Exile from the Garden of Eden. Whose fault was it?

There's a few things that you might have missed.
1. It wasn't an apple that they ate. The Bible doesn't say what type of fruit is was.
2. Nothing happened when Eve ate of the fruit. It was only when man ate it that everything went haywire.
3. In Gen 3:2 where it says, "The woman said to the serpent, We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden", God never told her that, it was Adam and you can see that Adam added to what God said when Eve told the serpent, "and you must not touch it".
4. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure when God says not to do something He means it. Adam and Eve were wrong period. They had the command to NOT EAT of the tree but they did it anyway.
They were exiled because they could have eaten from the tree of life, which if they did, they would have been in a sinless state for all eternity.
5. Just because God didn't mention satan doesn't mean He's not omnipotent.
6. Your ideas are not fairly accurate. As for blaming God for punishing Adam's descendants, it wasn't God, it was Adam through his disobedience.

1. They tried to pass the blame as well.
2. Perhaps the whole point of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is that one can only attain the wisdom it promises by resisting the temptation.

MechChicken said:

I would like to start with saying that this post doesn't argue weather god should be worshiped or not, only that if it was fair for god to do what he did.

With this thread I would like to explore whose fault it was involving the exile of humans from the Garden of Eden.

After reading the story about Adam and Eve, I have come to a few conclusions which are my opinions of what went on.

Was it Adam or Eve's fault?

Nope. Most of us here know what happened in the garden of Eden (according to the bible), and it has seemed that everyone accepts the idea that it was Adam and Eve's fault that they ate the apple. Furthermore, fine with the idea of us paying for what Adam and Eve have done.

However I find it hard to believe that Adam and Eve were very much in the wrong. I believe this because Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil (They would need to eat from the tree of "knowledge of good and evil" to have any). They had pure innocence. They would never think of someone coming to deceive them, so anything that anyone said, in their eyes, must be true. So when the snake came to tell Eve it was OK to eat the apple, she believed him.

So, did eve purposefully go against god at this point when she ate the apple? Nope

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Ahh here is where you have an issue. She was told by Adam not to do that. No matter who said what after that fact, she deliberately went against Adam by doing what he had told her not to do.

So in this situation, yes she is to blame as she purposefully went against Adam, who was relaying a God ordained command, In this front, she had sided against her husband (Adam) in favor of a snake (a trickster, con-man, or any countless legions of swindlers), ultimately, she took the word of a stranger over the word of her beloved. She had the choice to obey her husband and chose not to.

At this point I noticed that god never said that he would be displeased if they ate the fruit, only that they would die if they were to eat it. So when the snake told Eve that she wouldn't die, Eve really had no other reason to not eat the fruits. She ate it and then told Adam it was OK to eat it (remembering the idea that he is innocent, he believed her) and gave him some. Neither of these people knew that they were being tricked until after they ate.

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This is incorrect, they were given a command to follow, and chose to disobey it.

You are also, falsely under the impression that Adam would under any circumstance think God had lied to him about the death sentence. This was Adam, he walked with God, he had received direct orders from his Creator that to eat that fruit was a death sentence. When Eve came back after eating the fruit he knew Eve was dead and walking.

There was no question in Adam's mind that Eve would die for this, it was just now a matter of when and how.

Again, these are my opinions, but I think that the ideas that I have come up with are fairly accurate.

What do you think?

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Take what I just said to you, and now re-apply it, and think of the rest of the story, and see how it matches up.

I look forward to seeing what you come up with, as I you are one of the few people that have show some great insight into this book of the bible.

God Bless

All of human history is a play written and directed by God. What happened in the garden was exactly what God planned in order to begin his plan of 'restoring all things'. Simply put the banishment from the garden was a type of the casting down (out of heaven) of Lucifer. Adam is the God-type, Eve the Lucifer-type. When God cast Lucifer out He himself also lost 'paradise', as did Adam.

Good thinking! Let's pick this apart:

MechChicken said:

everyone accepts the idea that it was Adam and Eve's fault that they ate the apple. Furthermore, fine with the idea of us paying for what Adam and Eve have done.

