deeply disturbed people who speak out of their inner darkness rather than any light that may dwell in them and that does not have to be to do with demons. But then it requires a great degree of discernment to determine what is demonic, what is of the person themselves and what is merely echoes of the world through which they have walked. I think real demonic possession is far rarer than many Christians think although demonic influence may occur more often. Influence would come in the form of a foul suggestion at the moment of greatest vulnerability. Like a whisper in the ear of a person vulnerable to that thought it could lead to evil actions. We have all experienced moments of madness when we behaved irrationally and without the usual degree of self control that characterises our existence. As to whether that was just an unhinged moment or demonic influence is the million dollar question. Maybe it does not matter and we should just try to do what is right and draw our strength for that from God.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I doubt very much that you would be able to differentiate a psychiatric illness or personality disorder from demonic possession, if such a thing exists.
Although Psychiatry has specific criteria in the DSM, the very nature of psychiatry leaves its diagnoses vague and somewhat changing. Often a Major Depressive becomes a Bipolar becomes a Schizophreniform disorder.
The historical signs of demonic possession are often quite similar. What I would think is that the sins that psychiatric patients are prone to such as uninhibited behaviour leading to lust, wrath and avarice would lead to demonic possession anyway, as they move away from God. These people would be easy pickings, as it were. I would think that psychiatric illness and demonic possession would go hand in hand.

That being said, I don't really think it is common if it even exists. I have worked closely with the mentally ill and I would not want people to try and exorcise these poor individuals, that would often feed their delusions and would likely do more harm than good.

I have never seen an individual that I thought was demon possessed and as I am a doctor, I would assume people would have brought such individuals to me if they were raving. I am often inclined to think of people in the Bible like the Gadarene Demoniac as mentally ill and cured by Jesus. The passage about Legion and the pigs however, has forced me to at least keep an open mind to the possibility, although I have read ingenious ways where it was read as parable or prophetic.
These are difficult questions as they fall so far outside the pale of normal experience.
 
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mindlight

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I doubt very much that you would be able to differentiate a psychiatric illness or personality disorder from demonic possession, if such a thing exists.
Although Psychiatry has specific criteria in the DSM, the very nature of psychiatry leaves its diagnoses vague and somewhat changing. Often a Major Depressive becomes a Bipolar becomes a Schizophreniform disorder.

A vague and changeable diagnosis followed by dubious and inconclusive results would be a good definition of psychiatry. Just cause people spend years with doped up people who never get to work through their problems does not make them experts on the real issues that these people wrestle with. I sometimes wonder if our neglect of the supernatural is a root cause of the epidemic of "mental health disorders" that characterise the modern age.

The historical signs of demonic possession are often quite similar. What I would think is that the sins that psychiatric patients are prone to such as uninhibited behaviour leading to lust, wrath and avarice would lead to demonic possession anyway, as they move away from God. These people would be easy pickings, as it were. I would think that psychiatric illness and demonic possession would go hand in hand.

Lust , anger and greed are quite common outside mental institutions also and indeed among the political elites of the Western world. But what makes these peoples demons any more acceptable than the ones other people get locked away for in the madhouse. Is it just that they know far better when to conceal their true motivations. Altoften the categorisation of mental health can seem like a power play. One person is locked away while an equally disturbed person gets to rule the nation simply cause he played the game of images better.

That being said, I don't really think it is common if it even exists. I have worked closely with the mentally ill and I would not want people to try and exorcise these poor individuals, that would often feed their delusions and would likely do more harm than good.

A positive focus on the divine rather than a negative focus on the demonic is probably more healthy for the truly broken. If you dwell in the light the shadows fade and darkness is driven away. But even this focus is denied those in publically funded mental health clinics.

I have never seen an individual that I thought was demon possessed and as I am a doctor, I would assume people would have brought such individuals to me if they were raving. I am often inclined to think of people in the Bible like the Gadarene Demoniac as mentally ill and cured by Jesus. The passage about Legion and the pigs however, has forced me to at least keep an open mind to the possibility, although I have read ingenious ways where it was read as parable or prophetic.
These are difficult questions as they fall so far outside the pale of normal experience.

I think it is impossible to read the account of Jesus casting out these demons with anything but a realisation of the objective existence of demons. A legion was more than 5000 men. So if a legion of demons existed in this person their numbers were in the thousands. That there are so many demons revealed in an account of them we can readily accept should open our eyes to the possibility that they exist in greater rather than lesser numbers. Are we simply blind to a reality we would rather not admit to seeing. Because in the modern age the antisupernaturalistic bias of our culture makes us feel foolish if we admit to a belief in powers that cannot be explained in naturalistic terms.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Such external knowledge as with Christian spiritual giftings cannot be explained using a merely selfish or materialistic model.

Selfish???

The schizoid personality discussion has been an incredibly unproductive line of thought.

According to?

Has anyone ever been liberated from their "personal demons" by psychologists in counselling sessions rationalising in this way.

Possibly no one. That wouldn't make the psychologists wrong about causes.

I would not expect an atheist to say anything else.

Then at least I haven't disappointed you.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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ChetSinger

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Do demons exist or are they simply examples of mental ill health and should be treated psychologically? Which comes first the hosting of a demon or a poor state of mental health?

Can you cast a demon out of people today?

How could a legion of demons exist inside a single man (Lk 8:26-39)? Why would they want to dwell in this man only driving him to a solitary place? Is the mission of demons to terrorise as widely as possible or simply to maintain their own existence in some kind of comfort?

Do you have any experience of demons being driven out of yourself or others?
Seven questions in one post is too much for me. But reading both the scriptures and the early church fathers tells me that these beings exist. The ECFs also reveal their origins, in that they are the spirits of dead Nephilim.