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As has been pointed out, please that "apple" reference. Do we know it even referred to a physical "eating" of anything at all? Quite likely not.

Next up: "everybody?" Not even close! Not even among Christians.

Next up: none of us have paid for what WE have done. How could we possibly pay for what A & E did? Need to re-think on this point.

However I find it hard to believe that Adam and Eve were very much in the wrong. I believe this because Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil. So when the snake came to tell Eve it was OK to eat the apple, she believed him. [/quote]

FALSE, nope and WRONG! You're using our modern day English word "knowledge" like that is what is meant in the story. It simply doesn't mean that at all. They very much had intellectual understanding of the difference between right and wrong; what G-d said is right, and if you violate that you DIE. They very well knew what death meant as well as any of us, having never experienced it.

The really amazing thing about this is they did NOT die immediately. You seem to have overlooked that?? (That would be called Mercy, btw

MechChicken said:

So, did eve purposefully go against god at this point when she ate the apple?

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She very well knew she was violating G-d's command. Perhaps she was truly deceived as she claimed, but THE POINT IS - IT DOES NOT MATTER.

You seem to have overlooked that?!?

MechChicken said:

Before she talked to the snake she was committed to following God's orders:

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We don't really know that. And the fact she was confused on what those orders were could be entirely due to satan's presence - which apparently you haven't learned to recognize.

MechChicken said:

At this point I noticed that god never said that he would be displeased if they ate the fruit, only that they would die if they were to eat it. So when the snake told Eve that she wouldn't die, Eve really had no other reason to not eat the fruits. She ate it and then told Adam it was OK to eat it (remembering the idea that he is innocent, he believed her) and gave him some. Neither of these people knew that they were being tricked until after they ate.

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Ummm ... that part in red? That's the whole moral of the story, which basically nobody in the Judeo-Christian tradition believed ever really happened until (comparatively) recently. Eve had EVERY reason: it's called the Word of God!!!

Adam very much knew he was in the wrong. In his heart, he had already left God in favor of Eve. For him, it was a very conscious and deliberate choice.

"And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. Genesis 2:23 And Adam said, This [is] now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

MechChicken said:

Was it the devil's fault?[/B]

Yup. His plan was to directly get Adam and Eve into trouble.

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Again, you fail to perceive the moral of the story. Each and every one of us will face the same challenge in one way or another, and we already have. And instead of "striking us dead w/ lightning" or somesuch, G-d makes a way, according to His Mercy.

What we do is our fault, regardless of the bluster thrown at us by the prince of the powers of the air. And G-d is very aware of the difference btw evil we intentionally cook up on our own, and falling into a perilous trap set by the enemy. What He wants is for us to listen to HIM.

You seem to have overlooked that part too?!?

MechChicken said:

Was it God's fault?

Yup. There is a reason that they lock up chemicals such as nitroglycerin, agent orange, and Napalm. The safest thing to do would be to lock them up... Like the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. If it was so dangerous to eat from then God shouldn't have put it in the garden, let alone the center. According to the bible it was attractive and tasty looking. That's like putting a steak on the ground and then beating your dog when he eats it.

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Again you fail to perceive the moral of the story. We ARE GOING to face temptation. 100% guaranteed! Haven't you found this to be true?

All right then. You want to philosophize why? I can address that, as G-d has shown me this all the way through, right to the core. Doesn't change the facts you know for yourself though; nobody escapes temptation.

MechChicken said:

When god finds out about Adam and Eve eating the fruit, he starts handing out punishments. But he never even mentions Satan

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Snake = satan. It's called an analogy. You've never heard of that? How 'bout symbolism? Oh, and G-d knew right away when it happened, He didn't "find out."

MechChicken said:

He also tacks on something that makes me just shake my head. He makes all of their descendants have the same punishment.

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You got this part wrong too? Where'd you come up with this idea? Or are you just trying to make me shake my head

MechChicken said:

I would like to start with saying that this post doesn't argue weather god should be worshiped or not, only that if it was fair for god to do what he did.

With this thread I would like to explore whose fault it was involving the exile of humans from the Garden of Eden.

After reading the story about Adam and Eve, I have come to a few conclusions which are my opinions of what went on.

Was it Adam or Eve's fault?

Nope. Most of us here know what happened in the garden of Eden (according to the bible), and it has seemed that everyone accepts the idea that it was Adam and Eve's fault that they ate the apple. Furthermore, fine with the idea of us paying for what Adam and Eve have done.

However I find it hard to believe that Adam and Eve were very much in the wrong. I believe this because Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil (They would need to eat from the tree of "knowledge of good and evil" to have any). They had pure innocence. They would never think of someone coming to deceive them, so anything that anyone said, in their eyes, must be true. So when the snake came to tell Eve it was OK to eat the apple, she believed him.

So, did eve purposefully go against god at this point when she ate the apple? Nope. Before she talked to the snake she was committed to following god's orders:

"The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "" (Genesis 3:2)​

At this point I noticed that god never said that he would be displeased if they ate the fruit, only that they would die if they were to eat it. So when the snake told Eve that she wouldn't die, Eve really had no other reason to not eat the fruits. She ate it and then told Adam it was OK to eat it (remembering the idea that he is innocent, he believed her) and gave him some. Neither of these people knew that they were being tricked until after they ate.

Was it the snake's fault?

From the information I listed above, it would seem that it's the snake's fault for the exile of humans from the Garden of Eden. Should Christians go outside to start stomping all of the snakes because they might start telling us to kill people? Nope. I'm fairly sure that it's the general consensus in the Christian community that the snake was possessed by the devil. Poor snake.

Was it the devil's fault?

Yup. His plan was to directly get Adam and Eve into trouble.

Was it God's fault?

Yup. There is a reason that they lock up chemicals such as nitroglycerin, agent orange, and Napalm. If those chemicals were easily accessible by people, there might not be any problems at first, as they would be told to stay away from them. However, if anyone were to handle any of these chemicals the wrong way, there would be drastic consequences. Eventually someone will. Accidentally or on purpose, someone will mess with these chemicals and there would be problems. The safest thing to do would be to lock them up... Like the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. If it was so dangerous to eat from then God shouldn't have put it in the garden, let alone the center. According to the bible it was attractive and tasty looking. That's like putting a steak on the ground and then beating your dog when he eats it.

When god finds out about Adam and Eve eating the fruit, he starts handing out punishments. He punishes everyone but the ones who are responsible. He makes the land hostile for the humans, increases the pain of birth for the women, and takes away the legs from the snake. He apparently also made some animals hunt each other. But he never even mentions Satan (I thought he was omnipotent). He also tacks on something that makes me just shake my head. He makes all of their descendants have the same punishment. This just bewilders me. He not only punished the wrong people, but he punished their descendants. Each descendant having even less to do with what happened on that day, yet they are still punished. That's like reacting to someone in a crowd calling you a name by finding the family tree of the closest person to you, punch them, and then punch everyone on their family tree for what they might or might not have done.

Is it your fault?

Nope. Apparently a lot of people feel that they need to feel sorry for being human. I find this weird. You had nothing to do with Adam or Eve and would probably do everything in your power to stop them if you had the chance.

Again, these are my opinions, but I think that the ideas that I have come up with are fairly accurate.

What do you think?

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You have made an assumption that God was to blame for someone else rebelling against Him (hence you say He shouldn't have let Lucifer live and shouldn't have planted His own tree in His own garden - highly judgmental for a non-Christian).

In fact by taking this POV your anger is a sign of rebellion against a very simple and direct testimony He has given us, in other words you are repeating what Adam and Eve did first, does this make you any better than them, or any better than God for having conceived and made the very capacity and tolerance for rebellion?

Why don't you accept that because everyone allows sin into the world, there is no way the human can be perfect forever. Only by the forgiveness (fore-give-ness) of Jesus Christ can the human ever be redeemed from the doom of certain consequences that were plainly stated in the beginning.