Jesus had conversations with them. They knew who he was, calling him "the Son of God". That knowledge didn't come from a mental illness, but from a sentient being who knew who Christ really was.
 
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KWCrazy

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Do demons exist or are they simply examples of mental ill health and should be treated psychologically? Which comes first the hosting of a demon or a poor state of mental health?
My mother was a mental health worker. She had a patient who sought her out and asked that she pray for her to make the demons go away. My mother did, and years later she still thanked her. The woman was still schizophrenic and would always be schizophrenic, but she was no longer tormented by demons. The two are different afflictions.
Can you cast a demon out of people today?
Yes, in the name of Christ, not if you try to do so on your own.
How could a legion of demons exist inside a single man (Lk 8:26-39)?
Demons are non physical. They exist in the spiritual world. Lacking a defined size and shape, they can fit anywhere.
Why would they want to dwell in this man only driving him to a solitary place?
Because they could.
Is the mission of demons to terrorise as widely as possible or simply to maintain their own existence in some kind of comfort?
They are manifestations of hatred. They hate man because man was made in God's image, and they REALLY hate God. Their eternal destiny is the Hell fire. They want to destroy as many as possible along the way.
Do you have any experience of demons being driven out of yourself or others?
Yes.
 
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mindlight

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Selfish???

Yes I think this is a root problem with the atheist diagnosis of reality. The things I say and believe are not merely the product of my inner psyche, the social dimensions of language and relationship must be included and the response to realities that can also include the supernatural. The focus on the self is a major problem here.

Possibly no one. That wouldn't make the psychologists wrong about causes.

As with evolution a scientifically unverifiable diagnosis that makes no sound predictions or prescriptively helpful judgments is pretty much irrelevant.
 
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mindlight

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Seven questions in one post is too much for me. But reading both the scriptures and the early church fathers tells me that these beings exist. The ECFs also reveal their origins, in that they are the spirits of dead Nephilim.

Jesus had conversations with them. They knew who he was, calling him "the Son of God". That knowledge didn't come from a mental illness, but from a sentient being who knew who Christ really was.

We have an example of a mass fall of angels at the time of the Nephilim. That does not exclude the possibility of falls prior to that or following that also. Satan was misbehaving in Eden before the Nephilim fell.
 
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mindlight

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My mother was a mental health worker. She had a patient who sought her out and asked that she pray for her to make the demons go away. My mother did, and years later she still thanked her. The woman was still schizophrenic and would always be schizophrenic, but she was no longer tormented by demons. The two are different afflictions.

Yes, in the name of Christ, not if you try to do so on your own.

Demons are non physical. They exist in the spiritual world. Lacking a defined size and shape, they can fit anywhere.

Because they could.

They are manifestations of hatred. They hate man because man was made in God's image, and they REALLY hate God. Their eternal destiny is the Hell fire. They want to destroy as many as possible along the way.

Yes.

Yes I have a similar experience where a woman was liberated from the foulness and bitterness of a demonic tormentor but remained slightly deranged. Her spirit changed but the mental brokeness remained. But it always puzzled me why God only did half the job in her case when others have been completely healed. Is that payback for years of sin , a Divine response to a limited faith or a reminder to others of their Christian duty to care and concern?
 
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Eudaimonist

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Yes I think this is a root problem with the atheist diagnosis of reality. The things I say and believe are not merely the product of my inner psyche, the social dimensions of language and relationship must be included and the response to realities that can also include the supernatural. The focus on the self is a major problem here.

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that one's life experiences are an unimportant influence on one's psyche. Of course they are. However, that doesn't mean that one's "demons" aren't a product of one's psyche. Sure, they are a "response to realities", but not necessarily anything supernatural.

So, no, it's not anything to do with being focused on self. Our selves are influenced by our experiences.

As with evolution a scientifically unverifiable diagnosis that makes no sound predictions or prescriptively helpful judgments is pretty much irrelevant.

Evolution does make sound predictions and prescriptively helpful judgments. So does psychology, even if curing a mental illness may be difficult in some cases.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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KWCrazy

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However, that doesn't mean that one's "demons" aren't a product of one's psyche. Sure, they are a "response to realities", but not necessarily anything supernatural.
Obviously, you know nothing about demons.
Not only did Christ cast out demons, but His disciples did as well. In Mark 9:38-41 there is a story about a contemporaneous man casting out demons in the name of Christ though he wasn't among the followers. The church never stopped the battle against demonic possession and it continues to this day.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I have just one question for "excorcism" believers...

How do you objectively tell the difference between a psychiatric disorder or psychological problem and an actual demonic posession?

In the West since the middle ages there are typically four things which are looked for: unnatural strength, glossolalia, having knowledge which the victim couldn't be aware of, and an intense aversion to religious symbols.

Though I think there's probably a lot of popular confusion concerning exorcisms, for example most will almost certainly think Hollywood or those television "ministries" with all the fanfare.

To offer some perspective, in more traditional churches every Baptism is an exorcism, an intrinsic component of the Baptismal liturgy is the Minor Exorcism.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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KWCrazy

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But it always puzzled me why God only did half the job in her case when others have been completely healed. Is that payback for years of sin , a Divine response to a limited faith or a reminder to others of their Christian duty to care and concern?
God doesn't remove all sickness, cancer and death from the world because that is the curse of man's sin. It doesn't mean any particular person did anything wrong. Babies die every day and they committed no sin. God only promised that He would never leave us; not that the going would be easy. Demonic possession and schizophrenia are different despite the attempts by some to blend the two.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Obviously, you know nothing about demons.
Not only did Christ cast out demons, but His disciples did as well.

Even if I were to accept the existence of an historical Jesus, no one knows that Jesus actually did cast out literal demons. Yes, we have Mark telling a story which may or may not have been intended to be some allegory, but that's about all we have.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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