Just stop trying to blame God for whatever you don't like and get your head in a good space, it can't be healthy for you to have so much blame aimed at God when He's been perfectly reasonable in His role and there are certain other parties (Satan and one's self) at blame.

Dear MechChicken. Adam and Eve were innocent until they ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. God had warned them and after they ate of the fruit they should`nt have eaten they knew the difference between Good, and Not Good. They had to learn to say NO! to all selfish and unloving acts, or words. They were banned to Earth, where temptations of all kinds would surround them day and night. They moved farther and farther away from God, until Jesus came and showed us how God is really, and also paid the prize which God`s HolyLaw demanded. Jesus died that we might live. Whose fault was it that we were banished to Earth? At first glance it was Adam`s and Eve`s disobedience, but it was also necessary for us to learn to say NO to all temptations, which life on Earth, would throw at us. We have to learn to be overcomers, to say No to all sin and wrongdoings, and Yes to loving God with all our beings, and also loving all others, as we love ourselves. All we say or do which is without love, is sin. And God wants selfless love and also forgiveness as God has forgiven us. Jesus showed us the way: in fact Jesus is the Way. I say this humbly and with love, MechChicken. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

MechChicken said:

I would like to start with saying that this post doesn't argue weather god should be worshiped or not, only that if it was fair for god to do what he did.

With this thread I would like to explore whose fault it was involving the exile of humans from the Garden of Eden.

After reading the story about Adam and Eve, I have come to a few conclusions which are my opinions of what went on.

Was it Adam or Eve's fault?

Nope. Most of us here know what happened in the garden of Eden (according to the bible), and it has seemed that everyone accepts the idea that it was Adam and Eve's fault that they ate the apple. Furthermore, fine with the idea of us paying for what Adam and Eve have done.

However I find it hard to believe that Adam and Eve were very much in the wrong. I believe this because Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil (They would need to eat from the tree of "knowledge of good and evil" to have any). They had pure innocence. They would never think of someone coming to deceive them, so anything that anyone said, in their eyes, must be true. So when the snake came to tell Eve it was OK to eat the apple, she believed him.

So, did eve purposefully go against god at this point when she ate the apple? Nope. Before she talked to the snake she was committed to following god's orders:

"The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "" (Genesis 3:2)​

At this point I noticed that god never said that he would be displeased if they ate the fruit, only that they would die if they were to eat it. So when the snake told Eve that she wouldn't die, Eve really had no other reason to not eat the fruits. She ate it and then told Adam it was OK to eat it (remembering the idea that he is innocent, he believed her) and gave him some. Neither of these people knew that they were being tricked until after they ate.

Was it the snake's fault?

From the information I listed above, it would seem that it's the snake's fault for the exile of humans from the Garden of Eden. Should Christians go outside to start stomping all of the snakes because they might start telling us to kill people? Nope. I'm fairly sure that it's the general consensus in the Christian community that the snake was possessed by the devil. Poor snake.

Was it the devil's fault?

Yup. His plan was to directly get Adam and Eve into trouble.

Was it God's fault?

Yup. There is a reason that they lock up chemicals such as nitroglycerin, agent orange, and Napalm. If those chemicals were easily accessible by people, there might not be any problems at first, as they would be told to stay away from them. However, if anyone were to handle any of these chemicals the wrong way, there would be drastic consequences. Eventually someone will. Accidentally or on purpose, someone will mess with these chemicals and there would be problems. The safest thing to do would be to lock them up... Like the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. If it was so dangerous to eat from then God shouldn't have put it in the garden, let alone the center. According to the bible it was attractive and tasty looking. That's like putting a steak on the ground and then beating your dog when he eats it.

When god finds out about Adam and Eve eating the fruit, he starts handing out punishments. He punishes everyone but the ones who are responsible. He makes the land hostile for the humans, increases the pain of birth for the women, and takes away the legs from the snake. He apparently also made some animals hunt each other. But he never even mentions Satan (I thought he was omnipotent). He also tacks on something that makes me just shake my head. He makes all of their descendants have the same punishment. This just bewilders me. He not only punished the wrong people, but he punished their descendants. Each descendant having even less to do with what happened on that day, yet they are still punished. That's like reacting to someone in a crowd calling you a name by finding the family tree of the closest person to you, punch them, and then punch everyone on their family tree for what they might or might not have done.

Is it your fault?

Nope. Apparently a lot of people feel that they need to feel sorry for being human. I find this weird. You had nothing to do with Adam or Eve and would probably do everything in your power to stop them if you had the chance.

Again, these are my opinions, but I think that the ideas that I have come up with are fairly accurate.

What do you think?

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Why do you assume that their is "fault?" Perhaps everything is going as Planned, and their is no fault to be had.

Or maybe the creation story is myth that expresses spiritual truths and so picking the story at face value apart doesn't help

There is a great deal of information we can draw from the Adam and Eve story. As some have already said Eve was the one that fell to the temping words of satan.
1. Adam and Eve where the best human representatives we could have since they had the best genes possible and were parented to adult hold (programmed by God) by the best parent you could have. That does not mean God programmed into them to do only what was right, because A&E had free will.
2. God put man where He really wants man to be (in a wonderful Garden like heaven on earth), but God wants to give man the much greater gift of Godly type Love, but this gift cannot be just created in man (instinctive) for that would be robotic type love. God cannot force man to accept his gift of Love (love me or I shoot) for then the love would not be Godly type Love. God can only do what He can to help man to accept His free undeserving unconditional gift of Love as it was given.
3. The sin Eve did would be expected and it is the same way most of us start out sinning, we lust, covey, make selfish decisions, do not seek counseling, feel we are being held back by our care takers, want stuff we know we should not have, are lazy not doing what we should be doing in by helping others, wander to where we should be avoiding, and lessen to those that support us being selfish.
4. A lot is made out of the idea that Adam was “with” Eve at the time of her sin, but that might have more to do with the definition of “with” being used at this time. A&E had an arranged marriage, but God made the perfect mate for Adam, that Adam would come to realize over a short period of time. By the time of Eve sinning Adam and Eve where true partners fully supporting each other (they were “with” and not “against” each other).
5. Adam’s sin had to do with his love for Eve Gen. 3 : 17 … "Because you listened to your wife…”. And we know it was different: 1 Tim. 2: 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. I see the A&E story to be the love of “Romeo and Juliet” with Adam not wanting to live without Eve and wanting to go where ever she was going. Adam loved Eve more than he Loved God.
6. The bottom line is the Garden type situation is a lousy place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective. It is good for A&E and all of us to see that through their experience and it is good to see where God wants us to be. outside the Garden after sinning A&E have a huge reason to accept God’s Love in the form of forgiveness of their sin, they must trust (believe/faith) God’s Love, they must have hope of a better life, and they now have a way to express their Godly Love in serving needy people (like God).
Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to obey (the Garden) or where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on His grace?
Lots of other ideas here and I might not address them all so please follow by asking questions I have not addressed for you. I will start with the objectives and go to Adam and Eve:
First off any command or direction given by God can be considered man’s objective, but when I try to develop man’s mission statement that all objectives flow from; I come up with: “Love God and others with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy.”
God’s objective (mostly from Rm. 8: 28) is: “God is doing all He can to help willing (those that Love Him or will Love Him also I refer to these people as “good”) fulfill their earthly objective.
The reason for God to create humans in the first place: God’s Love would compel God to make agents that could Love like God Loves. (Some agents do accept God’s Love.)
Obtaining Godly type Love is extremely easy, yet difficult for man, because man is created with a needed wonderful instinct for survival which also creates self seeking desires (selfishness). Man is not instinctively given Godly type Love (that would be a robotic type of Love) and God does not force His Love on man (Love or I torture you). Love is offered as a free undeserving and unconditional gift (charity). The problem is man’s ego prevents man form excepting “Charity”, especially when the giver has to pay a high price to give the charity.
The easiest way (and only initial way) for man to obtain Godly type Love is through accepting God’s forgiveness and thus “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”
Adam and Eve began without any knowledge of “good and evil”, but did have a rule for a wrong and a consequence for doing the wrong. Adam and Eve are most likely the best of all human representatives and given just one rule to follow, they failed. ). A&E would have accepted God’s love to them as a wonderful parent’s love to wonderful obedient children and did not need to be humble and accept charity. So the problem is they did not have Godly type Love since they did not need it (they had wonderful child to wonderful parent type love). If they had Godly type Love they would have obeyed (…if you Love me you will obey me…). The easiest and maybe the only way to initially accept God’s Love is by accepting God’s forgiveness. God does not desire us to sin, but well quench His own desire in order to provide us with the best way for us to accept His Love.
The “knowledge of good and evil” provides A&E and all of us with tons of ways to sin. These sins become burdens and we seek relief. God’s forgiveness (Love) provides the only true relief.
1. “He could have wiped us all away and start over with more Obedient subject...” In God’s words Adam was very good so what is “very good” by God’s standards?
Why did God not start over?
Could God have created better humans and could God have created more Christs?
I can tell you: “if you put any humans in a place where by their own human powers must obey God with satan around, over an infinite amount of time” they will fail. Do you think God was not aware of this?
2. “If you Love me you will obey me…” so since Adam and Eve did not obey God does this show they did not Love God with “Godly type Love”?
3. If we define Godly type Love as: Everything Christ said and did + 1 Cor 13 and 1 John 4 to help us, is this type Love instinctive (robotic) or can it be forced on you (Love me or I torture you)? If God is the source of this Love and we cannot have it instinctively than how do we get it? If this Love is a free undeserving and unconditional gift that comes at a huge sacrifice for the giver does that mean we would have to accept it as “Charity”? What does it take for humans to correctly accept Charity?
4. Why are there these big differences between heaven and the Garden: satan was in the Garden, there was the tree of Good and Evil and they were sexual beings with human desires?
5. Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to obey God or would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your accepting God’s forgiveness?

A view of Adam and Eve that seems to me to be quite logical is that there are two kinds of 'free will' you can have.

In the first kind God protects your free will. So you will always see people and God the way that God does. You won't think about hurting people because God will protect your understanding so you will see people as always worthy of love, for example. You only have knowledge of good, not good and evil.

In the second kind of free will you get to decide what's good and evil for yourself. You can decide it's okay to steal because you've had a hard life, or to hurt someone in an argument because you have a 'righteous anger', and don't need to look at a situation the way that God does. You have knowledge of good and evil.

The first kind is a 'dependent' free will, the second is an 'independent'.

I think both kinds of free will need to allow for the possibility for people to reject God and go their own way, for the sake of free will and God's respect of us. In the first kind you can choose to 'opt out' of God's protection and 'transfer' to the second kind. Rejecting God with the second kind can be more direct.

I think the tree had to be there because it represents a necessary possibility and this system. Also, I am guessing that everyone would have made the same choice as Adam and Eve if they had been there, so God just short cuts the process (it makes God seem more fair anyway) and we start with the second kind. Maybe if you wouldn't have chosen the second kind you get to be an angel? (but we don't know).

MechChicken said:

IHowever I find it hard to believe that Adam and Eve were very much in the wrong. I believe this because Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil (They would need to eat from the tree of "knowledge of good and evil" to have any). They had pure innocence.

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The story is about disobedience of God. It's not about innocence. Rather, Adam was given a clear order, directive, command by God not to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. He passed that order (with modification) to Eve.

First Eve, and then Adam, disobeyed God. All the rest is excuses as to why they disobeyed. For the story, that doesn't matter. What matters is that they did disobey. It doesn't matter if it was "on purpose", or Eve was deceived, or Adam was a wimp. The bottom line remains the same: God commanded and they disobeyed.

The result is that they were cut off from God. The rest of scripture is God trying to reestablish contact.

I think the important thing is to put the event in perspective. God planned the whole episode, thus it couldn't have proceeded any other way. It is God's plan to 'remarry' vicariously through his son, to a 'bride' who will ALWAYS be faithful. (His first 'marriage' didn't go so well.) That's what this whole human experience thing is about.

Live_free said:

It was the story's god's fault. An all powerful, all perfect god made everything. Made a talking snake, made Satan, made sin, made adam and eve, made the garden, then let them sin and destroy it all. And by let, I mean let, he could have helped, he could have done a million things a perfect god would have. But he didn't. The story in and of itself and the "fact" in this story believed by millions that an omnimax god created things such as sin, such as Satan, and etc. Shows he is either a buffoon and therefore not all knowing, or just made up. Either way violates his attributes, of which, not all can co-exist.

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...And this from the one who claims not to want to d-bate on this site the existence of God...

Not only do you need a dictionary, but a look at the rules would really open your eyes ...

Live_free said:

That is a comment not a debate. Do you need a dictionary and definition of the word debate? :3

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de·bate

   /dɪˈbeɪt/ Show Spelled [dih-beyt] Show IPA noun, verb, -bat·ed, -bat·ing.
–noun 1. a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints: a debate in the Senate on farm price supports.

2. a formal contest in which the affirmative and negative sides of a proposition are advocated by opposing speakers.

3. deliberation; consideration.

4. Archaic . strife; contention.


–verb (used without object) 5. to engage in argument or discussion, as in a legislative or public assembly: When we left, the men were still debating.

6. to participate in a formal debate.

7. to deliberate; consider: I debated with myself whether to tell them the truth or not.

8. Obsolete . to fight; quarrel.


–verb (used with object) 9. to argue or discuss (a question, issue, or the like), as in a legislative or public assembly: They debated the matter of free will.

10. to dispute or disagree about: The homeowners debated the value of a road on the island.

11. to engage in formal argumentation or disputation with (another person, group, etc.): Jones will debate Smith. Harvard will debate Princeton.

12. to deliberate upon; consider: He debated his decision in the matter.

13. Archaic . to contend for or over.



You taking one position, and me taking the other places us in a debate.. Or so says the dictionary.

Live_free said:

It was the story's god's fault. An all powerful, all perfect god made everything. Made a talking snake, made satan, made sin, made adam and eve, made the garden, then let them sin and destroy it all. And by let, I mean let, he could have helped, he could have done a million things a perfect god would have. But he didn't. The story in and of itself and the "fact" in this story believed by millions that an omnimax god created things such as sin, such as satan, and etc. Shows he is either a buffoon and therefore not all knowing, or just made up. Either way violates his attributes, of which, not all can co-exist.

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Or maybe the story is a myth with spiritual truths and therefore the unlying meaning should be read, not what is the surface?

Live_free said:

It was the story's god's fault. An all powerful, all perfect god made everything. Made a talking snake, made satan, made sin, made adam and eve, made the garden, then let them sin and destroy it all. And by let, I mean let, he could have helped, he could have done a million things a perfect god would have. But he didn't. The story in and of itself and the "fact" in this story believed by millions that an omnimax god created things such as sin, such as satan, and etc. Shows he is either a buffoon and therefore not all knowing, or just made up. Either way violates his attributes, of which, not all can co-exist.

Click to expand...

Or perhaps He knows exactly what He is doing. By your analysis no good football coach, with his team losing, would deliberately allow the other team to score yet again under any circumstances, and yet they do, which seems completely out of character. The history of mankind is just a razor-thin slice across the timeline of eternity. He is doing something transitory with us on a planet that has been rocked with destructions, and then covered with a mantle of temporary life that itself reflects carnage on a monumental scale. Why then would Adam and Eve remain perfect in an environment, of His making, that reflects chaos and destruction. The beginning of mankind, in the persons of Adam and Eve, is the beginning of God's plan to restore a damaged spiritual Kingdom, not create an eternal physical/mortal kingdom on planet earth.